Thread: Indian man 'survives without food or water for decades'

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

This is about the monks who generate heat by meditation:

False. These monks go the rest of their lives either only wearing a loincloth or a think cotton garment, in the Tibetan Himalayas were the temperature get to -70degrees F. They stay away from fires. They also cover themselves in blankets that have been soaking in ice water stream and dry ten blankets and melt the snow in a twenty foot radius around them. They never try to heat their bodies or keep warm with clothes, blankets, fires, warm tea or water or soup. They believe that this will weaken their internal fire. And this isn't some rare unverified claim. This is thousands of monks every generation doing this, to this day. It is part of the 6 yogas of Naropa. It is called Tummo.

Your sure about this? You say it so much confidence, yet personally I would find it hard to accept that as being true unless I had some personal experience of this or had read some well respected, verified sociological research. I'm not being funny, I'm interested in the idea, any chance you could link me to a source?

On the topic, I would have to see it to believe it.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Apparently breatharians live on sunlight. That could their energy source. Plants do it. And chlorophyll and hemoglobin are practically identical molecules.

Firstly, leave this to the Chemists and Biologists who know what the hell they are talking about. You've just compared a protein with an oxygen carrier to a light-absorbing molecule involved in electron transport in plants.

And you've just demonstrated a complete ignorance of plant physiology.

Haemoglobin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1GZX_Haemoglobin.png

Heme B (green above)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heme.svg

Chlorophyll A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chlorophyll_a.svg

In chemical terms, calling haemoglobin, or even just the heme group "practically identical" to chlorophyll, is like calling carbon dioxide "practically identical" to water.

If haemoglobin can act as an electron transporter, then how the hell does it get that in to the cells? The pigment can't even leave the red blood cells without causing toxicity! Compared to the complicated chemical reaction which takes place in photosynthesising cells which features a vast array of reactions that take place within that cell to harvest the energy.

Furthermore, plants have chlorophyll-containing cells on the surface where the light is strongest. They are not found in inner cells because there's almost no light. Yet you're arguing that humans can survive by absorbing light in an oxygen carrier, with no way to transport this energy in to a cell even if it was, and you're arguing that this absorption can happen after most of the light has already been filtered out.

Did you pay any attention in science class? Did you even take a science class?

Unfortunately I don't have time to go through the rest of your post at the moment. Not that it's any fun having to spend my time justifying what can be readily observed if you were not an ignoramus (for example how about the death rates due to infectious diseases which have been massively reduced by antibiotics).

I notice a distinct correlation here. The people making fantastic claims lack knowledge of science.

hmmm.... Doesn't he need proteins and other molecules to replace dead cells? Also, plants are a completely different system, using different molecules. The only way i would buy this is if he was in a sort of unconscious hibernation state. Not saying that it is impossible, but unlikely due to the law of conservation of matter.

Originally Posted by juroara

I know what I experienced. I know that all the symptoms of my ulcer were gone within an hour. That is, the hour before I had all of the symptoms. There is no adequate explanation by the modern medical field. And you are forgetting even the modern medical field acknowledges what they call spontaneous remission, which translates to "we doctors have no idea why you got better so quickly".

You know what you felt, you don't know what you experienced. Intuition can't tell you what is happening inside your body. No matter how convinced you are, you have to be open to the possibility of your mind deluding you. You need to otherwise stop trying to be scientific because this is anything but science. You can have all the faith you want if that makes you happy, just don't play it off as science.

Doctors label things as "we have no idea why you got better so quickly" because they are rational individuals who don't try to guess things, they can only know things. If a doctor, a qualified expert, can't tell you what happened to you, how can you be comfortable filling in the blank?

Originally Posted by juroara

But there is a real science that can explain what happened to me. I am not talking about something I just randomly made up one day. And this new science is able to explain the spontaneous remission and what happened to me in that short little hour. Why not read the book to understand where I am coming from, because I would do no justice paraphrasing it. There is also a video online you can watch somewhere floating on youtube but the book goes into more depth. The book is Biology of Belief.

There's only one book? There's your first red flag juroara.

Originally Posted by juroara

Faith can and does translate to biology. Faith is a tricky thing because it means to believe in something 100%. To even believe in something 99% is doubt. But if you think this means faith is something science can never study, well that's not true. Scientists and doctors have come up with ingenious ways to study just how far faith/belief effect our biology. And if you believe in the scientific method, then the conclusion is simple, faith/belief effects our biology every time!

Here I think we have found the root cause of your misunderstanding. You don't understand science at its most fundamental level. The scientific method was designed to be human proof, made so that humans can't screw things up with their biases and predjudices. It is a universal tool that would work for any intelligent being (even aliens.) You don't believe things in science, you know things. If you are unsure of the workings of your inner body, you have to remain ignorant until you can know for sure.

Originally Posted by juroara

In one experiment children were asked to participate. Now the children grow up in area where a poisonous plant is prevalent. They know that this plant is poisonous. Now two different but identical looking leaves were rubbed on the arms of the children. The children were told which leaf was poisonous and which wasn't. As expected, the arm rubbed with the poisonous leaf became red and itchy. And as expected, the arm rubbed with the non-poisonous leaf was completely fine.

However, the children were lied to! The leaves were reversed without the children knowing it. The arm that became red and itchy. . was rubbed with a non-poisonous leaf. And the arm that remained completely fine, was rubbed with the poisonous leaf.

Now that's just a SIMPLE example of how faith/belief effects your biology. There are more documented and extreme cases. In historical documented case, one scientist disagreed that said bacteria was deadly to the human being. To prove that the bacteria was harmless, he drinks a vile of it in front of his colleagues. No symptoms, not now, not later. The colleagues just completely dismiss what they've witnessed, and continue to label this bacteria deadly to the human being. Even Bruce, author of Biology of Belief acknowledges that he has grown up believing so deeply that this bacteria is dangerous to the human being, that even he doubts he could ever drink that vile.

There is no middle ground with faith. That doesn't make the science harder to study, it makes it easier, because that's only two factors the scientist has to consider. Yes or no.

I would like to see the results of that experiement for myself, because I can almost gurantee there was some shoddy detective work going on here, either that or someone fudged the results to match their preconceived result. How come this experiment hasn't been repeated? It has to work nearly everytime for it to be a legitimate positive experiment. And how do you explain how people get poison ivy without knowing they touched it? I used to get poison ivy all the time as a kid, but I didn't do it on purpose. I unknowingly brushed up against it and then later the rash would appear. I didn't expect for a rash to form, it just did, without the help of my mind. The same goes for people who think they can prevent disease with their minds. You don't know when you are going to get sick.

If I have never heard of this experiment, it means there is something about it that calls its validity into question, because those are obviously some pretty remarkable findings. So why are you so willing to take these stories at face value but in the same breath denounce all legitimate doctors? You are being played by your mind.

Originally Posted by LRT

I survive solely by hoping I don't die. Are you all going to believe me now?

No, that will never work. You have to say "I will live forever," that way it's a positive statement.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Your sure about this? You say it so much confidence, yet personally I would find it hard to accept that as being true unless I had some personal experience of this or had read some well respected, verified sociological research. I'm not being funny, I'm interested in the idea, any chance you could link me to a source?
.

There isn't much information on it online. I found this link:http://www.cognitionandculture.net/i...rian&Itemid=34 This is just a quote from it:

Monks in Tibet-that mountainous country so blessed with oddities-can consciously raise the temperature in their hands and feet 6-7º C (10-12º F), in laboratory conditions (Benson, et al., 1982). There appear to be several methods of g Tum-mo meditation, as described by Alexandra David-Neel (1965), but all seem to involve the visualization of oneself filled with fire. Whether, for adepts, such visualization is necessary for control of body temperature is not clear to me, because Benson reports that one of his research participants began undergoing g-Tummo changes every time he sat down. Monks will even have little contests where they spend a night on a river bank, repeatedly draping themselves with wet sheets, and seeing who can dry the most. I get cold just thinking about it.

It presumably takes some time to develop this ability, but apparently not so much that it is rare in Tibet: David-Neel claims that most Tibetans have the knowledge of how to do it, and that they put it to practical use.

My knowledge of tummo come from whne I lived in Oregon in the mountains 1/4 mile from a Tibetan Buddhist monastery. It gets cold in the mountains in the winter and is always covered with snow for 5 months. These people lived in unheated trailers and wore t-shirts and thin cotton pants all year long. There were about fifteen monks there and about ten of them lived like this. The other five people bundled up and had wood stoves in their trailers.

:-)

Here is a more detailed article.

He's been tested already and exposed as a fraud. He lost weight in the last test.

I didn't see in the article that he was exposed as a fraud. It said that some people call him a fraud, but how was he exposed? Sometimes I gain weight when I eat less and sometimes I lose weight when I eat more, weight fluctuates every month. Interesting. How can we keep up to date on this?

As you said weight fluxuation occurs when the body is processing varying types and amounts of food. He claims he does not eat food. Why would his weight fluctuate in any way if he was getting uninterupted sustainance from a supposedly infinite cosmic source? If this is true his body does not need to compensate the type of fuel being processed by the dugestive system and his weight should not fluxuate. Also, he would not produce urine or feces (the leftovers of processed physical matter) just by breathing air. Weight loss or gain and elimination matterials are proof that his body is processing (or not processing) physical sustenance.

You cannot run a human body for 70 years without fuel in the same way you cannot run a car without refueling for 70 years.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Mandatory immunizations actually harm the immune system, making it ineffective for fighting off other diseases. Also not to mention the rise in Autism because of these immunizations.

Vaccines work by allowing our immune system to create antibodies against a non-dangerous version of a specific disease. It's like training a soldier on a firing range instead of during a battle. Then end result is that you have more antibodies, just as if you had actually had the real disease (and survived). This in no way negatively affects your body's ability to fight off other diseases. Also that whole vaccines cause autism bullcrap is just a conspiracy theory.

Unless you want to see smallpox, polio and a bunch of other defunct diseases come back and kill millions, you should stop dissing mandatory vaccinations.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

In chemical terms, calling haemoglobin, or even just the heme group "practically identical" to chlorophyll, is like calling carbon dioxide "practically identical" to water

Furthermore, plants have chlorophyll-containing cells on the surface where the light is strongest. They are not found in inner cells because there's almost no light.

Unfortunately I don't have time to go through the rest of your post at the moment. Not that it's any fun having to spend my time justifying what can be readily observed if you were not an ignoramus (for example how about the death rates due to infectious diseases which have been massively reduced by antibiotics).

I notice a distinct correlation here. The people making fantastic claims lack knowledge of science.

Dude, where are your manners? You seem to take everything personally and then lash out at people who you think are not as smart as you. Sorry I offended you with my ignorance, Master! Have mercy on me! I never made any fantastic claims. I am just curious and speculated on how this MIGHT be possible. I never claimed that I was an obnoxious arrogant scientist who knows all the answers, like you. I speculated that MAYBE humans can do what plants do, just out of curiousity. And you call people names who are curious about things like this. You call people idiots and ignoramuses. And the funny thing is that you are wasting your time on the internet trying to offend people. You must really be feeling superior.

In chemical terms, calling haemoglobin, or even just the heme group "practically identical" to chlorophyll, is like calling carbon dioxide "practically identical" to water

No, it would be more like calling Hydrogen Peroxide practically identical to water. Which, it is practically identical to water. I am not saying that they are the same, just practically identical. The keyword here is practically.

Furthermore, plants have chlorophyll-containing cells on the surface where the light is strongest. They are not found in inner cells because there's almost no light.

Yes, that is because chlorophyll isn't in the sap, but in the leaves. Our blood reaches every cell in our body, including near the surface. And our skin is translucent. And we are able to synthesize Vitamin D from the sun. Perhaps we can also synthesize other vitamins with the help of our mind. I say perhaps, so don't get on your high horse and go on a crusade against me and others who are willing to think about it.

Unfortunately I don't have time to go through the rest of your post at the moment. Not that it's any fun having to spend my time justifying what can be readily observed if you were not an ignoramus .

I think that it is fun for you. I also think it makes you feel superior to call people names. Why do you feel the need to make yourself superior to other people?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Vaccines work by allowing our immune system to create antibodies against a non-dangerous version of a specific disease. It's like training a soldier on a firing range instead of during a battle. Then end result is that you have more antibodies, just as if you had actually had the real disease (and survived). This in no way negatively affects your body's ability to fight off other diseases. Also that whole vaccines cause autism bullcrap is just a conspiracy theory.

Unless you want to see smallpox, polio and a bunch of other defunct diseases come back and kill millions, you should stop dissing mandatory vaccinations.

I am aware of how vaccines work.
But a healthy immune system can fight off any virus.
Yes, by antibodies.

The thing with vaccines though, is it weakens the immune system.
People who get the flu shot always get the flu!!! It might be a different flu,
but they all get sick right away!

I work with people with autism and am active in the autism community. I know many many families who have to deal with autism and for 85% of them believe that their child became autistic when they got vaccinated. People with autism have chronic low mineral levels which they believe is caused by the mercury in the vaccines. They are very active in trying to get research done and OKd but they are being shut down by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA which are not allowing independent research into this. I live in an area where families who have someone with autism move to because of the agency I work for is so good. Autism is a big deal here, and there is a lot of activism that is getting suppressed here. It is quite a battle.

Calling anything a conspiracy theory is a means to discredit it. As if thinking that anybody has a vested interest is crazy. It is an interesting term.

The only vaccine I have is for tetanus. I do get tetanus boosters about every ten years. I researched that vaccine and it isn't as dangerous as the others.

My parents never got me vaccinated! Thank god! And I have never had chicken pox (knock on wood) even though I have been exposed to it countless times. Now they have a chicken pox vaccine. They didn't when I was a child. I just keep my immune system healthy and use my secret yogic cure.

You seem to take everything personally and then lash out at people who you think are not as smart as you

I have no problem with people not knowing stuff; there are many thing I do not know. I do however have a problem with ignorant people making nonsensical claims which are dangerous if taken seriously.

Furthermore, many many of the things stated on this forum when it comes to science could be easily disproved if the author actually took the time to look things up themselves. In your case, an extremely basic understanding of the circulatory system in the human body - something I would expect of 13-14 year olds - would have told you what you suggested was silly. If you had the curiosity to spend a few minutes of research then you would have learnt something new, and avoided making a nonsensical suggestion.

Even then, that's still not a problem as such, it's the way you confidently stated that haemoglobin and chlorophyll were similar. Confidence that was completely and utterly misplaced.

No, it would be more like calling Hydrogen Peroxide practically identical to water.

It wouldn't because you just compared chalk and cheese. H2O2 and H2O are very superficially similar but even then there is a huge amount of difference. One is one of the best solvents we know of, the other is a powerful oxidising agent.

Yes, that is because chlorophyll isn't in the sap, but in the leaves. Our blood reaches every cell in our body, including near the surface. And our skin is translucent.

Blood doesn't reach every cell in our body, the tissue fluid derived from blood plasma does.The pigment involved in carrying oxygen doesn't go anywhere near our cells. And oxygen carriers behave completely differently to electron transporters. The chemistry involved isn't even superficially similar. It's not even "the same fuckin' sport" to quote from Pulp Fiction.

I think that it is fun for you. I also think it makes you feel superior to call people names. Why do you feel the need to make yourself superior to other people?

It isn't fun for me. Someone has to debunk the stuff written here, and to do a good job involving sources and citations then that involves a lot of time and research. Stating stuff is easy, backing that up is far harder. It's time and effort that could be spend on something more productive or fun.

I post in the way I do on occasion because when people say incredibly stupid, dangerous, and ignorant stuff like "western medicine is not good for treating diseases", is because A) I feel very strongly about the subject as someone with a scientific background B) I feel very strongly about it when I owe my life to the knowledge and technology derived from it and C) because when other people believe this nonsense it costs lives. I feel that when people say such things then it is my responsibility to tell them what they are doing is objectionable.

Despite what those scientifically ignorant claim, I have no need to make myself feel superior. I already know my scientific knowledge and understanding is far superior to the vast majority of people here, a fact that is readily obvious to the other few here who have a similar level of education in the subject. I don't need anyone to tell me I am superior; I am already well aware of my strengths and weaknesses.

I never made any fantastic claims

Really? Let's have a look at some of your posts in this thread alone:

a healthy immune system can fight off any virus.

Many alternative therapies work very well, and many work better than western allopathic medicine

[Western medicine] for diseases it isn't so good

It is better to use a healthy diet, healthy exercise, meditation, and herbs [...] then you will not get cancer

And you ask why I get angry over statements like these. I get angry because of the track record western medicine has in making out lives better. Because it's increased our life expectancy and quality of life. Because it reduces suffering in the world.

And then someone like you, sitting in a comfortable position in the modern world where you don't have epidemics, have to worry about starvation, or contaminated water, you have the audacity to sit there and criticise these things that you have almost no knowledge of. When you criticise legitimate science backed up by countless success stories and the thousands of man-hours of skilled research, experimentation, and investigation, you are effectively committing intellectual vandalism. This then requires someone knowledgeable to either come down and correct it (wasting their time), or risk letting the ignorance spread and do more damage.

Meanwhile, whilst you engage in your self-indulgent intellectual vandalism, there are millions of people suffering from diseases that can be easily treated with modern medicine. Your comments are slap in the face to those less privileged who are dying from malaria, or TB, or the countless other diseases we can treat.

You are almost certainly still alive because of modern medicine. I know for a fact I am. As such, your statements are grossly offensive, destructive, and anti-social. I will not hesitate to let you know of that.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I am aware of how vaccines work.
But a healthy immune system can fight off any virus.
Yes, by antibodies.

In the 50s and 60s, smallpox would kill millions. Since the 70s, not a single death. Vaccines accomplished in a few decades what thousands of years of evolution couldn't.

The thing with vaccines though, is it weakens the immune system.

How?

People who get the flu shot always get the flu!!! It might be a different flu,
but they all get sick right away!

No, just no...

I work with people with autism and am active in the autism community. I know many many families who have to deal with autism and for 85% of them believe that their child became autistic when they got vaccinated.

Are they doctors? Chemists? Or are they looking for a scapegoat.

People with autism have chronic low mineral levels which they believe is caused by the mercury in the vaccines. They are very active in trying to get research done and OKd but they are being shut down by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA which are not allowing independent research into this. I live in an area where families who have someone with autism move to because of the agency I work for is so good. Autism is a big deal here, and there is a lot of activism that is getting suppressed here. It is quite a battle.

Let me know when they prove vaccines are the cause of autism.

Calling anything a conspiracy theory is a means to discredit it. As if thinking that anybody has a vested interest is crazy. It is an interesting term.

Conspiracy theories result in the spread of misinformation which can be potentially dangerous.

The only vaccine I have is for tetanus. I do get tetanus boosters about every ten years. I researched that vaccine and it isn't as dangerous as the others.

My parents never got me vaccinated! Thank god! And I have never had chicken pox (knock on wood) even though I have been exposed to it countless times. Now they have a chicken pox vaccine. They didn't when I was a child. I just keep my immune system healthy and use my secret yogic cure.

See the reason you're unlikely to get polio or measles or the mumps is because nearly everybody is immunized in the West so there's nobody to catch it from. Now people are slacking off on getting their children immunized for misguided reasons and we're seeing a resurgence of these illnesses which were previously not an issue. Good for you if you have a good immune system and the measles won't kill you, but that might not be the case for the person you pass it along to.

And that's why EVERYBODY should be immunized, not so you can't catch a disease, but so you can't spread it. Aggressive immunization can kill off dangerous diseases entirely, as we have seen with smallpox.

Actually, I have traveled all over third world countries without any money and have had to worry about contaminated water and epidemics. In those cases, the people were bathing and dumping their waste in their drinking water. It isn't antibiotics they need so much as education on how to care for their water and keep clean. Also their diets suck! It is only relatively recently that I even have a roof over my head and food in the cupboards. Many alternative therapies have been around for thousands and thousands of years and work VERY well. I will give examples: herbalism! Ayurveda! Herbalism works so well that scientists use herbs to make medicines and try to recreate some of the herbal chemicals synthetically, which may be stronger than the herb, but has more negative side-effects. I don't see how you can argue with my claim that a healthy diet/lifestyle, meditation, and herbs will keep you healthy. If you are unhealthy, then something is wrong. I have cured myself of skin conditions (which was caused by an allergy to dairy), irregular heartbeat (which was caused by a magnesium deficiency and stress), and gall bladder stones. Not all things western are bad. Nutrition is a good science. I think that people can cure themselves of 98% of conditions if they research what is wrong with them.

You disagree that a healthy immune system can fight off viruses? That is what the immune system is for! And we need to keep it healthy. There are amazing herbs that keep the immune system healthy. That is what herbs are for.

I am OK with you disagreeing with me, and even educating me, but please, be respectful. Don't call people names, and don't get angry. Keep it a debate, not an argument. Imagine if you asked a scientist a question and he started calling you and idiot and an ignoramus because you didn't know what he knows. You would say to yourself "Jeez! What a dick!" And keep in mind, that you can still learn a thing or two about a thing or two.

Now, let's get back on topic. Perhaps someone can start a thread about alternative healing techniques and we can take the debate there.

I was gonna jump in, but Photolysis said pretty much everything I was planning to. +1 to the voice of reason

Holy crap, can you guys just share your opinions without bitching at eachother? my god...

@Photolysis:

Half of your argument makes you look like an intelligent, mature individual... Then you show immense immaturity by calling others names like a 12 year old.
Wouldn't the intelligent thing to do be allowing your knowledge of your points being made, and allowing those points speak for you and allow others knowledge of the material and response to the op or your response speak for them. I really see no need in calling other's names in the way you do, at least not in the amount you're doing it...

regarding the op, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm
he survived 10 days without water or food.... He wasn't proved to be false. The statement was

"At the end of his confinement, doctors noted no deterioration in his condition, other than a slight drop in his weight."

not a loss of weight to indicate the failing of the tests

i bet hes a wicked lucid dreamer

So he lost wait without pissing or shitting?

Originally Posted by MementoMori

@Photolysis:

Half of your argument makes you look like an intelligent, mature individual... Then you show immense immaturity by calling others names like a 12 year old.
Wouldn't the intelligent thing to do be allowing your knowledge of your points being made, and allowing those points speak for you and allow others knowledge of the material and response to the op or your response speak for them. I really see no need in calling other's names in the way you do, at least not in the amount you're doing it...

There is a reason why I post the way I do. I probably do take it too far or use such labels too quickly, and there are certainly others who will share that view. That's a character flaw of mine and something I should work on.

There are however times where I am so offended by what is being said that I will not hesitate to give my opinion on the matter, and quite frankly I won't apologise for that. Sometimes it really is necessary to do so.

So apparently this guy passed the test!
I suppose there will be more tests,
I am interested to follow his story.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

regarding the op, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm
he survived 10 days without water or food.... He wasn't proved to be false. The statement was

not a loss of weight to indicate the failing of the tests

Well, this is intresting then. Who knows about the 70 years he went without this, though.

I just read the article date..it's back in 2003? LoL! behind times.