How free are we?

[Indecent Exposure]

Mechanisms of control have evolved in the West over the last 100 years. We may have the illusion of freedom but in reality we are still almost as controlled as ever, the mass media has replaced most of forms of control. Thought control is in my eyes a very real problem, a massive problem. What do you think?

[Universal Mind]

Imran, this is the media. Stop believing that. STOP believing that.

[Kuhnada29]

Thought control is in my eyes a very real problem, a massive problem. What do you think? Then control your own thoughts...I mean, how hard is this. Reclaim your own mind or someone else will. Media controls your thoughts. Stop watching media. Specifically the news. All it does is show the destruction and the chaos. And if you DIDN'T know, media lies all the time.....even the newspaper...yes this is true.

[Speesh]

Then control your own thoughts...I mean, how hard is this. Reclaim your own mind or someone else will. Media controls your thoughts. Stop watching media. Specifically the news. All it does is show the destruction and the chaos. And if you DIDN'T know, media lies all the time.....even the newspaper...yes this is true. I absolutely agree. Be thankful for the fact that you have the ability to see beyond the veil of bullshit. How society at large is doesn't matter, what matters is your own personal freedom of mind that nobody can take away from you. I'm starting to see that there are two main types of people in the world, catalysts and reactors. Catalysts are the self-reliant, the individuals that live creatively according to their own rules and inspire others. I'm sure everybody knows people like that. The minority who make things happen. Reactors are people who do just that, react to stimulus instead of command it. Constantly seeking outside for more labels and dogmatic beliefs to apply to themselves, waiting for happiness and answers to come from others. Most people are reactors, which is why humanity tends to have such a sheep-like nature. The greatest service you can do the world is become a catalyst if you aren't already. Instead of preaching, just live your life in your own unique way; that will inspire others. The example is a far greater influence than the word. As I'm sure you have heard many times, "be the change you want to see in the world". For those like myself who are not natural catalysts, it takes work. But I believe anybody can be an inspiration if they wish.

[Xei]

Key point: what have you ever wanted to do that you have been unable to?

[dajo]

Key point: what have you ever wanted to do that you have been unable to? Key point 2: would you be free, if you didn't know you actually weren't? What if all the decisions we think we do freely are actually implented in our mind by either a powerful PR or by our own bias through education, family and peers? We'd gladly sign our death certificates and think it was a free choice. On a different note: If I remember correctly, isn't neurologically speaking free will not really existent anyway?

[Xei]

On the apparently macroscopic scale of neural activity I'm a soft determinist, so I think free will as a valid concept as such. With regards to whether decisions are really free or not: I think so. I try to base decisions based on reason, not what people tell me to think.

[Taosaur]

It's a stretch to call the media's impact "mind control." What control we are under is not organized and top-down, but convoluted and lateral. We control each other. Certainly there is disproportionate influence from those whose main aim is to amass wealth and who are good at doing it, as well as greater influence from more widely distributed impulses, such as "Me want shiny pretty" and "Me want fuck." The media is at least as much a reflection as an influence upon us.

[Kuhnada29]

I absolutely agree. Be thankful for the fact that you have the ability to see beyond the veil of bullshit. How society at large is doesn't matter, what matters is your own personal freedom of mind that nobody can take away from you. I'm starting to see that there are two main types of people in the world, catalysts and reactors. Catalysts are the self-reliant, the individuals that live creatively according to their own rules and inspire others. I'm sure everybody knows people like that. The minority who make things happen. Reactors are people who do just that, react to stimulus instead of command it. Constantly seeking outside for more labels and dogmatic beliefs to apply to themselves, waiting for happiness and answers to come from others. Most people are reactors, which is why humanity tends to have such a sheep-like nature. The greatest service you can do the world is become a catalyst if you aren't already. Instead of preaching, just live your life in your own unique way; that will inspire others. The example is a far greater influence than the word. As I'm sure you have heard many times, "be the change you want to see in the world". For those like myself who are not natural catalysts, it takes work. But I believe anybody can be an inspiration if they wish. To quote Terrence Mckenna, the only people who create their realities are psychos ( compulsive liars, schizophrenics ) and shamans. That's why I love weed so much....it puts you in your own world.

[Sony86]

Mechanisms of control have evolved in the West over the last 100 years. We may have the illusion of freedom but in reality we are still almost as controlled as ever, the mass media has replaced most of forms of control. Thought control is in my eyes a very real problem, a massive problem. What do you think? I think it's pretty corrupt. Apparently (according to my manager) he was telling me about books that told about secret organizations way back in the day before America even existed. He said they created this system of money for two things: So they could maintain slavery in an acceptable fashion, and so that they could get women to do anything they wanted. Pretty fucked up, but knowing the dark side of the human agenda, does not surprise me in the slightest. America, yet being a seemily nice place to be raised (which it is, assuming you have some sort of good income), but is the most corrupt non-third world nation on the planet.

[SpecialInterests]

We must be kept in line to maintain the status quo. Politicians are the media through which we are given the illusion of control. Get them to participate in something where they think they are making change. That's the trick. Americans are meant to "feel" free by exercising meaningless decisions. That's why we have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of different products to choose from, from tens of thousand different stores and shopping malls. Too many choices... not good. edit - I remembered a good clip from Ted on "the paradox of choice", I recommend it - http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ba...of_choice.html

[Xei]

I've always thought Americans have had a kind of obsession with freedom to the point where it's become more of a mantra than anything meaningful. I don't think most people in the USA realise that the American dream isn't exclusively an American phenomenon; in the sense that there are many places in the world where there is probably a lot more social mobility, and freedom to achieve what you want by the strength of your will and imagination. Like I said above, the 'freedom' that Americans will often defend their country for is more of a concept than anything else. What is it exactly that you want the freedom to do, and do these things tend to be allowed in America but not in the rest of Western civilisation? Probably not.

[Black_Eagle]

Conservative Christian republicans talking about freedom makes me want to strangle puppies for that very reason, Xei.

[Sony86]

I've always thought Americans have had a kind of obsession with freedom to the point where it's become more of a mantra than anything meaningful. I don't think most people in the USA realise that the American dream isn't exclusively an American phenomenon; in the sense that there are many places in the world where there is probably a lot more social mobility, and freedom to achieve what you want by the strength of your will and imagination. Like I said above, the 'freedom' that Americans will often defend their country for is more of a concept than anything else. What is it exactly that you want the freedom to do, and do these things tend to be allowed in America but not in the rest of Western civilisation? Probably not. Definitely true. I like how you stated that. Americans are a bit obsessed with America (...a bit?), and will never know the difference until they leave the states for themselves. Did you know Bush never got his passport until he was president? Conservative Christian republicans talking about freedom makes me want to strangle puppies for that very reason, Xei. Definitely agreed, probably one of the most annoying things in the world.

[Oneironaut Zero]

I've always thought Americans have had a kind of obsession with freedom to the point where it's become more of a mantra than anything meaningful. I don't think most people in the USA realise that the American dream isn't exclusively an American phenomenon; in the sense that there are many places in the world where there is probably a lot more social mobility, and freedom to achieve what you want by the strength of your will and imagination. Like I said above, the 'freedom' that Americans will often defend their country for is more of a concept than anything else. What is it exactly that you want the freedom to do, and do these things tend to be allowed in America but not in the rest of Western civilisation? Probably not. I only wish more people living INSIDE our (Americans') country would realize this. As the media goes, I do think that calling their influence "mind control" is pretty valid - not because it rivals the "mind control" that science-fiction books and movies have made us associate with the term, but because, to a certain degree, that is its intention. What's scary is the scale on which this works. It affects all of us - even those of us who are aware of such concepts, and eager not to become affected by it. We often still succumb to social norms (which are often spear-headed by the media). We are often still susceptible to clever advertising. That corny song on the radio might just seem that much more catchy, because everybody else likes it. Etc. etc. Consciously, we are as free as we allow ourselves to be, but this usually has to be weighed against the consequences. You're free to make whatever choice you want, but making a self-indulgent choice can often be as taxing as any prison cell. Though that deals strictly with matters of choice. Like someone said, the most affective forms of control are the ones that go undetected. If you ask me, it's also the most common form of control, especially in civilizations such as the West. What is it that the Merovingian said, in the Matrix: Reloaded? "Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without." You see the concept in all kinds of authoritative systems, from parents and children, to teachers and students, to bosses and employees. It doesn't matter what walk of life you come from, it's no secret that you usually catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. You can't expect those people you are controlling to just go with the flow, unless they are given some level of choice. Some "freedom." Something by which they can convince themselves that they are truly in charge of their own destiny. Marketing Politics (which is really just another form of marketing) Banking Entertainment All of these industries exploit those truths, on a daily basis. It is actually the foundation of such systems. And it works, plain and simple. People confuse the term "freedom" with "being able to do whatever you want." This is hardly ever (if not "never") the case. Just because this is a free country, doesn't mean you can walk into a man's house and take a dump in his refrigerator, without the possibility of some sort of consequence. There are rules and guidelines, to almost anything - even if they are unspoken.

[SpecialInterests]

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish... Then he needs to get a fishing license, but he has no money so he needs to get a job and now he needs to get into the social security system and pay his taxes. So now he's got a fish and he can't even cook the motherfucker because he needs a permit for an open flame." - Doug Stanhope

[Oneironaut Zero]

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish... Then he needs to get a fishing license, but he has no money so he needs to get a job and now he needs to get into the social security system and pay his taxes. So now he's got a fish and he can't even cook the motherfucker because he needs a permit for an open flame." - Doug Stanhope Hilarious. Lol'd at that one.

[undeadjellybean]

Mechanisms of control have evolved in the West over the last 100 years. We may have the illusion of freedom but in reality we are still almost as controlled as ever, the mass media has replaced most of forms of control. Thought control is in my eyes a very real problem, a massive problem. What do you think? I agree & it angers me! Individuality is almost lost, creativity is just lost!! Well, of course not on everyone, but at least the people I see everyday, I see many that are so imaginative, actually creative & really intelligent but have no idea how to exploit this traits!

[Kuhnada29]

YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU, YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU ...lol whatever happened to grasshoppa

[LucidFlanders]

YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU, YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU ...lol whatever happened to grasshoppa He has been banned for a few months i think? i guess he is perma banned.

[Kuhnada29]

what did he do to get that harsh punishment

[spockman]

what did he do to get that harsh punishment Challenged the mind control of the media, and the totalitarian PBS whacked him.

[Rainman]

Like I said above, the 'freedom' that Americans will often defend their country for is more of a concept than anything else. EXACTLY!!!! I think that's the whole damn point of this thread! Think about it... how much shit has been passed and overlooked by dumb shit stupid, mind-warped Americans in the best interests of protecting our precious "freedom?!" The Government and the elite are systematically removing our actual freedom in the name of of "preserving" it! "We must now wiretap your phones, have access to everything you do and say and sign, have a history of everywhere you've been, legally mandate the fitting of all US Passports with RFID tracking chips so we know where you are at all times, but it's to protect your FREEDOM!" And as soon as any of the idiots get a feeling anything "fishy" is going on, what does the media decide to do? "Uh... hey! Look over there... queers are trying to get married! <distract><DISTRACT>" It really is mind control, in a form. It really is mass brainwashing. I agree with Tausaur, (I think it was him) who said that media is at least a reflection of ourselves. But I disagree, man... I think it's a reflection of how we THINK we WANT to be. Or at least that's how it originally began, and now we're so screwed into it, that all of this mind melting garbage is entertainment for us; this is what we are.

[SpecialInterests]

I think the reason Kurt Cobain commit suicide is he just got tired of trying to satisfy Americas gaping faces so desperate to be entertained. Just the amount of entertainment we have in the western culture should set off little bells and whistles inside everyone's head. It's one big circus complete with shopping malls, movie theaters, casinos, theme parks, video games, redundant products, mindless television shows, and advertising. It's all really depressing.

[Caprisun]

I don't like how some of you here think you can speak for all Americans, like you're the enlightened ones and everyone else is just stupid. I'm American and I don't agree with a lot of what has been said here. It looks to me like a bunch of people talking out of their asses rather than a real discussion. And as soon as any of the idiots get a feeling anything "fishy" is going on, what does the media decide to do? "Uh... hey! Look over there... queers are trying to get married! <distract><DISTRACT>" I didn't know the media worked for the government. I think the reason Kurt Cobain commit suicide is he just got tired of trying to satisfy Americas gaping faces so desperate to be entertained. Curt Kobain killed himself because he was a depressed drug addict with with bipolar disorder and hated the world and had a shitty childhood.