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I like to be positive about most people. I don't like to shut them out or think of them as different like that.
I have alot of faith that everyone sees enchantment in the world.
I don't people are in a "deep sleep". I think everyone is connected to the world in this positive way, and even if they don't understand or even recognise it I'd like to think it's an intrinsic part of consciousness.
The question I keep asking and never seem to get an answer for is; How do you know that your entheogenic experience is transcendental? How can you tell that you are not just on drugs?
I cant figure out how to respond to this: agreement, disagreement? No idea. Though I do know I am very pleased that someone holds this belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
As do i, although the truth is that most are "disenchanted" with this world, where nothing matters but working, having sex, and getting/spending money.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanceledCzech
I would really like to be positive about people, but it seems like the people just a little younger than me are extremely superficial. It's like they worship superficiality. It seems to me like most peoples minds are horribly out of shape. People spend lots of time text messaging and less time actually conversing(some people will even text someone while in the middle of a conversation with someone else). They also seem to be spending more time watching television and less time reading. To them the quality of information is irrelevant. As long as there is near constant transfer of the familiar, the popular. To them the connection is all about feeling connected, feeling the oneness of all things. They care very little about the end result, as long as they feel like a part of it. To them length is a negative quality because they can experience more connections if they are all short. They have their minds in so many places at once that they are really nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
When the consciousness flows out of people in these sorts of patterns, it's hard for them to break out of the shell of the ego and actually enter into reality. Most people's interactions are not actually interactions with other people but interactions with a mental projection(a verbal hologram) of a person. When interactions are like this it is impossible for them to be meaningful. When people's relationships are based on meaningless interactions they are very unstable. Thus people look to gangs for stability.
They look to the Government or the Church or wherever they feel like they fit in. They look to groups that have a place in society. They find a place in that group and then they have a place in society. Then the sense of existential angst goes away and they can be happy citizens. I'm not trying to say that people ought to feel alienated, but the truth is that we live in a society based on alienation. We live in a society of red vs blue, black vs white. Your this, I'm that, and that's where we fit into society. People derive their sense of self from a verbal hologram that they've created, a collection of labels. In doing this they ignore what they actually are and miss life as it happens.
I'm not trying to say that these are preferences these people have or anything. It's more of a cultural phenomenon. I think it's the result of a last effort by the people in charge(white alpha males who take advantage of the human desire for oneness with reality) to stay in power. They will fall.
The problems of this world really do come down to misunderstanding that oneness, thinking that there is something you have to do in order to get it. INHERENT PERFECTION:D
Sorry for rambling, but I've had these ideas in my head for a while.
Is there a self? My understanding of the transcendental experience is that it is a shutting down of certain parts of our consciousness. I think that it's very similar to the death process in that way. When these processes stop we are able to see the world naked in all it's beauty. When I've had these experiences I always feel that there is no beginning or end to that which I am. I've heard this called selflessness before and that word makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
I think a lot of us will identify with this video!! I mean, why are we all a part of this forum anyways? We all joined for the same reason. Lucid dreaming. Why did we become so fascinated with lucid dreaming? What did it offer us that we were missing in our waking ordinary conscious lives?
And I think what's even more important is here on DreamViews we have every personality type! And yet we all want to experience lucidity.
This video made me really aware that my desire to lucid dream is my desire to have a 'mystical' experience. To experience something that is uniquely different than just regular waking consciousness.
If you really identify with the message of this video, you might become angry, frustrated, anxious. Because you want to taste this natural birth right so much, but even if you do entheogens, you still gotta go out into the 'real' world that completely and utterly denies that your experience is real. Or even denies your natural human need and birth right to experience the 'mystical/enchanted reality'
So what do we do? This is the hard part......The really really really hard part. What do we do even if we do experience the mystical, the psychedelic, the enchanted and interconnected reality? Now what? Do we just hop in our car, use more fossil fuels, and work at some shitty job we hate, pretend to be someone were not? Day in? Day out? Taking our weekly or daily fix of lucid dreams, psychedelics, or OBE's to make it all right?
If we do that, then were not different than alcoholics avoiding their emotional problems. Even if we are communing with the gods.
The hardest part is to take our 'mystical' experiences, and allow it to change us forever. The hardest part is to integrate. And it IS overwhelming when you do realize you're not anywhere near who you want to be *blissful!!* and you're not living life anywhere near how you want to live life *deeply connected*!!
Well the good part is you're not alone :D. And we have the internet to be like our alcoholic anonymous support group. Where we recognize that yes it's our birth right to have these experiences, but if we only seek out these experiences and never integrate, were missing the point!
The other good news is, fractal time is on our side!! The video shows images of the natural and wild human. Our most ancient and primordial religion is animism. With animism the world of spirit was deeply a part of the world of matter and flesh. This meant that experiencing the physical world, or the physicality of our beings, was to experience something divine......Making the human experience an ecstatic one. And it also meant at the same time, we are so much more than just a body.
We then started our journey into the world of spirit, where only spirit mattered. As monopolized by monotheism, this meant that the world of matter wasn't sacred anymore. Being human became a shameful thing, we were sinners and the only thing that mattered was winning our true life in heaven.
Deism was short and quick, merely a mid-stop as we swung into the other reality. The material reality where we flip the coin and deny spirit. But this didn't offer us freedom either. It too made our human condition virtually meaningless. Now that we have experimented with both extremes, we should be able to merge back into the center knowing just how sweet it really is :)
(ps...they just put 2012 because it was convenient!)
Well this to me is evidence that fits into the "just on drugs" column. Entheogenic drugs to not shut down parts of the brain, they actually over stimulate parts of the brain, and so your explanation to me seems like an after-the-fact rationalization of experiences that your human mind/brain was grossly unaccustomed to interpreting.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Can't believe I missed this thread last time around...I always get so much out of these discussions.
Nice, love that video. Very concise and exactly what I needed to hear. I've always been able to connect to RAW's words far better than McKenna's. Though they both have undeniably great ideas. I always enjoy listening to both of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
Interesting, that's happened to me about 5 or so times that I can remember. I suddenly wake up and I'm in an intense state where I'm aware of everything subconscious. The first few times I resisted and freaked out, but the last two times it happened I managed to let go and it was a really cool experience. I wonder what causes it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hard_Wired
Yeah, I know that game. Most of my friends would probably think less of me if they knew I was into this stuff. It can get frustrating. But its not that they think its 'gay', 'stupid', etc, they just don't understand it. As a general rule they'll see it with a bias and probably dislike it. We're not free from this either. My friends are into things I might call 'shallow', 'mind-numbing', etc but I'm just doing the same thing they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by katielovestrees
Its the nature of the human ego to have a limited, biased view of the world. And thus the inability to see outside its worldly programming. The way I see it, the trick is to learn to accept the environment passively as it is. No opinions, judgments, condemnations. Just acceptance of love of everything as yourself. With that comes the ability to see everything as it is, instead of as it can be or should be. It may sound rather stale and robotic (at least it did to me), but I've felt this state before and its quite the opposite. I live for it now :). Though unfortunately its much much easier said than done.
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Originally Posted by stonedape
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Originally Posted by MementoMori
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Originally Posted by CanceledCzech
Again, I'm probably not thinking of the exact same sensation or experience of the OP. But I am talking about a profound connection with everything in the world, and not being detached. I know how easy it is to condemn, I know cause I've done that most of the time.
When I go out into the town on a cold friday night here, and all I see is hardly dressed girls screaming and shouting, vomiting and drinking and creepy and overmasculine guys trying to fuck anything that's drunk. When I see these same people repeating this every weekend and living a banal and dead existence everyday in some shit filled office or stacking shelves and they only seem to have a hatred for the world. They only seem to be waiting for the next superficial release. Lives literally based on acquisition of 'things' and people being counted as another thing with this.
The problem, I think, is that what I'm talking about, this understanding, is far far deeper and more profound than anything we assume it to be. It's more profound than what you "do" in your life, more than how you act, what you want, what you even think. Like I said, it may in no way be expressed through the way someone lives their life, and they may look to us absolutely lifeless, mundane. That's how they do look to us. We think we have seen, or we have, something that they don't. I think it's true that maybe we recognise or think about this muchmore, we consider it's implications.
Why I basically have faith in people, is through my own experience of the world, directly. It seems to me that simply my experiencing, of everything in the world, this absolute sense of 'being in the world', this dasein. I remember times when I have been selfish, greedy, superficial, everything negative we recognise in people here. BUt always always I have been profoundly connected with the world in a way which has never been absent. When it would appear to the world that I'm doing nothing but a superficial pursuit, and I myself would only be thinking of greed and what I want, there has been present a sense of connection, that I did not RECOGNISE, or UNDERSTAND. This to me is one of the most profound states imaginable. I cannot concieve of consciousness without it. It seems to me to be a part of what it is to be conscious.
Most people won't find significance or recognise this sense. I have talked to enough people to find absolute wonder in all of them though. It is part of being human, to be enchanted with the world. Some show it in ways so subtle we don't see them, but I guarantee it's there. This is very hard to explain, but you know what it's like simply to experience the world? To be within the world totally, you don't need to be reflecting on this, theorising, simply to be. This is what it means to be a being. To be conscious. This is beautiful and wonderful, and though you may be superficial, disconnected on one level, at a deeper level, everyone is in this. It's somewhat beyond distinctions.
I have faith, that people, human beings, are complex. I know they are. They are so much more complex than we can imagine, and for us to cast such judgement that maybe all we see of them is all there is to see, it belittles the complexity. In a red faced fat man guzzling beer and shouting at passers by, I can find more beauty and complexity than the stars.
Think of a human life, any. Think of all the love and hate and the dreams and the billion emotions and the appreciation and the desires and the disgust and the interactions and the moments of a little smile to someone and all just perfect experience, pure experience of the world. all these things. Everyone has all of this. This is not mundane, no matter how you cast it, and to experience the world, in any way, is amazing, to me. On the very surface someone can be superficial, greedy, evil, but the mere fact of their being, their experiencing, it's a wonderful end in itself. And for me, it's evidence in every human being of a connection to the profound or as you might want to call it "the divine".
I'm not good at explaining this particular point, and this has been heavily ham fisted.
They stop certain processes. A large part of our consciousness is involved getting what we want. This creates a sort of filter that we experience reality through. This is why somethings look good and other things look bad. When you are high(whether it's from breathing or from cannabis) you can bypass these filters. You feel so damn good that you have no reason to go through all these processes that are designed(by you) to make you feel better. You stop worrying about survival and live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
I think I see what you mean with this question now, but I think it's something that has to be considered on an individual basis. There's not some kind of transcendence ACT. Transcendence to me signifies those experiences I've had while playing music or tripping when there was no me, All I knew was pure experience(these are the only real spiritual experiences I've had). But there may be another level of transcendence, which might be called Enlightenment. With this kind of transcendence a person would live like this(permanent shift). You might look at this as Awakening vs Enlightenment. Personally, I don't think there is any such level, I can't understand how there could be, but that may be because I'm using my dualistic mind to look at it. If there is any such a level I doubt it's reachable through the use of drugs alone, but I've never smoked DMT.
You have experience though, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
I think the things you realize that have a longer-lasting positive effect on you
or still stick with you after the drug wore off entirely are the 'real' ones, all
that is just the drug speaking will cease to apply once the drug wore off.
But that of course postulates a certain degree of self-honesty. But as far
as actual proof goes,.. that's a little difficult. But I think it becomes quite
clear in what way they function or present any 'truth' when you do them.
To me they rather seem to relativize the term and show alternatives or
different possibilities (and the way how this happens, how thoughts work
and conclusions are presented I find highly interesting).
These sometimes seem to be impossible to come up with on your own, often
because they are just kind of 'there' and there was no conscious thought
process that lead to them. I think that many think these thoughts must come
from 'an outside source'. But of course there is no proof here either.
I have a lot of experience, and that is most of the problem. I have enough experience that I should be fitting right into this conversation about how the rest of the world just hasn't woken up yet and touching god in a methyl molecule but in situations like these, all I feel is that I'm the only one that looks at the disparity between perception and reality and doesn't immediately forsake reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
I want to believe Mckenna when he describes his framework for reality that has been revealed to him by the sentient (or at least communicative) psilocybin molecule but all I can think of is that his tone and inflection is awful similar to Charles Manson's when he's describing how the Beetles wrote all their albums to communicate with him about how he's the second coming of Christ and should be inciting black people to revolt by killing random celebrities. Why are McKenna's mushroom fueled revelations any more significant than Manson's acid fueled revelations?
I really see where you're coming from. I wouldn't connect any of my experiences
with psychedelics to undoubtable proof of the reality being an illusion or to be 'forsook'.
There are way too many factors, including ones own bias, to be so certain of that.
I just don't assign too much of an importance as to what I believe or don't believe
(at a perticular moment). I find it much more rewarding to approach things with a
really open mind and it takes the pressure of 'always having to know' off of ones
shoulders. Also I don't think that psychedelics are just giving out enlightenment, they
are merely a key or a tool. According to Carlos Castenada it even is very intensly
hard work to achieve any knowledge. So of course you can always delude yourself
into an enlightened state. But you'll know eventually.
Few points to McKenna.
There are quite a few talks (and books) on his experiences, but as you know,
this stuff is very subjevtive/personal. Meaning what is working for him does
not necceccarily work for anyone else. There is a lot more stuff, where he
doesn't even link psychedelics to everything he says. I find him more often
than not to be a philosopher, sociological critic and tutor on shamanism and
culture. Basically what I think is that his ideas and thoughts are (quite obviosuly)
not to be taken as one hundred percent literal. The difference between Manson
and McKenna would probably lie in the context. Or do you feel you are being
manipulated? :) @last remark: They're not different. The people were.
Yeah, that's essentially exactly what I had in mind when I said that. Or more specifically - talking to my mom about anything of this nature and after I bring up some perfectly logical points, and she fails to counter them properly, she just dismisses it with "will you just give it a rest!? All this arguing wears me out!" (you know, despite the fact that it wasn't an argument) or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by katielovestrees
The same thing happened in me while reading this post that happened when i read your last post. You took what I understand, and tied to together, and I think you just broke the "the Tao that cannot be named is not the true Tao" rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
To quote Terence Mckenna, "That's it! That's it! Now I understand!"
I think you're right, and I feel like this helps to reconcile this apparent superficiality with what Carou is saying. That even though people may be superficial and greedy, they still strive for that oneness in one way or another. It's just that they've been distracted somehow (be it a cultural phenomenon or what else) from the 'inherent perfection' -- that the mere act of being is deeply rooted in this transcendence.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Or to put it simply, "we are all gods suffering from amnesia" (I am probably paraphrasing something Alan Watts)
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Originally Posted by CanceledCzech
Good man.
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Originally Posted by Xaqaria
It's simply a lens in which to view this reflection called reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
The view on this reflection, however distorted, isn't the issue at hand. It's all about showing you a different spectrum and angle in which to view the reflection which provides you with deeper insights into yourself and relation to all that is.
Polishing one's mirror can be done in many ways, not just through use of mind-altering plants and other narcotics. These methods are only tools-- Jogging, exercise, art, meditation, breathing exercises, etc. Each method can help one attain a shift in awareness. The method used isn't important or even necessarily "real", anyway. It's the realizations and information brought back from looking at yourself at that angle that are.
Mirrors polished on the same level will inevitably reflect the same clarity of image and insight into this reflection we call "reality".
The "reflection" can only ever be reflected by a mirror...
"It" never touches IT.
In other words, don't confuse a reflection for the mirror itself.
Polishing our mirror through proper identification is all we can do, and these methods provide the varying angles in which to view.
Misidentification of yourself with the reflection only clouds your mirror and reflection process.
Manson and Mckenna both have their own insights drawn from polishing their mirrors in certain ways. Mason is noticeably more clouded in his reflection through misidentification with the reflection than Mckenna was. Their resonant echoes of their messages to connect with nature were the same because when in this altered state you realize you literally are no different from nature or anything else perceived as "other".
All the atoms and matter that make up your body and all physical forms on earth are made from the same substances of exploding stars from millions of years ago.
In closing, any way you use to shift your awareness will slowly allow you to realize this underlying connection to yourself as the self-aware universe...
Which is undeniably real.
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speesh
As for your second paragraph, I have to say that's what I'm aiming to do as much as possible in my life. I find that when I spread that love around, it often comes back to me :)
Fucking mind shattering! :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
This guy seems to have awoken his divine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeeSQ...esh+div-f-3-HM
Holy hell, I can't wait to smoke this.. :bowdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidFlanders
I've seen both videos before. I'd love to see more and more documentairies on this subject.
Here's my own 2 cents:
http://www.dmt-nexus.com/Files.aspx?Filetype=Books
I just think it's one important thing to note that Psychedelic drugs require ritual. Also. as Albert Hoffman once said that LSD should never be used by the common man. Aldous Huxley shared this belief -- that Psychedelics should be reserved for the elite. I disagree, but I definitely share the thinking that way of thinking to an extent. The more of a mind you have, the more fun it is when it's fucked up.
A friend of mine has done shrooms countless times, and acid a few times. All he saw was cool visuals. Had a fun experience. Called it a day.
I once smoked weed and had such an intense experience that it caused me to quit for 8 months. This was after I had been smoking regularly for three months.
My friend is completely uneducated like the rest of the masses, and that I am at least at the level of 'pseudo-intellectual'. Plus, I'm constantly thinking.
The distinction i am trying to draw here is this (and to reiterate): My uneducated friend gets fucked up on some LSD and nothing happens, while I, and slightly above-average, mildly educated person gets thunder-fucked by the fractal nature of reality on a little bit of weed.
And, getting back to ritual (sorry, this post is all over the damn place), I don't mean you need to light candles and need to pray to a god and chant or something. I simply mean that there has to be a protocol to this. You can't just drop some fucking acid and then expect everything to be clear. You need a community or system to help reconcile what it is that you have just seen.
Terence Mckenna has said this far better than I will ever be able to
Oh yeah, and when I say 'education', I mean beyond standard schooling, as in intellectual pursuits outside of standard schooling.
I totally understand what you're trying to say and I completely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanceledCzech
As an off-topic but relevant-to-this-post side note, I think today's "drug culture" condones the dumbing-down of drugs. How you take them is pretty much entirely dependent on your state of mind when you take them, so your reason for using them plays a huge role in determining what kind of effect they'll have on you.
If you're using them to get fucked up or just to feel good, then that's likely what's going to happen. If you're using them for mind-expansion and attaining higher realms of knowledge, your experience is going to be entirely different from that of the person who just wanted a buzz.
I'm losing track of my thoughts, so tl:dr - I agree with Czech.
I don't want to take up a lot of space quoting again, but Carousoul, that post #34 of yours...beautiful. I wish I could consciously experience that deep appreciation of the world (and eventually, I will, I'm just not there yet). I believe you do touch on a fundamental truth...the wonder of our existence, regardless of what we have done with it, is miracle enough to inspire awe.
Bravo.
Dajo & CanceledCzech,
I couldn't agree with you more.
Psychedelics are tools for "X"-intention. Entheogenesis has whatever meaning YOU give it.
It's purely subjective.
For me it is a healing agent/ego solvent (in which it is therapuitical), Creative enhancement tool, intellectual/philosophical stimulant and general Consciousness exploratory tool.
Yet for many people I know Entheogenesis is no more than a blast. A lowly intelligent form of amusement. ( Not the biased people who've never taken an entheogen though: they just haven't got an idea what they're talking about)
This just goes to show how the content and meaning of Entheogenic experiences is completely decided by who is taking the Entheogen.
Bob Marley once said this about Marijuana(which is an Entheogen): "The Herb will reveal you to yourself"
This is true for all Entheogens really.