Thread: F**k the Troops

Originally Posted by Akono

So you're saying someone who's in a situation where they don't have any other means of employment (look at the unemployment rate), or financial ability to get into college doesn't get your respect? Everyone doesn't have all of those luxuries to do whatever they want to do when they graduate. And once they're in, they're not crying to get out of the situation they're in.

Don't twist my words. I stated people that voluntarily join the military don't get my respect, even if they're only joining due to financial/unemployment abilities. They will end up doing the government's bidding in one way or another.

Of course, that doesn't mean I have some intense hatred for military personnel. One of my best friends got accepted to Valley Forge, a military school. Do I hate him? No. He's a cool guy. Do I respect his decisions? No.

Originally Posted by Akono

Someone who chooses to give up there liberties as a person in order to better whatever situation they're living in will always have my respect, regardless of what the government makes them do. There are other people who give up there liberties because they resort to other things and end up in jail.

So you're in favor of abandoning principles and freedom to simply "get ahead?" I don't intend to twist your words or misinterpret them, but that's what the quoted piece looks like to me. Maybe you could clarify?

Originally Posted by CanceledCzech

Blueline, would just like to inform you to the fact that you are a massive piece of shit.

Profile says 17. Big surprise there. Why don't you go back to complaining about how sucky everything is while you text your friends inbetween CoD matches and rubbing your dick. You are such an ignorant mother fucker, thinking you're so god damn enlightened becuase you aren't "some tool who signs their life away to the military" such an ignorant piece of shit. It's people like you who give Americans a bad name.

Cool story bro. If you would like to try again with less ad hominems, by all means, please do so. I don't argue with people that call personal attacks "arguments."

what in the crap, isn't there a big difference between WWII and arming ourselves to the point where we have enough explosives to blow up the planet several times over?? give de-militarization/armament a chance please.

Originally Posted by cygnus

what in the crap, isn't there a big difference between WWII and arming ourselves to the point where we have enough explosives to blow up the planet several times over?? give de-militarization/armament a chance please.

You are talking about our nukes. We gathered them during the Cold War, which from our side was about scaring the Hell out of the Soviet Union and, as it turns out, bankrupting it so it would cease to exist. The strategy worked. I don't think we have to be able to blow up the world many times over, but we do need to be able to handle some insane shit. Plenty of insane stuff has happened in history to prove that.

oh yeah, i definitely acknowledge that, UM - but i have to agree with blueline regarding the 'overkill' bit...

do you think there could ever be an end to starvation and poverty if we continue the present (post cold war) rate of military and weapons development?

Originally Posted by Alric

Personally I find anyone who joins the army in order to protect the US to be very naive. Sure I respect people who think they are defending our country. I have a lot of respect for people who stand up to that ideal. I just don't think they are the brightest bulb in the box.

Personally, I find anyone who makes generaliztions about something they don't understand not to be the brightest bulb in the box. Just so you know, I personally know dozens and dozens of military personnel, mostly Marines, and they are the brightest and most respectable people I have ever met. At Officer Candidate School I was basically mentored by a group of Marine Drill Instructors, believe me when I say you would NEVER say to these mens faces that they were naive. For one you would be scared shitless, and two you would be awestruck by their level of competence in everything they do.

Originally Posted by Bearsy

This isn't about the War. This is about the Troops and all the people who get pissed when people "disrespect" the troops.

It is awe strikingly dim of people to lack the capacity to understand why there would be such a lack of respect towards people who storm into other countries with gun, grenades, bombs etc and murder innocent civilians, sometimes by the thousands including woman and children so that the governments corporate leaders can earn an extra profit or screw over the country another way to make themselves richer and/or more powerful. In my opinion, there's no reason to pay respect to someone for doing this, above the common mutual respect which I would give any human being. Maybe when things start affecting people like you rather than just common citizens in other countries then you will understand and perhaps grow to lose your respect for them as well.



And UM... There have been around 850,000 (based on the most conservative estimates) deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan combined since coalition forces stormed the countries. You're trying to tell me all or most of these deaths are justified?

What about the Afghan cleric who was killed by NATO forces a few days ago?

He wasn't targeted for being an insurgent, he was driving his two sons somewhere and pulled off th road to let the troops pass and was killed as a result.

And that's just the most recent report. I can guarantee the same has happened countless times.


700,000 or so Iraqi civilians have been brutally murdered. There is NO WAY that even 1/5th of those people deserved it.

Yes, things are getting slightly better for the people there, but not fast enough and not cleanly. They will be in upheaval for many years after this.
And the occupation is not happening in ways that are worth the deaths of much more than 1,000,000 people by the time this is over.

"It is awe strikingly dim of people to lack the capacity to understand why there would be such a lack of respect towards people who storm into other countries with gun, grenades, bombs etc and murder innocent civilians, sometimes by the thousands including woman and children so that the governments corporate leaders can earn an extra profit or screw over the country another way to make themselves richer and/or more powerful."

This is a very ignorant view, and you really have no basis for saying it. There are many grey areas in this argument but to take it to this extreme is not only wrong but downright shameful. As a Marine in training, I can personally tell you that we do not target civilians, I thought that was obvious. The only people who are intentionally killed are people who pick up arms against us. Now I will submit that there are grey areas considering the fact that these insurgents don't have an honorable bone in their body. They are not above using their families as shields. They know we are less likely to attack them if they operate out of a mosk or out of a house that is known to be home to women and children. They exploit our moral code. You would be naive not to expect accidents. That doesn't make it ok, but you are barking up the wrong tree. Just know that it is absolutely ridiculous to think that American soldiers are storming into homes and murdering civilians.

"And UM... There have been around 850,000 (based on the most conservative estimates) deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan combined since coalition forces stormed the countries. You're trying to tell me all or most of these deaths are justified?"

First of all, that number is very high, I have seen estimates as low as 94,000 killed since 2003 and the majority of estimates are consisent with that lower number. And second of all, did you know that those estimates do not discrimate between deaths at the hands of Americans and deaths at the hands of insurgents? I would guess that Iraqis kill more of their own people than we do, considering the fact that they blow them up by the dozens every week.

Blackwater. We're screwing the pooch.

lol he says we kill innocent civilians LOL

First of all, the whole reason the troops even went to Iraq was because of suspicion that they had nuclear weapons. Look at it like this. Say im a police officer. I suspect that you may have 50 kilos of cocaine in your vehicle. I ask to search you vehicle to make sure you dont have any illegal drugs or weapons. You tell me no. If there was no problem then you would not have a problem with me searching your vehicle.

This is the same scenario in iraq. We suspected that Iraq had nuclear bombs that they were hiding, and seeing as they would not let anyone in the country to inspect for said nuclear bombs, probable cause to take an even more direct action. With a country like Iraq, a very underdeveloped country where most people have the mind and instincs of a pure savage, why on earth would you allow them to have nuclear bombs? Its like letting a kid play with your loaded shotgun. I dont know if you realize that nuclear bombs can reach you anywhere on this planet, so please, dont say that being in the US, that we are not threatened, especially since decades ago we have been the bullseye for every major anti democracy rebellion group. Sure we havent found any nukes yet, probably never will, but i know i feel alot safer knowing that trained proffessionals are in Iraq to ensure that they never get used on us. If the US left Iraq today, by the end of the month the whole country would be in turmoil. It would be a giant cival war.

You already have insurgents there from all bordering countries, KILLING THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS, and blaming it on the US, because they themselves dont want the rest of the world to know that it was actually them using civilians as human shields, blowing up there own hospitals, blowing up there own schools etc. Should we just sit back, and allow these savages to continue making life hard for the good people of there country? I thnk not, as that is not what the US is all about.

Sure there are plenty of problems here in the US that need to be adressed, but none of them outweight the problems that are happening in these third world countries such as, but not limited to, genocide. People bash the US, and even our OWN people cuss and spit on our troops for making the world a better place for EVERYONE. Where is the logic? We removed a tyrant from power, basically liberated the people of Iraq. Now you got all different tribes having a cival war in the streets, sending suicide bombers to blow each other away, and the US is policing that issue. Can you not see that we are trying to clean that country up? There is always casualties in battle, but do you not see that everything we blow up, eventually gets re built? If they didnt want there houses blown up, they shouldnt have been hanging out the window shooting AK's at the guys trying to help them.

You want to sit behind your keyboard and your soft drinks writing about how bad the US is, but you only write about what you read on the internet. Have you ever seen a day of combat in your life? Do you know what it feels like to accomplish a goal that is worth no money, a goal that gives only self satisfaction to know that YOU have made a difference in these peoples lives? It sickens me to my stomach when i read this stuff, especially when it comes from our own citizens. GET REAL. There is more to life than your own back yard.

Afganistan. We are there primarily to search and apprehend the HEAD of the snake, Osama Bin Laden. Without him the main rebel force could not function as well. I have no doubts that with him gone that they would not still find a way to operate and carry out attacks on the peaceful citizens of there own countries, but there morale and basic functions would be cut in HALF. That would make the US and all other countries helping out's job, that much easier. If you dont like the idea of helping someone in need, for no personal, physical gain, then you should leave this country. Go join with the savages and see how fast they turn you into the next beheading video on the news.

You want to make a difference in this world, join the military, be a soldier, be a real true american hero. You really think that we go over there and say hey i see a civilian, lets shoot him. That is just fucking retarded im sorry to say. The only murdering going on in the middle east is the murders commited by there own people. Why is it so hard to believe that we are actually there to help? The US also isnt the only country over there. This leads me to my next point that the US is a target and always will be, because we are the most successful country in the world. You dont ever hear people bashing the fine UK troops for doing THERE job do you? Exactly.

That kind of physically hurt me...

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Don't twist my words. I stated people that voluntarily join the military don't get my respect, even if they're only joining due to financial/unemployment abilities. They will end up doing the government's bidding in one way or another.

Of course, that doesn't mean I have some intense hatred for military personnel. One of my best friends got accepted to Valley Forge, a military school. Do I hate him? No. He's a cool guy. Do I respect his decisions? No.

you will respect his decisions if they ever reinstated the draft....but we never had that happen because people are out there fighting already.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

So you're in favor of abandoning principles and freedom to simply "get ahead?" I don't intend to twist your words or misinterpret them, but that's what the quoted piece looks like to me. Maybe you could clarify?

Thats the thing about it....no one joins to "get ahead" they join to stay afloat". and no one is abandoning principles, they're giving up there rights as a civilian. Theres a huge difference which i suggest you look up. I hope i clarified it for you.

*shakes head* gladly many others have already showed how naive the op is, but Im just going to throw in something a little more simple...the ones to be mad at are in fact the government, not the troops. That is why there is all the support the troop stuff. Being a soldier is a job.

Also, having a military helps protect our country, regardless of what the government is doing with it, so if you say that they arnt protecting freedom, that is dead wrong as well.

Originally Posted by Akono

you will respect his decisions if they ever reinstated the draft....but we never had that happen because people are out there fighting already.

There would be no point in respecting his/her decisions if they reinstated the draft because they would be forced to go against their own free will; they would have no decision. Of course, my attention would then shift from the soldier to the government should the draft be reinstated.

Thats the thing about it....no one joins to "get ahead" they join to stay afloat". and no one is abandoning principles, they're giving up there rights as a civilian. Theres a huge difference which i suggest you look up. I hope i clarified it for you.

I say "get ahead" in life from their current position, you say "stay afloat." Doesn't really matter.

"Giving up rights as a civilian" (whatever that means) to go get paid to fight [usually] non-threatening people across the world so the gov. can pay for their college education (or other issue - by taxing the general populace) sounds like giving up principles to me.

Originally Posted by Onus

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I think you were just anxious to use that reference but I am really not debating that at all.

It looked like you were making that assumption. If not, I apologize.

And no, I wasn't anxious. Took me a while to type all of that into a post lol.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes you can. It is a fact that the weapons industry went crazy during World War II in every country involved. That created zillions of jobs when there had been hardly any. Do you agree with that much?

Sure, unemployment went down. However...

Well, those people started getting money from the government, money the government was going to have any way, and those people started spending money. That allowed allowed other businesses to grow and hire more people, who spent more money and allowed more business to grow and new businesses to be created. The perpetuation effect of all of that grew the economies of the world, and the perpetuation effect continued even after the war ended.

You lose track here. How is taxing people to get money, then giving those same people money to buy things a plan for economic growth? It'll only get taxed away anyway. Taxes also rose during the war, usually by broad government taxes on personal income, corporations, and profits taxes on corporations. Sure, that meant more money for the gov to spend on the war, but less for the consumer to stimulate with.

Total consumption didn't grow much during WW2. It rose modestly from $70.8 billion (1940) to 119.7 billion (1945). Consumer spending also fell a lot considering the shortage of consumer products (cars, appliances, etc). The focus was on making military products, using private capital of course. Since private capital wasn't being used for consumer demand, there was little economic growth during that time.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

"Giving up rights as a civilian" (whatever that means) to go get paid to fight [usually] non-threatening people across the world so the gov. can pay for their college education (or other issue - by taxing the general populace) sounds like giving up principles to me.

What? Who are these non-threatening people we are fighting?

Originally Posted by Caprisun

What? Who are these non-threatening people we are fighting?

Civilians, so-called "insurgents" that are only violent against us because we're invading their homes, putting embargo's and sanctions on their countries, etc.

Originally Posted by stonedape

So people who use violence to enforce their ideals aren't thugs if they where a uniform? What is it that makes it ok for people in the military to use violence but not ok for others(talking about war, not the example with the wall)?

Civilians

This is a load of shit. Killing people is killing people regardless of weather or not you get paid for it. In fact, if someone is paying you to do it, it's even worse because then your doing it because someone else told you to, so it's not impulse but a calculated move. To some extant there are people who have been brainwashed(/are naive as has been said) and to some degree it's not their fault. But that's even more of a reason to verbally abuse them. These people need to realize what it is they are doing, and it seems that some can and some can't.

What is it that we need protection from? Why do we need to fight for freedom?(I don't think we do)

What justification do we have for supporting our uniformed killers? They only one I see is that they are "protecting us", which is bull. They are in another country fucking with people's shit. The only thing this war protects is imperialism. Apparently it is alive and well.

"So people who use violence to enforce their ideals aren't thugs if they where a uniform? What is it that makes it ok for people in the military to use violence but not ok for others(talking about war, not the example with the wall)?"

I never said anything remotely close to this. If a Marine beats his wife, he goes to jail just as any other person would. Obviously killing enemy combatants on a battlefield is a little different than murdering in cold blood back home. Military personnel aren't allowed to walk around America punching people in the face because of their uniform, what makes you think they are exempt from the law?

"This is a load of shit. Killing people is killing people regardless of weather or not you get paid for it. In fact, if someone is paying you to do it, it's even worse because then your doing it because someone else told you to, so it's not impulse but a calculated move. To some extant there are people who have been brainwashed(/are naive as has been said) and to some degree it's not their fault. But that's even more of a reason to verbally abuse them. These people need to realize what it is they are doing, and it seems that some can and some can't."

Get off your high horse. It boggles my mind that people can be this self-righteous. How exactly is killing on impulse better than killing by calculation? American soldiers are not mercenaries, mercenaries are mercenaries (private contractors.) So why do you people keep talking about the money? If there is one thing in life that I am absolutely sure of, it is this: NOBODY joins the Marines/Army/Navy/Coast Guard for the money. Some people may join for benefits, they may join to stay out of jail, they may join to pay for college, they may join to prevent homelessness, but they do not join because the money is good. And infantry men join infantry because they believe in what they do, they understand the necessity of their existence. The people who only want to exploit the militaries benefits usually look for the easiest job in the military, you won't find people like that in the infantry. Bring your nose out of the sky and realize that the majority of people know exactly what they are getting into when they join the military. It is insulting beyong belief that you assume they are too brainwashed/naive to realize what they are doing.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Civilians, so-called "insurgents" that are only violent against us because we're invading their homes, putting embargo's and sanctions on their countries, etc.

They are no longer civlians when they pick up an AK-47 and aim it at an American soldier. Is that your idea of non-threatening?

Originally Posted by cygnus

uh, this made me laugh.

if he was an intellectual he probably would use this intellect to address the root of the conflict rather than 'violence to prevent future violence.'

It was a joke, he never threw anybody through a concrete wall, obviously. He's a Marine Corps drill instructor, not a psychologist.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

They are no longer civlians when they pick up an AK-47 and aim it at an American soldier. Is that your idea of non-threatening?

Is it only because they aim it at American soldiers? How about Canadian? Mexican? Australian? Zimbabwean? Italian? Indian? Pakistani? Russian? Japanese? Chinese? Thai? Vietnamese? Cuban? (This was largely rhetorical. I sensed nationalism in you)

The only reason they are "threatening" now is because they're defending themselves from American soldiers dicking around in their homelands. To the country as a whole, they are not threatening.