Thread: Peace on Earth

Done to death, but...



Yay peace thread, understanding comes first.
But shouldn't we be doing something other than just talking about it...?

What?
We need peace?
Nobody has ever thought of that!!!

War is inevitable, no doubt about it. There's no getting rid of it. As long as there are humans who think differently from others, there will be humans who attempt to get rid of those who think otherwise.

Case in point: Hebrews v. Muslims. Their fighting goes back to an ancient "family feud" that probably won't be resolved until one annihilates the other (or at least that's the way the Old Testament reads. Bias anyone?)

Goddamn Hippies.

I lol'd

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Goddamn Hippies.

:bravo:

I think that if we could blow up a few major cities all over the world, killing millions in the process, we could make it look like some other entity did it and watch as the nations join together in peace for a common cause.

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

War is inevitable, no doubt about it. There's no getting rid of it. As long as there are humans who think differently from others, there will be humans who attempt to get rid of those who think otherwise.

As long as people still cling to this idea, it will be true. All that is reinforcing its validity is the belief in it.

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

Case in point: Hebrews v. Muslims. Their fighting goes back to an ancient "family feud" that probably won't be resolved until one annihilates the other (or at least that's the way the Old Testament reads. Bias anyone?)

Nope. The religion of Islam didn't exist in old testament times (or even in new testament times), and Jews and Muslims have only really hated each other for about 70 years, since the creation of the nation of Israel after ww2.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

As long as people still cling to this idea, it will be true. All that is reinforcing its validity is the belief in it.

thats not the point though. The point is conflict is just as innate in us as sex, if biology isnt a lump of crock anyway. So, I dont see getting people to stop having sex working any time soon.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

thats not the point though. The point is conflict is just as innate in us as sex, if biology isnt a lump of crock anyway. So, I dont see getting people to stop having sex working any time soon.

A lot of people stop having sex all of the time, just as a lot of people are not violent.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

As long as people still cling to this idea, it will be true. All that is reinforcing its validity is the belief in it.

Plenty of acts that result in outright harm to the general public or to individuals on large scales are justified on the premise that "it's only natural and makes no difference if I do it too" (or along those general lines).
What you pointed out is a simple concept that ought to be more widely recognized.

What wars have ever been fought between two democracies? I think there might have been like one before electricity was discovered or something.

The solution: Democratize the world. Liberate every nation and put all dictators and other totalitarian regimes in a big garage disposal. It will be the end of wars between nations. Of course, it will take war to get there, but it will be very much worth it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What wars have ever been fought between two democracies? I think there might have been like one before electricity was discovered or something.

The solution: Democratize the world.

That seems like pretty dubious causation. Care to elaborate a little?

The whole peaceful democracy thing is historically dubious. At any rate it won't last in the 21st century. Naturally people want peace, but the scarcity of resources is going to end all hope of that pretty soon.

Originally Posted by DuB

That seems like pretty dubious causation. Care to elaborate a little?

There has been a totalitarian dickface leading at least one side in every war (between/among nations) there has ever been. Democracies only fight wars to take on totalitarian dickfaces. They don't ever have a need to do it to each other. There is no point in it, and there never has been (except for that maybe one example somebody here brought up recently, talking about something before electricity). Or is there something you know that I don't know on this?

The list of wars between/among nations in world history is very, very long. Name one case of when two democracies ever went to war against each other. IF you do come up with examples, what percentage of the wars do they make up?

Are you afraid that the United States might go to war with Canada? Are you afraid that France might go to war with Australia? Is there any kind of likelihood that modern Japan might go after England? Of course not. Democracies don't go to war with democracies.

Yes, the concept of Russia going to war with the United States this century is totally bizarre!

Oh wait.

Unfortuantely I suck at history, but there's a page about this exact thing here:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Or is there something you know that I don't know on this?

History has always been one of my least favorite subjects . I just wanted to point out a potential case of correlation-does-not-imply-causation. It seems like your response expanded pretty well on the correlational aspects, but I was hoping that you would elaborate on some causal mechanisms. Why does democracy lead to less war?

Originally Posted by DuB

History has always been one of my least favorite subjects . I just wanted to point out a potential case of correlation-does-not-imply-causation. It seems like your response expanded pretty well on the correlational aspects, but I was hoping that you would elaborate on some causal mechanisms. Why does democracy lead to less war?

Because democracies are not owned by a ruler or rulers. They just have short term leaders, chosen by the people, who who can be voted out of office. Democracy is not about government ownership, so it does not fuel the kinds of things Nazis, communists, and emporers have interests in. Plus, democracies are far more civilized than oppressed nations, so the citizens are better people and would not stand for such a thing.

There is at least one asshole in every fight, and democracies are too civilized and non-totalitarian to be such assholes.

Xei, Russia is not a real democracy. They only appear to be one on the surface. They are totalitarian as Hell. If you don't think so, go over there and speak against the government. Watch what happens, if you have time to catch a glimpse before they kill you. Good find on the list, though. I didn't realize this debate was that common. I definitely don't consider the wars on that list I know anything about to have involved real democracies, though. They even put King George III England on the list. WTF???? That is the totalitarian regime the U.S. was set up against. I am not familiar with a lot of those wars, but the presence of George III England on it really screws up its credibility. The Confederacy was not a democracy either. If half of your population is held in slavery, you don't have a democracy. I don't even consider the U.S. to have been a real democracy before the end of slavery. If there actually have been a few wars between real democracies, they have not been happening in modern times. Industrial civilization cleaned up a lot of the ignorance at the root of man's primitive habits.

Now you're just arbitrarily assinging democratic status to those countries which fit your rule. Many would argue that the US is just as undemocratic. It's totally arbitrary.

And anyway, why should we be looking to history? The history has been a period of constant economic progress and therefore relative political staility, as oil availability has increased constantly. That is over now. We are in a completely different climate. The oil is just going to go down and down and the events of the past will be no guidance for the resultant crisis.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What wars have ever been fought between two democracies? I think there might have been like one before electricity was discovered or something.

The solution: Democratize the world. Liberate every nation and put all dictators and other totalitarian regimes in a big garage disposal. It will be the end of wars between nations. Of course, it will take war to get there, but it will be very much worth it.

UM, seriously. I don't understand why this is the only garbage you seem to swallow. Do you really buy in to the 'war is peace' crap? Sometimes I get the feeling that you've cast yourself knowingly as the political devil's advocate.

What wars have been fought between two communist states? None? Okay; lets force communism on the rest of the world.

Honestly, why do you only speak in propaganda when talking about this stuff?
Are you aware that the chinese occupation of Tibet also claims to be a 'liberation' from religious oppression?

You know, I was going to respond to your second post in a more thorough way pointing out where exactly you were wrong, but I found a web document that outlines this entire argument for both of us. Notice it starts out by stating the motivation for creating the document:

I've witnessed this debate on Usenet several times, and it always follows the same pattern:

Somebody casually brings up the old factoid about how no two democracies have ever gone to war with one another.
Somebody jumps in and lists a dozen or so wars which have been fought between democracies.
Somebody else points out that those countries weren't democratic, not really.
Everybody gets into arguments over who was or was not democratic.
The argument fizzles out except for two guys continuing to argue over whether the American Civil War was about slavery.

Maybeeee if more women were in power, and the men who want to fight locked away in dungeons somewhere, there would be no more wars. I'm just sayin.'

I teach at a middle school. Why do I always see boys fighting... and (almost) never girls? Why do boys think it's somehow okay to fight? Ohhhh the joys.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Maybeeee if more women were in power, and the men who want to fight locked away in dungeons somewhere, there would be no more wars. I'm just sayin.'

I teach at a middle school. Why do I always see boys fighting... and (almost) never girls? Why do boys think it's somehow okay to fight? Ohhhh the joys.

When women are falling behind in the world, you're falling over yourself to move the goalposts for them. When men fall behind in the world and start to degenerate into neanderthals, as is occuring at an exponentially increasing pace - due in no small part to your feminist cronies taking every opportunity to hammer us - when that happens, instead of trying to help us, all you want to do is criticise us.

I hope the impressionable young male minds entrusted to your guidance do not take your egregious sexism to heart and have their already fragile self-worth further wounded by your vile female chauvinism.

On that last point, since you won't listen to me - here are some sage words from a fellow feminist, author Doris Lessing. Lessing states that “a “lazy and insidious culture had taken hold within feminism that reveled in flailing men” and that “it has become a kind of religion that you can’t criticise because then you become a traitor to the great cause, which I am not.” She recalls visiting a primary school where the female teacher made a comment in front of the class to the effect that all wars and most of society’s ills are the result of the Neanderthal desires and aspirations of men. Lessing recalls that the “little girls sat fat with complacency and conceit while the little boys sat there crumpled, apologising for their existence, thinking this was going to be the pattern of their lives”.

Now there’s one feminist with my respect, because she embraces the cause as purely a means of balancing rights between the sexes, not promoting one to supremacy at the expense of the other.

Originally Posted by paragon

When women are falling behind in the world, you're falling over yourself to move the goalposts for them. When men fall behind in the world and start to degenerate into neanderthals, as is occuring at an exponentially increasing pace - due in no small part to your feminist cronies taking every opportunity to hammer us - when that happens, instead of trying to help us, all you want to do is criticise us.

I hope the impressionable young male minds entrusted to your guidance do not take your egregious sexism to heart and have their already fragile self-worth further wounded by your vile female chauvinism.

I don't think the failings of the sport world's attempts to be gender nuetral can be compared to the political arena.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Maybeeee if more women were in power, and the men who want to fight locked away in dungeons somewhere, there would be no more wars. I'm just sayin.'

I teach at a middle school. Why do I always see boys fighting... and (almost) never girls? Why do boys think it's somehow okay to fight? Ohhhh the joys.

Like one comedian said. "If a woman were president there would be no war." *everyone claps* "Just severe negotians every 28 days"