Thread: If you've not felt it in waking life, the sensation in an LD is inaccurate...

I get that sensation is communicated to the brain, from the receptors in your hand, via the nervous system as electrical pulses or messages. But being able to mimic those messages is what we're talking about here, not the delivery method.

So the question is how can you, or your brain, or even a computer hooked up to your brain, mimic those messages or electrical pulses if you haven't felt it?

In the case of a computer delivering those messages to your brain, the computer would have to have recorded the attributes of those messages prior to attempting to deliver them. That would be the same as a person having previously experienced the feeling which their brain is trying the mimic.

Read up on "mirror neurons" my friends.

Just because you personally have not had the experience (ie done it yourself) does not mean you haven't experienced it. And this does not mean your brain can't accurately mimic it. The brain is actually VERY GOOD at filling in blanks & making predictions... that is its MAIN FUNCTION. If theories about mirror neurons are correct, while watching someone perform X action my brain is replicating the firing pattern required to actually perform that action. I have had the experience of everything I've ever watched in a movie or seen someone do firsthand. I'm confident my brain can fill in all of the other blanks rather well.

Originally Posted by aelephant

I'm confident my brain can fill in all of the other blanks rather well.

Test time.
Do you believe your brain could accurately mimic the physical feelings and emotional effects of giving birth to a child?

Originally Posted by aelephant

Read up on "mirror neurons" my friends.

Just because you personally have not had the experience (ie done it yourself) does not mean you haven't experienced it. And this does not mean your brain can't accurately mimic it. The brain is actually VERY GOOD at filling in blanks & making predictions... that is its MAIN FUNCTION. If theories about mirror neurons are correct, while watching someone perform X action my brain is replicating the firing pattern required to actually perform that action. I have had the experience of everything I've ever watched in a movie or seen someone do firsthand. I'm confident my brain can fill in all of the other blanks rather well.

I've not bothered to check again, so I may be wrong; however, are mirror neurons not concerned solely with replicating the action alone, and not the sensation or emotional response?

Foul wrote:

But being able to mimic those messages is what we're talking about here, not the delivery method.

So the question is how can you, or your brain, or even a computer hooked up to your brain, mimic those messages or electrical pulses if you haven't felt it?

To further clarify this, the brain knows the electric pulse for liquid, gas, solid materials. It also knows the electric pulse for wet objects, dry objects, smooth objects, scratchy objects, soft objects, moving objects, standing objects, tall objects, short objects, etc. So since the brain already has these objects pulses in its database and experiences are made up of these things, I fail to understand how the brain can not mimic new experiences, of course there could be room for a few mistakes.

Foul wrote:

Do you believe your brain could accurately mimic the physical feelings and emotional effects of giving birth to a child?

Simple actually. Experiences and what not can be transferred from one human to another. For example from a mother to a child. So since the mother has experienced, it could easily be replicated in the child since we have transfer of "material" of the father and mother to the child. Of course, it is not certain that the experience of giving birth is actually transferred to the child, it is very plausible.

That is one way it could be replicated. Another way is this. We have the material, the person giving birth, then we have the child. The child has a "soft" skin, it has a certain "size" and may also be "wet". So far you can not disagree that the brain can mimic something soft, with certain size, and wetness. Once you have the "child", Insert the "child" into the person giving birth.

Now it is time to give birth. I would imagine the emotions of this person to be in panic, fear, and excitement, I might be off a little, but I am not trying to go for 100% accuracy here. Then simply have the child come out of the "vagina".

The physical feeling is pain. It could also be a euphoric feeling due to the brain responding to the pain with chemicals such as dopamine or a pain killer.


Simple right? What part of this do you think the brain can not do. If you also notice, I am a programmer, when you get into that kind of stuff, this will make much more sense to you and you will see the sense in it and plausibality of it.

Originally Posted by elucid

Foul wrote:




To further clarify this, the brain knows the electric pulse for liquid, gas, solid materials. It also knows the electric pulse for wet objects, dry objects, smooth objects, scratchy objects, soft objects, moving objects, standing objects, tall objects, short objects, etc. So since the brain already has these objects pulses in its database and experiences are made up of these things, I fail to understand how the brain can not mimic new experiences, of course there could be room for a few mistakes.

Yeah, qualitatively speaking the brain should be able to mimic those things (e.g. a type of sensation such as pain); however, it's the quantitative aspect of a sensation (e.g. the intensity) that is difficult to predict accurately.

Well you've come in to contact with dry, wet, smooth, scratchy, etc, of course you're going to have information on those feelings stored in your brain. So when you have a dream about a smooth stone or a dry scratchy towel, you draw on that information. On the other hand, that which you haven't experienced hasn't had information about it stored. You'd need to mimic the feeling and who knows if your brain is accurately portraying these unknown feelings until you actually go and experience them, first hand, at a later date?

It would be like saying a new born baby's brain can mimic sensation's it's never come into contact with. That's a little hard for me to accept. But then some people would argue it's possible because of genetic memory (which I don't think has been proven to exist).

I'm not sure I'd even go that far, Wolfwood.

I mean, if you've felt scratchy and smooth and all number of basic feelings then you can use the stored information to simulate a situation that involves those feelings. But — and I think this is what the OP was about — if you've not felt smooth then how do you simulate smooth? If you've not felt scratchy how do you simulate scratchy? The required information isn't there for these extremely basic feelings and so I wouldn't think it possible..

Originally Posted by Foul

I'm not sure I'd even go that far, Wolfwood.

I mean, if you've felt scratchy and smooth and all number of basic feelings then you can use the stored information to simulate a situation that involves those feelings. But — and I think this is what the OP was about — if you've not felt smooth then how do you simulate smooth? If you've not felt scratchy how do you simulate scratchy? The required information isn't there for these extremely basic feelings and so I wouldn't think it possible..

Ah, yes, that's what I meant. If you've experienced it. I just read the other page, and you basically said the same.

So, if you've been stabbed without breaking the surface of the skin, you could mimic the type of feeling, e.g. pain, but not the intensity of an actual stabbing where the skin is broken.

Foul wrote:

I

mean, if you've felt scratchy and smooth and all number of basic feelings then you can use the stored information to simulate a situation that involves those feelings. But — and I think this is what the OP was about — if you've not felt smooth then how do you simulate smooth? If you've not felt scratchy how do you simulate scratchy? The required information isn't there for these extremely basic feelings and so I wouldn't think it possible..

I definitely agree with you there, but understand it this way. If feeling is just a combination of electric pulse, then you do not need the feeling to find the electric pulse, you can just merely try different combination of electric pulses and give those "feelings" a name, such as happy, sad, etc. Now we are getting into how the brain can find a certain combination of electric pulse that is attributed to a certain feeling.

Basically, what needs to be understood here is that new feelings and experiences can be mimicked without actually having to experience them before. Even if those feelings or experiences were generated randomely by combination of electric pulses.

Originally Posted by elucid

Foul wrote:

I

I definitely agree with you there, but understand it this way. If feeling is just a combination of electric pulse, then you do not need the feeling to find the electric pulse, you can just merely try different combination of electric pulses and give those "feelings" a name, such as happy, sad, etc. Now we are getting into how the brain can find a certain combination of electric pulse that is attributed to a certain feeling.

Basically, what needs to be understood here is that new feelings and experiences can be mimicked without actually having to experience them before. Even if those feelings or experiences were generated randomely by combination of electric pulses.

Yes, I agree in that respect. It can be conceptualised as an invariable algorithm that will generate a multitude of specific population responses - each person has the same algorithm, and so potentially can feel the same response; however, it would be a hit and miss game without a stored response.

Originally Posted by elucid

Foul wrote:
I
I definitely agree with you there, but understand it this way. If feeling is just a combination of electric pulse, then you do not need the feeling to find the electric pulse, you can just merely try different combination of electric pulses and give those "feelings" a name, such as happy, sad, etc. Now we are getting into how the brain can find a certain combination of electric pulse that is attributed to a certain feeling.

Basically, what needs to be understood here is that new feelings and experiences can be mimicked without actually having to experience them before. Even if those feelings or experiences were generated randomely by combination of electric pulses.

You're probably right. However I wouldn't pretend to know how you could achieve that. Stick your finger in the light socket and hope you find the electrical impulse for happyness?

Wolfwood wrote:

So, if you've been stabbed without breaking the surface of the skin, you could mimic the type of feeling, e.g. pain, but not the intensity of an actual stabbing where the skin is broken.

I am of this opinion, that the brain can mimic every single detail of reality down to the last particle.

That being said, I dont understand how the brain can not mimic a broken skin, it shouldnt be hard. People have actually morphed into other creatures in their dreams, so just mimicking a flab of skin hanging out with with some red "color" for blood and a liquidy sensation should not be a big deal for brain.

however, it's the quantitative aspect of a sensation (e.g. the intensity) that is difficult to predict accurately.

In reality, people feel sensations at different intensities, it could be that you could get stabbed in reality but the brain wont let you feel it, having then understood that the brain can control the intensity of such feeling in reality, it shouldnt be too hard to understand that it can be done in dreams as well. You are right though about the accuracy, but then again, if we have a standard of intensity in reality, which we dont seem to have, then that standard could be used in dreams.

Stick your finger in the light socket and hope you find the electrical impulse for happyness?

Or just try meditation, find the way to release dopamine, just sit back and enjoy.