Printable View
Is america a free country? It seems to me that it is obviously not. Yet people in america seem to constantly talk about this being the land of the free. Maybe this once was the land of the free, but that was before we took it from the indians.
Why do people think that their vote matters. Their hasn't been a worthwhile presidential candidate since JFK. These candidates are selected by the people with the money, to do what they want.
So why do people in america think that they are free?
very simply they are given the Illusion of choice. You see with Hitler and Nazis they first got elected and then took over the coorporations. Now the Nazis, illuminati, Zionists.... or whoever they are took over the corporations, funded sides of wars and then took over the goverment very covertly.
No. Not in terms of voting.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
You are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
Oh God, not this again...:roll:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=61480
Freedom costs a buck o five.
AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
If America's not free, what is?
Not Cuba.
Not China.
Not North Korea.
Not Tibet.
yes, America is a free country ...
we're free because we can choose what to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
as in, freedom to religion, speech, etc. etc.
No. America is not a free country. Despite what the chicken ses it's home of the cowards and the slaves.
The US is more free than most nations of Africa, the Middle East and Asia, but less free than several nations of Europe and the Americas. It's a toss up with Australia.
Yeah, This prison is more free than that prison. But, Get out of prison. All part of the same earth and all part of the same prison. So instead of comparing nations. Compare real freedom with the earth as it is globally. Oh, now it's clear. Not free.
Oh noes, we's locked in a matrix of control structures and mandatory trade--we must be humans!
If you want to be free, be free, whether you're in a condo, a cage or a cave.
Ok lizzy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
I've heard no resons so far as to why we are free. Other than this whole freedom of choice garbage. Just because something is more free than something else doesn't mean its free.
All media is owned by a few people. They are what give people the news. So, these people control the information by which 98% of people base their deciscions off of. For example something as important as the presidential election. To me, it was obvious that it was going to be barack vs mccain from the begining. These 2 got far more media coverage. I don't wanna vote for either of these scumbags. And neither should you. Neither of these people should be running a country. It's just like the last election. Kerry and bush were both terrible choices, yet almost everyone who voted voted for one of those two. You will not find change in the democrat or republican parties. For some reason people think it matters weather or not a republican or democrat in office. The only difference are the tactics used to take away your rights.
The press is controlled. This is a violation of the first amendment. By controlling the press, you control information. This is something that the founding fathers knew and wanted to prevent. The press is used to create hysteria amongst the people. Thepeople feel as if they are not safe. Then the people don't get mad when their right are taken away. If this is not true, then how did the patriot act and homegrown terrorism act get passsed? Both these acts take away your constitutional rights.
Because true freedom can only be achieved through Choas.
In otherwords we sacrifice partial freedom for something resembling order. Though the only true way for complete order is for no freedom.
Freedom comes at a cost...and the truth is there will never be a "completely" free anything because there are insane people out there that you need to be protected from. This is why we agree to give up pieces of our freedom for protection.
To answer your thread question simply: No.
Here is why:
Patriot act I & II
The Government can 'sneak and peak' anyone's house while they are not home to search the house without a warrant or any permission or anything.
The Government granted immunity to phone companies, so they can wiretap ANY PHONE without permission and with immunity from the gov.
Anyone been hearing clicks on their phones?
You can be detained for an indefinate amount of time for being accused of terrorism, and terrorism can be defined as anything according to the patriot act ANYTHING CAN BE CONSIDERED AN ACT OF TERROR. Even a protester.
Also, you can be tortured and held in gitmo for good, without a lawyer or a phone call, thats freedom!
Elections give you two identical choices every 4 years, and both choices are terrible and they keep getting worse and worse.
The executive branch seeks more power every term, eroding our 'freedom'
If that doesn't explain to you we aren't free, nothing will...If you do not see what I see, feel what I feel and know what I know then you are forever a sheep and a slave to this country.
We are slaves, We wakeup day after day and begin enslavement by being forced to work 9-5 or more everyday being trapped by this system of money.
Money enslaves us by forcing us to live paycheck to paycheck, forever paying endless bills and fee's and taxes to our big brother who is fucking us in the ass right now with taxes.
1984, here we come.
Well, it could be worse. We could all be scientologists.
That would truly be scary, scientology ruling?
This really proves my point. We don't live in a free country so why do we call it that? But I'm not even asking for true freedom. I just want to be able to live my life as I choose to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
Yes I will agree that we have to sacrifice some of our freedoms in order that our society works, but we have given up too much. We have established a society structure. This is a good thing and I would agree that this is preferable to chaos, or "life in the wild". But we do not need government and police in order that we have order. People are not completely retarted, they don't need to be told how to live and how to act. They only need to be taught to think critically.
Why are people afraid of these insane people. If you do no wrong to others, then others will have no reason to do wrong to you. I need no protection. If someone feels the need to take from what I have, then so be it. When someone does you wrong they do more harm to themselves than they do to you. As long as you keep a positive mind, everything will be all right. Why do people put so much faith in fear. They are so sure that everyone wants to get them.
We do not need laws to establish order. What we need is to teach peole to think. The government does not want this, because if people were able to think they would realize that all war is futile. Government thrives off of war, famine, disease; off of all forms of instability. We will never have a truly stable society as long as government exists. Governments need an enemy to fight, otherwise they serve no purpose. We create these enemies when we choose to put our faith in fear rather than love.
It must be nice to live in your reality...but for the rest of us we're going to hope that you just put those words out there and they are out of context from what you really meant to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Crazy people out there exist and want to kill for the sake of killing. People are retarded...I don't know what world you live in but go to the mall one day and just look around. It is full of retarded people.
Sandform is kind of right, most people don't know their head from their ass in terms of whats going on around the planet, whats REALLY going on, not what cnn or msnbc tells you.
Once again this is my point. People are very confused now, and it is because of the government. Not neccisarlily the elected officials, though they do suck pretty hard, but the people who actually have power, the people who have the money. The people who have the money in this country don't want the public to be intelligent people capable of critical thinking. They want patriotic fools who will support anything that the government says, and thats what they've got. Thats what you see in the malls.
No one kills for the sake of killing. They have a reason, even if they have become so blinded by their own hatred that they cannot see it. Babies do not come out of their mothers womb wanting to kill. They have to be raised to do so, or experience things that make them angry in life. There has to have been something that caused this hatred.
THe kind of changes that need to be made in our society cannot be solved by government. THey can only be solved through a strengthening of the family and community structures. In this county there is a move toward more federal power, less local. This is exactly the opposite of what should be happening. WE have so many laws already, yet more problems than ever.
You can't get rid of violence with violence, and thats what the government claims it can do. We fight the terrorists. How about we stop fighting, and learn to live together? All wars are started by governments. Is war really a good price to pay to for the little freedom you get sitting in your house because your too afraid to go out and live?
Your logic on this is wrong. If someone has I don't know gone nuts and has you in the back of their trunk...and they are taking you to the desert to shoot you, because they are a serial killer, do you honestly think saying "lets talk about this" would help? Because that is essentially what you're asking people to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
You're committing the same crime socialists commit. On paper it looks good...and would work out, if everyone did what they are supposed to, but we don't live in a world on paper. If only everything would go as planed...but it wont.
What kind of freedom are you looking for? Based on your election analysis and characterization of The Media(dun dun dun), you want the freedom for everyone to agree with you. I for one think Obama is a kick-ass candidate, better than I expected to see in my lifetime, and I have access to more diverse streams of information than seemed possible even ten years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Should we work for more freedom? Hell yes, but you can't force freedom on people. A majority of Americans prefer to be policed and herded, rather than think for themselves and take care of business. Look at your own post, talking about who's taking your freedom and the choices they're giving you.
You want to know where your freedom's gone? You're sitting on it.
I'm sorry but anyone who calls Obama a kick-ass candidate or mccain needs to get their ass kicked.
I'm looking for the kind of freedom that will allow our species to thrive and not act like a bunch of idiots. The school system in this country is the number one problem in our society. It is a problem that we could fix, yet we do very little to change it. The school system in america has been declining for a long time, yet we continue to use basically the same system. We make minor changes, but it's still basically the same. There is a constant overflow of facts, to the point that people just memorize things. They never go very in depth or give an overall understanding of a concept just more and more bullshit. History is altered to give people a further sense of american pride. I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a good education, but most people don't. They shove this unvalidated patrioticism down your throat from the age of 6. Americans are so arrogant now. Why should you be proud of something you had nothing to do with. Why are you so special, just for being born here?
I'm not that worried about my own freedom. Real freedom comes from within. I worried because my own family members act like idiots. They listen to terrible music, eat terrible food, Spend hours a day watching tv. It pisses me off that people will accept living like this. And they wonder why life seems so boring and theres nothing to do. I constantly hear this complaint from my younger brothers. There is so much more to life then what the average person experiences. People are so busy doing nothing that they don't have time to think. They don't have time to look around truly see how beautiful life is. I might have gotten carried a way a bit, but I'm just trying to do something to solve the problem, rather than let people run this country into the ground. Is our economy not bad? When you see a freind whos about to do something stupid you don't just ignore it, you have to talk to them about it. You try to change their mind. I'm sorry but bush got elected twice. If thats not a sign that somethings wrong with the electoral system, then I don't know what is.
And I'm not saying we some small group should overthrow the government and free the people. That shits retarted. I'm saying we should educate people so they will quit acting like a herd of cows. I don't know very many intelligent people who act like this.
This thread is about the fact that people in america think that they are free, though they are not. They have a false sense of pride based on the fact that they think they are free, when in fact they are not.
Our freedoms are being taken away because the public gets convinced that thers a terrorist threat. What threat? The only people who should be afraid at all are people in major cities. And even then, I mean how many terrorist attacks have taken in place in this country. I'm not sure but my guess is its less than 5. So why are we letting the government tap phones and commit ridiculous searches to find terrorism. You can get the answer right from your local news. They constantly show people a negative aspect of life. Violence and war and terror and theft and drugs and disease. Why all this focus on the negative side of life? People are scared for no reason. Life is so much more beautiful than that. These things make up only avery small part of life, yet we are so focused on them now. You cannot defeat terrorism with war, yet our government is fighting a war on terror. You don't have to force freedom on people here in america. They want freedom they just do not know how to achieve it. Mostly because they think that they are already free which as we discussed they are not. If people wanted to be controlled, then why would they claim to be free. They are just confused, and need to be taught to think for themselves. I don't think there are many people who have this ability that regret it. I've never met someone who thought "damn, I wish I didn't know how to think for myself, then I could just walk around being fat and stupid, and not let it really bother me." People want to be free. They want to express themselves. They are just too afraid because the government and the media have created a culture of fear.
I surrender to the stoopid. Let's all get stoned and wear dresses.
What's wrong with wearing dresses and smoking pot?? Skirts are better anyway..
Not really we all give up our rights under the social contract. So basically in all goverments we lose our rights.
That's because they are not fully informed because of their television sets and apathy. Programed to be lazy, with a short attention span. Given want they want junk for thought but in excess for entertainment. All below a 6th grade level mind you and deprived of what they really need.Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzy
Sandform wants more slush. Lets show him what the real crabbage is!
http://images.wbur.org/content/2006/08/18/crabbage.jpg
That was fun. Are you proposing that 9/11 was staged or that they used an unfortunate event to their advantage?
Because I'll agree that they use things like this to redirect focus...
But I wont agree that 9/11 was staged.
Yup yup, and yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
If only America was as smart as you Phoenix :)
As for 9/11 I don't know what to believe honestly.
The government story sounds fishy.
The conspiracy story sounds even more fishy.
I believe neither
But what I do believe is that the government wanted "another pearl harbor event" that quote is courtesy of the PNAC
(project for a new american century)
Cronies of cheney and bush started this neo-conservative think tank and in their manifesto they stated
They need a new pearl harbor, a catalyzing event...to rally the people to goto war
And they did it alright...they USED 9/11...the deaths of 3,000+ to benefit themselves by invading iraq and afghanistan
The reason for us being in afghanistan originally was to build an oil pipeline to the caspian sea.
And iraq was invaded to setup our ENORMOUS base which is bigger then the vatican...this base is the base of the NWO accoring to The rockefellers themselves
This is no lie either, no bull...no strings...
They probably LOVED 9/11...without 9/11 there wouldn't be a war on terror
There would be no patriot act giving more power to the president.
There would be no suspension of habeus corpus, and the military commisions act of 2007 wouldn't exist.
I don't think there is enough solid evidence to say that 9-11 was "staged", or even enough to determine on what level that the government was involved. But it's more than just redirecting our focus. The neo-cons act like terrorism is something that can be defeated. The war on terror cannot succeed. There have been terrorists for as long as there have been oppressive governments. Some people call these people terrorist, others call them freedom fighters. It all just matters what side you think that your on. But there are no sides. We are all human beings. Violence cannot solve our problems, only create new ones.
Zorro!
Yea honestly, the 'insurgents' in Iraq are just iraqi civilians who are pissed off about having their family murdered by "PRECISION GUIDED BOMBS"
Precision my ASS! Children and women and men don't deserve to be killed in their own homes minding their own business, they are freedom fighters...fighting for THEIR OWN FREEDOM!
I haven't heard of an al qaeda related death in iraq, al qaeda is a band of idiots who have a few rpgs...wowie what a threat.
I read a short story once that a US Marine posted on youtube...well i didn't read it i listened in..
Anyways so this is how it goes
He stops someone in the street who was going to attack, and he goes to him
"what are you doing here?"
The iraqi goes
"what the hell are YOU doing here, this is my country and im protecting my family...my daughter was killed last week by YOUR MEN, you guys are the terrorists..."
The marine actually let him go...took his weapons
Reporter: What do you think about western civilization?
Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.
Sandform I'm taking mental notes on your strategy. I will simply call this one. "Zorro distraction". [Desperation: 9.8 Lucid Alert: Red].Quote:
Originally Posted by sandform
No my dear, this was in reference to comments on stand alone heroes from television. Taking mental notes would indeed be helpful, if you weren't a tool... Perhaps in this thread or another someone mentioned "Rambo" but it was a person from this thread, and then Stonedape commented on perspectives of terrorism sooo...Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
welcome to Minerva watch.
Update:
Sandform uses: Zorro justification shield.
Description:
To link zorro to non existent super hero discussion and then to the thread. Eliminate original Zorro tactic revelation. Throw in name call while Linking Zorro to past events for structure legitimacy.
While this was the obvious next move. There was one weak spot. People might not understand so readily how Zorro fitted it.
Suggestion to improve Zorro combo.
Instead of using the word 'tool'. Try the word 'idiot'.
Example: 'Taking notes would be useful. If you weren't an idiot'.
Reason? While a 'tool' is a useful description of someone who can't help anyone. Idiot seems more useless. This makes it more suitable to destroy your original Zorro distraction and build a new Zorro combo in it's place.
Final Tip:
Mentioning the word perhaps in your Zorro relevance story weakens it's realism. Safeguarding against verification while sometimes useful is not always the most powerful combo.
Desperation: 1.2 Lucid Alert: Green
Who said super hero?...I said Hero. Rambo was mentioned in the aids thread by Ranma, and then Stonedape mentioned terrorist perspectives. I mentioned Zorro. Feel free to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
I called you a tool because you're not a moron you're just a tool. Though you might think I'm refering to the human penis I was actually refering to items which are mediums to accomplish goals. You are a pawn.
Meanwhile no one would have even noticed the zorro statement if you hadn't decided to place fake significance and purpose to it...like you do with many things. :bliss:
Stay tuned to the Minerva's watch...pretty soon she expects a statement relating her to trolls to occur and it will be an accurate forecast.
Really who is using distraction tactics here Minerva? Someone who made a candid statement or the person who is trying to use the candid statement to prove a false point?
http://www.cultureclash.com/blog_images/zorroche.jpg
Why are we still talking about zorro?
Haha sandform, don't take me that seriously. You are now arguing with what was my attempt at humor nothing more than that.
QFT!Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Freedom is pretty hard to define. Lets say we have a perfect utopia, with perfect laws, it isn't really matter what they are (, or if they can even exist) in this case. But what if despite that perfection, you place a TV next to someone's house, displaying propaganda in favour of a governor, a product, a way to wear your hair. The person in the house Can choose not to watch to the tv. But of course he or she will. Is the person less free? If the person decides to wear his hair in a Mohawk, because for days on end the TV told him that was cool, was that a free choice? Mhhh, not completely.
The barrage of propaganda is obvious in America. But the question is whether freedom from things like propaganda is possible, or especially relevant. Everything could be called propaganda. Movie-reviews are, perhaps, not very different. Whether or not there is an intention behind something, things can drastically influence people's choices.
But this rigid complete freedom I am aiming at, is actually kind of non-existant. We always do what we do for reasons. There is so much you can objectively report. There is always bias in reporting about for instance politics.
Therefore, I guess all we can strive for is a government that tries to ensure maximum freedom, basically all freedom but those freedoms that would mean taking away other people's freedoms. But a government that also tries to keep people informed, proper education is essential to proper choice, or at least a government would do good to try to avoid misleading advertising, and such. Even then, it is pretty hard to say whether someone really made a free choice choosing coca-cola, and not pepsi.
-
However. America both fails in having laws that give maximum freedom in all cases, but those that endanger others. (Easy examples are drugs being illegal and gay marriage being illegal)
And in trying to secure some means to keep things like journalistic integrity alive. Letting people lie to your people on massive scale is taking away freedom of (informed) choice. Lying to your people yourself is undermining democracy itself.
But hey, after most of European countries, America is still relatively free. (Still, highly uninformed/uneducated for such a rich country.)
We are told we live in a "Democracy". According to etymology "Democracy" is made up of two Greek words. "Demos" meaning "The people, or Mob". And Cracy "rule of". So Democracy means "Rule of the people"
I would more correctly say We live in a Monecracy. Rule of The Money!
Money= Power in a monecracy. As you all know Power corrupts. And Ultimate power corrupts Absolutely.
Pathetic, spoiled spectators. None of you understand the military or what we do. You complain and complain about how hard your lives are and how the government oppresses you. You have no idea what oppression is. NO fucking idea.
Guerilla, stop pretending to have ANY idea what is going on in Iraq or what the Iraqi's mindset is. You say insurgents are just Iraqi citizens that are pissed at us? Bullshit. There are everything from Eqyptians to Chechnians fighting in Iraq. And as for precision bombs, they are so accurate that not only can they hit a target house, they can hit a certain room within that house. They are as precise as the intel the fighter pilot gets.
And as for America, we have it so easy. Yea, we brag about being the representation of freedom, while we might be the most free. So what? Stop being pampered.
We may call ourselves democratic be we are still a republic...Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
Though I might add that in modern times the country I live in considers ourselves to be a democratic republic.
The military is made up of good people who have been deceived. People in the military beleive that they are fighting to protect our freedoms. In what way has the war in Iraq made this world any more free? Iraq is not a free country, its in worse shape now than before. But besides that, we started a war for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
I agree with you about most americans being spoiled though. We are so used to doing things the easy way. So, when it comes to freedom we choose to act childish and fight, rather than talk things out the difficult way.
How is Iraq worse now than it was? It's free from a tyrant now.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Iraq is fucked up. Theres a lot of violence there. Are more Iraqis dead because of the war?
Besides that you can't start a war because there is a tyrant in control of that country. You would say Iraqis have more freedom now than before we started a war in their country?
Considering Saddam committed genocide on Iraqi Kurds, people were dieing before the war, and there was lots of violence before also.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Yes, they have more freedom now than before.
Yes but violdnce, genocide, and war are all bad. In what way did we make any good? Before there was a dictator, now only chaos. So I guess you right, there is more freedom there because the government is beyond retarted and has no way of establishing peace in the next few years. I'm sure Iraqis love all the new freedoms of military occupation.
How are they more free? Saddam is not a good enough reason to start a war. There are still plenty of dictators and genocides which we do nothing about. You do realize that we started a war? This is kinda the first time america just went out and attacked some country.
This war was over oil, not Freedom.
Awww:hug: Don't say that. Congratulations on your new robot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
OMG!!
This is like listening to bunch of toddlers at preschool arguing about why mummy and daddy wont let you play outside on the road... For your own fucking protection you shortsighted idiots!!
Ill give to you in a nutshell; Wake up from your delusions and smell the coffee! There will never be true 'freedom', there has never been true 'freedom'. We sacrifice a small amount of our freedom for our own protection. If you don't like that go and set up your own 'free' society or cultivation with no leader, no hierarchy and no laws. Then you could wait for all the rapists, murders and child molesters to come and join the party, they would love the no laws, 'free' society!
Sounds like another angry person who has no confidence in human potential. You are the short sited one if you think freedom is impossible. I don't need the law to govern myself and I'm not going to use the police as a teddy bear against criminals. Anyone can take the law into their own hands and I encourage it. The problem of Rapists, murders and child molesters is not solved. So it doesn't work.
A new more intelligent way will eliminate the threat. I am that way and others that agree with me.
How do people honestly support the war in Iraq??? If you wanna disagree with the freedom thing then fine. But we started a war in Iraq for no good reason. I have friends in the millitary that I would rather not have die in a war over oil.
Why are you so scared? Life is not that dangerous.
Yeah I don't know why he is so frighten either. It's not fine to disagree with freedom though.
Go fuck yourself, murderer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Half/Dreaming if they are spectators you are part of the problem actively. Your decisions have become someone else's decisions. If anyone is pampered it's you who followers orders and never developed the responsibility of thinking independently. You have no idea what independent thinking involves. So you joined the army which takes that particular burden away from you. But it's only part time scouts is it?
Hold on. Stop attacking the millitary. It only encourages them. If you are going to debate someone about war, you have allow them try to justify the war. This is almost impossible, as there are very few situations which war needs to be fought. In the case of the Iraq war, we attacked them on the basis of WMDs. 1)This is not enough evidence to start a war, as many countries have WMDs and we do not attack them. 2)Iraq didn't even have WMDs.
Stop with all the name calling. If you disagree with what someone says, attack their words, not them.
I don't attack the military the military attacks me. I could have being living in Iraq when they bombed it. I could be dead like the other civilians. It could have being you. We could be dead because of them. Don't think they wouldn't kill us.Quote:
Stop attacking the millitary
If Half/Dreaming grew up into the army and he was ordered to shoot us he would murder us.
Exactly my point. He was thrown into a confusing spot where most people supporte the millitary and violence. It's extremely hard to understand non violence coming from a background of violence. He beleives he is fighting for freedom. He has been deceived. Don't attack him, attack that which deceives him and show him the way to peace. Calling names only creates more anger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Stonedape/minervas pheonix I think the only ones decieved here are you two. One's a pothead, and the other is a woman.
Labes and brands. Why do you feel the need to label everything and put it in a neat little so you can feel safe? I'm not a pothead, I'm a human being who smokes pot. Where is the relvence of any of this to freedom or war? Let's try to stay on topic, maybe discuss something meaningful.
I didn't call him any names though.Quote:
Calling names only creates more anger.
How does that make me deceived because I'm a woman?Quote:
Stonedape/minervas pheonix I think the only ones decieved here are you two. One's a pothead, and the other is a woman.
I never said it was over freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
How are they more free? There's no longer a dictator over them. The fact that there are more dictators causing genocide in the world has nothing to do with Iraq's freedom.
So you don't believe Saddam killing Iraqi Kurds in his own country was chaos?Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
I'm sure if you went to Iraq and asked them if they like the government they have now or a tyrant like Saddam better, they'd pick the government now. This type of government is new to them and will obviously take time getting used to, you can't perfect something like that quickly.
As for why the war was started in Iraq, as far as I'm concerned, is for the Golf War embarrassment Bush Sr. went through, and Bush wanted revenge.
http://www.crrange.com/wall160.html
Quote:
However, in his recent speech before the United Nations, President Bush revealed the real reason we invaded Iraq. He said plainly that the reason we invaded Iraq was "to defend the peace and the credibility of the United Nations."
What...your going to go all vigilantly on us...? Like that would help anybody, 'Yea, lets all go out, buy guns and start shooting the people who we think (like we are all holy and mighty) have made a mess of their lives. Without any trial or any Attorney. Just BANG, your dead 'cause you pissed me off', as if that's going to mend our 'broken' society' that you talk of so haphazardly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
I don't need the law to govern myself and I'm not going to use the police as a teddy bear against criminals. Anyone can take the law into their own hands and I encourage it.
Thank you i agree! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
If you wanna disagree with the freedom thing then fine.
Ha, so many flaws in that argument 'could have, could be'. Thats an insult to the people who 'were', the people who 'are'. The only reason why you weren't and aren't is because your sitting there, helpless and so unaware of whats happening around you, under the protection of your government!! Well, poor you, having to sacrifice a small amount of freedom for your safety and life!Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
I don't attack the military the military attacks me. I could have being living in Iraq when they bombed it. I could be dead like the other civilians. It could have being you. We could be dead because of them.
:?Quote:
the other is a woman.
That's not my code of conduct. Is it yours? The government is not my protection. Is it yours?Quote:
BANG, your dead 'cause you pissed me off'
Just because I said I could be murdered by the military who do go 'bang your dead caused you pissed me off'. Naming the actual threat is not an insult to dead people who have being the victims of them.
If you don't smarten up you will be the dung fertilizer for the new society to grow.
My point is you can't start a war just because that country is controlled by a dictator. You need more of a reason to START A WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
The current Iraqi government has no power. The country is in a military state. I'd rather live under a dictator than in a military state where you have to worry about your house being bombed or your family being killed. If we were going to do something to help Iraq then we should have done something useful, not start a war. If this was over saddam we could have just killed him. We didn't have to start a war.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
So you support a war over vengence? What a waste of life, how can you support something like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
Yes, and he gave the reason, although it wasn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Oh, ok, I didn't know the military was over there killing innocent civilians and blowing their houses up, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, I'd rather live under a dictator to, having to fear everyday for my life and my family's life and hopefully not being a target for genocide. Nice reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
I'm glad you make the assumption that I support the war, good job. Thanks for telling me what I support and don't support.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
So, the answer to this thread is a consensual 'no'?
It just cracks me up to see how, in discussions like this, some 13 yo always comes up saying "WTF ARE YOU SAYING MENZ AMERICA IS FREE YOU DUMBS COMMUNISM IS BAD" and immediately go away. Either they're a proof of political propaganda in America, or people with incredible sense of humour. In any case, government manipulation means the country is not free.
Lolz!! Firstly, i was using hyperbole (i thought with your 'seamlessness' you would have noticed that!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Secondly, you did sayThis is implying that YOU do want kill off all the criminals.Quote:
Anyone can take the law into their own hands and I encourage it.
Thirdly, the government is everyones protection (in the western civilization). And you cant disagree with this because if, for example, armed men entered your house to kill you and take all of your valuable possessions. The first thing you would do would be to call the police, ie let the government protect and save your ass.
And finally, the fact that you where toying with the idea that you could've been killed along with countless innocent Iraqis, just to prove a point in an argument is a very cynical thing to do. You mightn't think so, but that's because, its seems to me, that you are a heartless and selfish person. By using poorly constructed, tasteless and patronizing counter-arguments, that revolve around you always being right ^^.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7541/woman2lg6.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
It seems to me everyone thinks "America is free" means that it must be 100% free like we have anarchy here or something. "America is free" refers to our freedom of speech, religion, and press.
You know, because some countries don't let you have a freedom of speech, religion, or press.
The press is not free. American media is 99% garbage/propaganda. This is where modern people get their information. They therefore make bad deciscions, like president bush for example. The electoral process in this country is messed up. We elect leaders based on whose campaign has the most money, rather than on ideals. We have gotten to the point where people are voting for a candidate so that the other candidate doesn't win. Mccain and obama both suck. They both have bad ideas on what to do.
Considering you can pretty much write about anything you want and have it published, it is freedom of the press. If you want to write a book calling the government stupid along with whatever else, you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Most of the people I know make their votes based on who they think is better suited for office. That's an assumption, not a fact. It has nothing to do with America being free or not.
I disagree. if you don't have money, your book isn't getting read, unless you are really good at writing. Besides that people don't read books nowadays, they just watch tv and maybe read the paper or some magazines. The political news is completely biased towards the 2 party system. This is not a good system. It works against the people and gives more power to the rich.
You think mccain, obama, bush, kerry, gore, clinton, or any other recent candidate deserved to be in office? These people are all carreer politicians. They lie to people. They therefore should not be trusted with the office of president. This is costing americans freedom right now. Patriot act. Homegrown terrorism act. These acts take away constitutional rights. The government admittingly has been wiretapping phones. This is illegal. This is unconstitutional. This is an attack on freedom.
No, young intellectual, you go fuck yourself. I could help if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Define "murderer" for me please.
You disagree on the freedom of press and your argument against it is about money? That has nothing to do with freedom of press.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
People don't read books? My entire family reads books, so that's a false statement.
Everything you've talked about so far has yet to show me that freedom of speech, religion, and press are being affected.
News on telivision is a form of press. Almost all local news is affiliated with a network telivision that broadcasts nationally. This is where people get their information from when it comes to things political and everyday life. These stations are extremely biased toward the two party system, a system which keeps things from actually getting accomplished.
And In the statement about books, I was only reffering to what I have observed in high school and college in the city. People my age don't read books. Not the majority of them. What I am stating is that in america, less people read books now(since the invention of tv) than before when looked at by comparrison to the total population. and that people spend more time watching tv then they do reading books. This seems to be the case for most people I know. Not all but a majority.
Everything that I have talked about relates to the electoral system in america, which has serious problems that we do nothing to fix.
Yes, a form of press, it doesn't make up the entire press.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Electoral system has nothing to do with freedom? All it is is a voting system. Our government now is more free than a dictatorship or a communist government.
Hahahahhahahahahahaha. Yeah, yeah, yes it is xDQuote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
You don't understand what the organised State means.
I don't think America is 100% 'free' (due to reasons i have already explained), but its one of the most free. For evidence of a country with very little freedom, look at China;Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
If you were to publish or say anything controversial about the government in China you get arrested and sent to jail! You aren't even allowed to view websites, unless they are based in Chine and approved by the Chinese government!Quote:
Considering you can pretty much write about anything you want and have it published, it is freedom of the press. If you want to write a book calling the government stupid along with whatever else, you can.
This is all just your opinion; '99% garbage', 'most money', both suck', 'bad decisions', this proves nothing. How about some facts for a change, as opposed to your exaggerated and blurred views.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Again blurred, exaggerated and, this time, even untrue and irrelevant.Quote:
I disagree. if you don't have money, your book isn't getting read, unless you are really good at writing.
Your making this sound like the government's fault. The government wants more people to read for better educations. So what exactly are you saying; you want the government to force you to read books and take away the television?, Yea, because that sounds 'very free'!Quote:
People my age don't read books. Not the majority of them. What I am stating is that in america, less people read books now(since the invention of tv) than before when looked at by comparrison to the total population.
Sorry, i don't quite understand your tone, are you being sarcastic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromoh
Hahahahhahahahahahaha. Yeah, yeah, yes it is xD
You don't understand what the organised State means.
That was very rude.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
Not if it is the police doing that and not if the government didn't take away my right to arm myself to deal with them. Government is a different organization than the police and just because I want to eliminate crime doesn't mean I want to kill people.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
The quote thing is fucking up, So this is a response to what 5triker said about facts:
I agree I haven't been providing many facts, but no one has. Thats not the kind of debate this has been. You don't need facts to observe that whats on teleivision is a bunch of garbage. It's fairly obvious. Watch a classic movie, read a decent book. Now compare that with whats on tv. It seems like garbage by comparisson. Despite that this should be obvious, almost everyone I know watches tv on a daily basis. Sorry I don't have any bullshit statistic to back that up, but I think we can agree that most people watch tv regularly.
It is the governments fault. The school system in america is set up by the government. The people who set it up did not do a very good job. This is why young kids act like complete dumbasses nowadays. That and that people expect the school system to raise their kids for them now. The government does not want people to read. If it did, it would change the way that reading is taught in schools. I am in no way suggesting laws. I suggest changes be made in the american school system. Not the bullshit "changes" obama claims he will make, but real changes that actually accomplish something.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
It makes up the current majority. It is where people get most of their info on current events. This makes it very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
AHAhaaha!!! Thats hilarious man. Thats gotta be one of the funniest jokes I've heard all day. The electoral system has nothing to do with freedom. Wow. This kind of thought coming from an intellegent person is rather scary. Govenrment has nothing to do with freedom? Your kidding right?Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
And I think we can all agree that comunism and dictators suck. No one here has been suggesting either as alternatives to the current system.
I dont really know what to say because I agree partially with alot of the posts in the thread -
So basically this is the only way I can sum it up in a semi-organized manner.
I agree that there should be more freedom and more regulation of what the government can do so they cant get away with things like the patriot act. I am against the war, but I respect the troops. I also think America is a great country in its original concept (this is hard to put into words) - basically when the constitution is upheld and the government & media isnt all over the place creating unnecessary fear (Honestly, its not just terrorist fears either). What I'm trying to say is the way this country should be instead of how it is - is worth patriotism IMO.
But I do agree with "nitsuJ" when he said that some people seem to think Anarchy means freedom, while theres many laws that are ridiculous some are more complex issues than others and probably require more thought than just law or not law. This might be a bit extreme but should you legalize murder because many people still might not murder someone? I can say there are bad schools and I'm not even in the city - luckily from grade six on up I didnt have to go to public school (IIRC). I got taught half-cursive in elementary and they never even finished teaching it so now I only know how to write some of the cursive, its ridiculous to do things like that.
For the record, I'm 17 and I do read some books and I also read ebooks and internet articles, more people should probably do so - but who am I to tell people they cant watch TV? I sometimes watch TV (not often) but to be honest, its usually for entertainment, movies and shows (although lately crappy reality television is ruining that). I hear enough of the depressing fear-riddled news that I just stay away from it. To add to that though - who am I to tell people how much they can or cannot own, or how much money they can make while they are out earning it if this was to be a free society? Some of the things I sometimes read almost sound like contradictions to freedom. I'd like to avoid both anarchy and government tyranny.
Sorry, i was very tired when i typed that, didn't mean it to sound so harsh. I realize that just because we've got different opinions on a subject matter there is no need to throw insults around ^^.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
I don't know what province you live in, but until this actually happens with American Police, i would quit the surmising and harsh accusations.Quote:
Not if it is the police doing that and not if the government didn't take away my right to arm myself to deal with them.
Also, there is the self-defense motive to this. If you really were in a life or death situation you could shoot the armed criminal in your house in self-defense and you wouldn't be prosecuted.
Lolz? I didn't refer to this exact statement as being exaggerated, i was talking about your most of your posts containing a lot of hyperbole and just purely untrue information. Of course not every single statement you write will be exaggerated and/or false.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Despite that this should be obvious, almost everyone I know watches tv on a daily basis. Sorry I don't have any bullshit statistic to back that up, but I think we can agree that most people watch tv regularly.
And yet another exaggerated lie, but this time i have evidence that your lying;Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
It is the governments fault. The school system in america is set up by the government. The people who set it up did not do a very good job. This is why young kids act like complete dumbasses nowadays. That and that people expect the school system to raise their kids for them now. The government does not want people to read. If it did, it would change the way that reading is taught in schools. I am in no way suggesting laws. I suggest changes be made in the american school system. Not the bullshit "changes" obama claims he will make, but real changes that actually accomplish something.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9...trends8gt6.gif
For full document; http://www.gradeinflation.com/
School grades increasing = better education = not governments fault!
And BTW its the young kids' responsibility to get good grades, they need to have the determination to do well in order to do so. Its hardly the governments fault for some kids not being determined enough.
Lolz!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory :D!!
They have nothing to do with freedom of religion, speech, or press. Yeah, government deals with freedom, but you're never going to have a totally free country or it'd be an anarchy. America being "free" refers to our freedoms of religion, speech, press. It doesn't mean we're free to go rape people and kill little kids and pillage cities for shits and giggles. It seems you're blaming the government for not having a 100% free country, do you want an anarchy?Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Tell me what's not so free about America? I really want to know what your argument is. Is it that you can't do drugs legally? I mean that's the only thing I can really think a person could argue about, unless you want to go out and rape some woman or sacrifice kids or something. The only drug that I'd ever want to see legalized if I had to choose one would be marijuana because all of the other drugs are garbage and not as safe. But, do you want to know why marijuana isn't legal?
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/dru...na-Illegal.htm
You know, another reason it's illegal in my opinion, is that it'd be hard to tax since there's so many people out distributing it. So tell me, what's your argument for the U.S. not being free?Quote:
1. It is perceived as addictive.
Under the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, marijuana is classified as a Schedule I drug on the basis that is has "a high potential for abuse." What does this mean?
It means that the perception is that people get on marijuana, they get hooked and become "potheads," and it begins to dominate their lives. This unquestionably happens in some cases. But it also happens in the case of alcohol--and alcohol is perfectly legal.
In order to fight this argument for prohibition, legalization advocates need to make the argument that marijuana is not as addictive as government sources claim.
2. It has "no accepted medical use."
Marijuana seems to yield considerable medical benefits for many Americans with ailments ranging from glaucoma to cancer, but these benefits have not been accepted well enough, on a national level. Medical use of marijuana remains a serious national controversy.
In order to fight the argument that marijuana has no medical use, legalization advocates need to highlight the effects it has had on the lives of people who have used the drug for medical reasons.
3. It has been historically linked with narcotics, such as heroin.
The first piece of federal legislation to formally regulate marijuana was the Narcotics Act of 1914, which regulated heroin, cocaine, and marijuana. The only trouble is that cocaine and marijuana are not technically narcotics; the word "narcotic," when used in English, has historically referred to opium derivatives such as heroin and morphine.
But the association stuck, and there is a vast gulf in the American consciousness between "normal" recreational drugs, such as alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine, and "abnormal" recreational drugs, such as heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine. Marijuana is generally associated with the latter category, which is why it can be convincingly portrayed as a "gateway drug."
4. It is associated with unfashionable lifestyles.
Marijuana is often thought of as a drug for hippies and losers. Since it's hard to feel enthusiastic about the prospects of enabling people to become hippies and losers, imposing criminal sanctions for marijuana possession functions as a form of communal "tough love."
5. It was once associated with oppressed ethnic groups.
The intense anti-marijuana movement of the 1930s dovetailed nicely with the intense anti-Chicano movement of the 1930s. Marijuana was associated with Mexican Americans, and a ban on marijuana was seen as a way of discouraging Mexican-American subcultures from developing.
Today, thanks in large part to the very public popularity of marijuana among whites during the 1960s and 1970s, marijuana is no longer seen as what one might call an ethnic drug--but the groundwork for the anti-marijuana movement was laid down at a time when marijuana was seen as an encroachment on the U.S. majority-white culture.
6. Inertia is a powerful force in public policy.
If something has been banned for only a short period of time, then the ban is seen as unstable. If something has been banned for a long time, however, then the ban--no matter how ill-conceived it might be--tends to go unenforced long before it is actually taken off the books.
Take the ban on sodomy, for example. It hasn't really been enforced in any serious way since the 18th century, but most states technically banned same-sex sexual intercourse until the Supreme Court ruled such bans unconstitutional in Lawrence v. Texas (2003).
People tend to be comfortable with the status quo--and the status quo, for nearly a century, has been a literal or de facto federal ban on marijuana.
7. Advocates for marijuana legalization rarely present an appealing case.
To hear some advocates of marijuana legalization say it, the drug cures diseases while it promotes creativity, open-mindedness, moral progression, and a closer relationship with God and/or the cosmos. That sounds incredibly foolish, particularly when the public image of a marijuana user is, again, that of a loser who risks arrest and imprisonment so that he or she can artificially invoke an endorphin release.
A much better argument for marijuana legalization, from my vantage point, would go more like this: "It makes some people happy, and it doesn't seem to be any more dangerous than alcohol. Do we really want to go around putting people in prison and destroying their lives over this?"
Have you people who think that the education system is so great ever had a really good teacher? I have had 1, and he is on a completely different level than every other teacher I've ever had. This is because he developed his own method for teaching. The current education system is not a good system. The GPA graph does not prove anything about reading. Actually it shows that government funded schools continuosly do worse than private schools. The standard of education has gotten so low that you don't even have to show up or do homework in a class in order to pass it. I did dumb shit like this all the time in highschool and still managed a 3.4 GPA. GPA rising is caused by the level of thought required to pass a class dropping. The grade based system does not work well. Thats one of the things that fairly obvious to people who are good teachers.
Also which GPA system uses a 7 point system? Mine is 5 point, and I don't have the article to back this up, but I beleive that the 4th and 5th point were added at different points during the last 30 years. Statistics are not necessary when the truth is obvious.
Are any of you people in college? College used to be a place of higher learning. Now its a place to party. What the fuck? Don't get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with partying, but you can't do that shit all the time. The guy who lived next to me in the dorms only showed up to 2 classes all semester last year. The school system does not work well, read a newspaper, politicians always talking about how the education system need fixed, but all they ever do is throw a bunch of money at it. Thats not gonna fix anything, it just avoids the problem.
Thank you, Thank you, THANK YOU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromoh
For saying that. I thought there was nobody with a brain left here on DV....I seem to read countless posts of
"of course we're free, we can buy guns and shoot them and run around naked...thats freedom!"
One teacher doesn't make up the whole teacher population. It's up to the student to do good in school, not the teacher. I've had shitty teachers, but I didn't let that stop me from passing the subject. Just because you have a shitty teacher doesn't give you a reason to not do well in a subject, you have all the material you need to pass (I.E. books).Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
GPA is a 4.0 scale, or supposed to be. Colleges are 4.0 scales, high schools are usually 4.0 - 5.0 scales. Test scores make up more than homework scores do, I also did that in most of my classes. Skip homework assignments and make up the bad grades with my test grades.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
College isn't the same as high school, you pay for college and if you don't want to go you don't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
That is freedom. It seems most of you want an anarchy. If you want to live in an anarchist country then have at it. Don't expect to live in luxury though.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
I've explained my argument before. Yes, I do want anarchy, but not right away. I explained this earlier and everyone had a good time making fun of it. I just want less government. Our government is way too big. We have so many laws that you can't actually regulate anything. Like drugs for example. People who want to do drugs are always gonna do drugs regardless of the law. But start a new thread if you wanna talk about drugs, because I'll ramble on about that shit for days.
You do not understand the fundementals of anarchy, so lets try to avoid the topic. People who actually understand anarchy do not want to a small group to overthrow the government. They want people to have faith in humanity and realize that we do not need the government to tell us what do in order to know what is right and wrong. Right and wrong are things your parents have to teach you.
We live in a society fueled by violence. This is not a good thing. Kids watch violent shit on tv all day. This leads to thinking that though violence is bad, it is acceptable in some situations. This is not true. There is never a reason to start a physical fight with someone. All violence spawns from ignorance.
We have created this great society through laws, but we do not need these laws to sustain it. We only need to guide others in the right direction.
No, no and no.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
that is NOT FREEDOM.
Far from it.
Freedom means, you can do what you please in your area, without consequences, such as:
Doing drugs, I have EVERY fucking right to put a chemical in MY body whenever I choose, its immoral to jail me for this
We should be allowed to burn the american flag in public without consequence, we should be able to burn photos of politicians in public, and we should be able to speak out with vulgar language in public..
I have read countless stories of protesters being arrested for expressing their opinions in a non-violent form, is that freedom?
A 18 year old boy was protesting about george bush and recorded the whole thing, the cops come by and arrest him...for wearing an anti-bush shirt
NOW TELL ME IS THAT FREEDOM?????????????
Our media is totally controlled by government's best friend goons like rupert murdoch and his retarted cronies, the media is propaganda and it misleads and it lies out of its ass
Our media is pretty much government run, thats not freedom.
Harshly criticizing the government, almost threatening them, this isn't allowed...if you harshly threaten the government with tough words you just may wake up in GITMO.
There's where it all leads to...gitmo
Gitmo is the single most non-democratic thing ever instituted ever by america.
The existence of such a place voids our democracy.
We created the geneva convention to prevent torture, and look at us now WE TORTURE PRISONERS.
Is that very democratic?
You can have your house searched 'sneak and peak' and there doesn't have to be a warrant issued either, due to the patriot act.
ANY FBI AGENT can create his own warrant without permission and also...if you happen to be detained by the government you are entitled to NO LAWYER.
You all get wire tapped without knowing it...freedom my ASS.
Now please, let the adults speak because you obviously don't see whats going on with our 'freedom' today in this nation, its being taken away and the clock is ticking on democracy, its dying...in some peoples minds democracy is already dead.
Thank God someone is smart enough to talk some sense, for a change, here!Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
It was like arguing with a bunch of toddlers;
'ahhh! the government is like so bad, they wont come and clean my ass!' Grow up!!!
I was going to argue with stonedape, but i think you've mentioned the points i would have mention. You've got it covered!
Have you watched TV during natural disasters, like hurricane Katrina, when people started looting stores? Yeah, that'd happen every day in an anarchist country. There'd be no government, there'd be no law.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Yeah, you're right, who needs laws? Let's have an anarchy so everyone can rape people and kill each other and get away with it, because y'know it's legal now. Let's also have our good 'ole anarchist country so we can inflate prices way too high so people either have to buy or die. Yeah, sounds good to me too. It'd be awesome living in a country without laws, because then everyone that wanted to kill/rape/whatever other horrendous crime they want to carry out could do it. We wouldn't need prisons anymore obviously since there'd be no reason for them being in prison. I mean seriously, what did they do? There's no law anymore, so there's no reason to have people behind bars. In fact, prison couldn't exist anymore since it's a government ran thing. I'm sure with anarchy they won't go out and commit crimes anymore and the crime rate would fade out. Not to mention schools won't exist anymore unless they're privately funded, and then of course you're going to have to pay for your children to go to them. There will be no form of government help anymore either, not to mention other useful government programs. Goodness, I'm so silly for believing the world is a better place without anarchy.
For me, this thread is over.....too many brainwashed kiddies who watch too much mainstream media and gobble up that trash they call 'facts'
I hope you guys realise your freedom is going to vanish within the next 4 years, enjoy it while it lasts because when its gone we will enter dark dark times.
And i'm not even kidding...the economy will collapse in time...the Us dollar will be replaced with the Amero currency and american national sovereignty will be history along with the united states constitution.
Its called the North American union, and its on our doorstep.
Don't forget about the REAL ID...we will be required to do miles of paperwork and submitt personal information to the department of homeland in-security and we will have to carry the ID with us everywhere or we cannot get a job or drive a car.
and thats just the beginning, those cards will have a GPS embedded in them, and eventually the RFID chips will be embedded in your hands...tracking your every movement.
Freedom!....oh yea!...:rolleyes:
Oh, ok, you want an anarchy? Just think, the KKK will fire back up and start beating the shit out of anything that isn't straight and white, not to mention other racist groups. Will you be happy with that? Obviously you will be because you'll be happy with total freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
Obviously, your eyes aren't open to what total freedom means.
Have fun living in an anarchist country.
Conspiracy theories seem to fuel your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
Its not a theory, its fact.
And I never said I wanted anarchy, put words in peoples mouths much? thats what un-educated people do.
But don't listen to me, just keep being a blind sheep and keep trotting along the patriotic path, like a good little soldier that the neo-con nazi government wants.
Anarchy sucks, but our system is even worse...just because we want more freedom doesn't mean we want anarchy, its funny to see how quick you jump the gun and accuse people of something their against.
Don't assume i'm an anarchist because im not, don't assume, it makes an ass out of you and me.
Ok, Nostradamus. I wasn't aware you're able to see the future. Hell, I didn't even know you knew what the government's plans are.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
If you want total freedom, you want anarchy. You can't have total freedom with a form of government.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
No Government = Anarchy = Total Freedom
I never uttered the words total freedom, once again you are assuming, I don't even bother speaking with people who assume they know everything about everyone, good day sir, i'm afraid i've already wasted my time, breath and energy trying to explain something to someone so far off the other end.
BTW justin, as a last post in here for me:
READ 1984
Thats all.
So what, all you want is drugs to be allowed for use/abuse? Do you even know why drugs are illegal? The only drug that should ever be legalized, if ever, is marijuana. Is that your argument on the U.S. being free in your eyes, allowing drug use?Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
OH SHIT!:shock: I knew this was about to happen, thats why I said that we should avoid talking about anarchy. nitsuJ, you do not understand what is meant by anarchy, so your arguements make no sense. They do when your talking about the punk rock version of anarchy, but thats not what I'm talking about.
Real anarchy is basically about having less laws now so that anarchy(Peace and Freedom) can be established. It's not like tommarow all the laws are gone kinda bullshit. This kind of thing takes time. At least a year, probubly much longer. There is enough food and shelter to go around, for every person in the world. This is true, and we have known this for a while. Yet we are consistently forced to be selfish because capitilism says you have to look out for yourself first. We live in such excess in this country. Its sad. Excess does not bring happiness, in fact it pushes it further away. We live in such a lonely culture. People are so cuaght up in themselves and what they have to do that they have no time for others. Not everyone, I know, but most people. We have been convinced that everything is so important, that now it seems as if nothing is important.
EDIT: lets start another thread for the drug thing, I just don't want this topic to get buried in a legalize it! debate
You guys seriously. Its like OMGZ GOMENZ NO! We want more freedom, even for the fools who will not do things appropriately. We want more freedom, even though no matter what you do people will abuse this freedom.
Think about the freedoms we have now. How many freedoms are already abused? LOL. How about all of them.
Pseudo intellectual tools of anti-establishment.
Yes, there are laws that can be changed for the better of the country, but the laws you would like to change are just foolish.
We can't give you free reign because that means giving free reign to everyone else, and there is literally no doubt that people will abuse it. When proposing laws you have to think of the benefits versus the detriment. What you propose has far more detriment than benefit.
Just because your anarchy involves peace doesn't mean others do. The world doesn't revolve around you, and your beliefs aren't shared by everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Anarchy is the absence of government, and without government there are no laws. If I woke up tomorrow in an anarchist world, yes I would be waking up in a lawless world able to do whatever I please.
ANARCHY:
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
Real anarchy is about having to government and no laws both. Therefore, my arguments make sense.
Anarchy with law =/= Anarchy.
Anarchy with law = Government still.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are a huge punk rock fan. I bet you think Green Day is the shit, too. It says a lot about your personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
If you think Anarchy is a better system than the system in the US, then how can you call anyone else uneducated?
Am I uneducated?
Oh no, they don't want anarchy, they just seem to want total freedom. Apparently there's a government out there that offers total freedom and they aren't anarchists. LOLOLOL. Silly us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
His argument on why the U.S. isn't free seemed to be because he can't put whatever chemicals he wants into his body. Last time I checked you can do any drug you want to, he should just be prepared to face the consequences since the majority of drugs are illegal.
The drugs have altered their brains into a drug phening machine that will go against logic to get more drugs. I've been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
PS, drugs being illegal makes them that much more fun. We used to have to sneak off into the woods and climb huge trees to get high where I grew up. Great memories.
Yeah, I guess they just can't accept that America is actually free when compared to other countries. Obviously, we're not 100% free or we wouldn't have a government, but you need a government unless you want everyday chaos. Perhaps if they don't like how this country is going right now, and feel we have no freedoms at all, they'd be better suited for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or Republic of Cuba. I'm sure after a few months they'd decide America does actually have freedoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Let them go where ever the fuck they want. They are free to do so. I think they're too lazy to move to a country where life is better, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
I'm guessing if they got off their lazy asses and started searching for this 'utopia', they would be searching for an awful long time. And when they think they've found the 100% free anarchy with some sort of government :?, they'll probably be raped and eaten by cannibals, because there's no protection. (Sorry, i said that as if it would a bad thing! lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
When I am king of the world we will all swill free beer and run around naked humping everyone we want to.
I dont disagree that the government should be smaller and crap like the Patriot Act repealed, but I dont see how an anarchy could work because it needs an ideal world scenario in which everyone gets along and that isnt the case. "Excess" that depends on what you mean - would driving a SUV be excess? Would living in a nice (but not huge) house be excess? Does eating at a all-you-can-eat buffet mean excess? Earning money and spending it as you please? Not everyone does these things, but if its supposed to be a (hypothetical) truely free society with no government/laws then who should be able to say you cant do that? It sounds contradictory to the same freedom that is supposed to be available, and with nothing in place you may be just as likely to have have your tires slashed, house burnt to the ground, or called a greedy pig for having more than someone else.
Thank you. Aside from the quote below, that "thank you" is all I'm contributing to this....thread. :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
It's from the thread that all this "arguing" should've taken place. Y'know, the link in my first post in this thread that no one bothered to look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt
Give up man. You don't know what your talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
Anarchy with law???What? THis makes no sense.
I'm not just giving my veiw on anarchy, I'm giving the intellegint version of anarchy. No one is suggesting we just get rid of laws today, right now. Why does everyone think that anarchy means the bull punk rock version? People who haven't at least read a book or something about anarchy are not going to be able to have an intelligent discussion on the subject.
You have repeatedly made the assumption that anarchy would be established against the will of the people. This completely condricts the entire idea. Anarchy is esentially people governing themselves through strong communities and family values. People making good deciscions on their own, based on morals guidelines rather than law. We have come to rely so much on laws now, that people don't have any morals. People will lie to get ahead in this country. This will basically destroy this country if we do not do something about it. You cannot trust people anymore, because if you can legally do something its ok in this country. Doesn't matter if you screw a bunch of people out of their money. I'm suggesting that we do somethings to reform the government now, before some fucked up shit happens. The economy is going to collapse sometime over the next 4 years, and we will invade Iran. These are bad things that will most likely happen because we have a faulty electoral system.(yes nitsuJ the electoral system does have something to do with freedom.)
But honestly, I don't have time right now to explain anarchy to you, and it seems like you don't want to even attempt to understand it so I don't really wanna waste my time. Stop argueing about something other than what I'm talking about. No one else has put in a major arguement for anarchy, or a sytem or theory on how anarchy would function. All other arguements for anarchy did not say how anarchy would work, they only stated problems with the current system.
read something about the Hopi Indians, or the anarchist society established in spain a while ago.
Justin and friends, please educate yourself on anarchy. At least read the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
And watch this guy's video (if you have the attention span, which I seriously doubt):
The constitution is a pretty awesome document. Too bad nobody reads it.
The sad fact is that our original "relative freedom" was based on faith in we the people. When the banking establishment started to collaborate with other interests we simply allowed it; it was our duty to prevent it. To uphold the constitution and the bill of rights requires education and will; two things that can easily be swayed in most people by using their own greed against them. Many of our current politicians are tyrants according to the original documents, yet hardly anyone has the knowledge to see this.
People just want to sit around in a pit of gluttony. Hence, the lapels always win.
Do you know what =/= means?Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
So you're telling me if the U.S. became an anarchist country it wouldn't be against my will now? Because, I for one, don't want anarchy. Yeah, sure, some people might be able to live in anarchy and be "nice," but what about the rest? Anarchy has no laws in it, you can't expect everyones going to make "good decisions." If anarchy was the cure to crime we'd have it established by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Well considering anarchy has no government, or laws, I don't see a need in having it. I don't trust people enough to make the "right decisions." If you/they have a problem with the current government you'd be better suited to go live in the Republic of Cuba, or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Posting a wikipedia article when I can find one to make my own points clear, and posting someone's interpretations of anarchy doesn't help any. If you have an anarchy, you have no government and no laws. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, people will make moral decisions on how to live in an anarchist place, but I highly doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
If anarchy was declared tomorrow, you wouldn't have someone saying "Okay guys this isn't the punk-rock version of anarchy so get along." There's going to be no laws and no government organizations to stop them, so have at it.Quote:
1. "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."
2. "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."
3. "Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy
I know anarchy is without government and law, and people expect each other to live in "peace and harmony," but do you really expect everyone in an anarchist country will do that? Really, to be totally anarchist, you can't have laws of any kind or that wouldn't be totally free. So therefore, you have people getting out of prisons looking to do whatever they please. You live in a world were evil is present, not absent (talking about the world in general, not an anarchist world).Quote:
1 a: absence of government b: a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c: a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government 2a: absence or denial of any authority or established order b: absence of order
So, in other words, you didn't watch the video or even read the article.
Well, considering the public can edit Wikipedia articles, and I found one that made my points clear that there is no law and government in an anarchist community, and I'm dial-up, no I didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
If anarchy has laws, it's not anarchy.
Is anarchy without government and law? I'd like to know what you think, because if it's not without government and law, then it's not anarchy.
Anarchy doesn't get "declared". The fact that you keep repeating this proves that you do not understand what you are talking about at all. The point of bringing up anarchy was to show that this is not a Free(anarchy) country. We should call it what it is, an oligarchy. Lets get off this topic, I don't wanna talk about anarchy with someone who hasn't tried in any way to understand it.
Lets go back to a subject that I think you understand at least a little better. The electoral process in this country is running us into the ground. If you need an example we elected bush 2 times. How do you think that this has no effect on our freedoms? The patriot act, the war, wiretapping? These are all serious infringements on our freedom. The original arguement was that our freedoms are being taken away, right now.
EDIT:Anarchy has no laws, yes we know justin. That doesn't mean you understand the concept. I'm suggesting no laws, only moral guidelines passed on by wise people.
So you expect all people in anarchy to follow "moral guidelines passed on by wise people?" I don't deny some will, but just because you're in an anarchy doesn't mean everyone will. There's no laws, people will be able to do as they please. You can have a "moral" anarchy, but the "punk-rock version" is going to coincide with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
"The electoral process in this country is running us into the ground. If you need an example we elected bush 2 times."Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Looks like we're running ourselves in the ground from your statement.
Besides having the choice of who to elect, that's a freedom as far as I'm concerned. People are still able to worship whatever they please, still a freedom. People are still able to have protests, still a freedom. People are still able to write about whatever they want, still a freedom.
You've yet to prove to me that people's freedom of religion, speech, and press have been taken away. I know America isn't totally free because I can't go out and smoke refer in front of a police station, not that I'd care to anyways. Drugs shouldn't be legalized, and if they are they should be for at least 19+.
What type of freedom do you want? Name some things you'd like to have that you can't have right now.
I want the type of freedom that the founding fathers wanted. Yes, I do want the freedom to do any drug I choose. But this isn't the main reason I want change in our current government. Freedom isn't about having things, it's about being able to express yourself and live life. Yes, you can do this to an extent in this country, I know, I realize that I have a lot of freedom in this country. I want more freedom, because we are currently losing freedoms. We are currently exchanging our freedoms for conveinience as a country.
I want to live in a democracy or a republic. A type of government where people control the government, not the other way around. We live in an oligarchy. Big business has such a big influence on peoples lives. I know, people can resist all this influence if the really want to, right. But they can't. Constant advertisement. Labels on everything. Always running from one thing to the next. No one really has time to think anymore. I do, because I avoid mainstream culture, but most people don't. Most people can't. I dare anyone in this thread to stop watching tv for a month. Most people can't do this, they are too afraid they'll miss something.
If you wanna debate on drugs we can do this but I can't debate 5 different topics in the same thread.
We elected bush because the people were tricked into thinking he would be a good president. He fucked up and made himself look like a complete idiot for his first term, and yet he won again. I think it's because people have been slowly dumbed down in this country and been made to act like children. We made an impulsive decision because we were afraid of terrorism, well I wasn't but I think most people were. This "threat" is constantly shown on tv to make people more afraid so that they will vote for anyone who is tough on terrorism. This is what I call the media having too much influence on election results.
If the electoral process is working, please explain how bush got elected twice. One time maybe, but twice? Twice? That man is either completely retarted or diabolically evil.
As for anarchy goes, it all depends on the individual people taking personal responsibility for what they do. If suddenly tomorrow it was no longer against the law to kill, rape, and steal, I don't know about you, but I would still not kill, rape, or steal. Yes, there are some people who would, these are the people who have not been taught morals. Personally, I don't live by the law, I find many of the laws absurd. I just make damn sure I don't get caught breaking any of them. The laws I break are mostly traffic, free speech and drug related. It's probably not in my best interest to divulge this, but I trust you guys ;) Basically, I live my life according to what I think is right / moral. I ask, "who is the government to decide what's right for the people?" If not politicians, but people were in charge of the government, I think we would see a lot of changes for the better.
In the end, it just comes down to convenience. People will generally do what they want to do regardless of the law. The more the government tries to crack down on stuff, the more secretive that stuff must become. People right now, (even though it is ILLEGAL) rape others, kill people, steal things etc. Making those things illegal is like a "no duh" solution. But the people who break the law would be doing that to begin with anyways. Laws just make it inconvenient to do certain things.
If everyone were taught morals, there would be no need for laws. Currently, (and obviously) not everyone was taught morals, so laws were created as a way to deter people from doing certain immoral things.
I think the idea of anarchy is fantastic. However as a species, we are not mature enough to put it into practice yet. Hopefully with the easier access to information currently, people will be able to stop all the bullshit and just get along.
I agree, but I think that anarchy could be acheived as a society within 100 years. We just need to make adjustments in the current government. If we really fixed the education system, things would change rapidly. I think this will happen within 30 years. Maybe not, it depends on what happens in the next few years.
That and legalize LSD. That would fix a lot of problems. Especially if they trained people in how to use it.
If you're so upset with it, why not move? As far as I'm concerned you're able to do whatever you please in this country, legal or illegal, just don't get caught if it's illegal. If drugs are ever legalized, it'll only be marijuana. All the other illegal drugs out there are garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
[I'll make a thread about the drug topic.]
Well, they're just too dependent on "entertainment." I could go a year and more without TV because nothing on it peaks my interest. If I watch TV it's usually on a music channel or on a football game or I'm watching a dvd, other than that my TV isn't turned on.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
I don't really see how "mainstream culture" is influencing people's lives, probably because no one I know is influenced by it around here.
Everyone is "tricked" into electing a president. Some people now believe Bush was the best president ever, more than likely. It's all a matter of opinion. They (presidents) promise to give things to the people that they can't do without the permission from Congress (I.E. lower gas prices nation wide). This is a problem I have with people bitching about the president (not just Bush, but any president) not lowering gas, it's not up to him, it's up to Congress. Granted he could suggest to Congress they drop gas prices, but unless they make that into a bill it isn't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Considering the electoral press is used to elect a president, it's obviously working. The question you need to be asking is why people are electing retards into office. You can vote for whoever you want to, if you want to vote for yourself to be president, you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
I feel the same way. Most of what's on TV is crap so I just don't watch it anymore. I'd have no problem going a year or more without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
The problem I see with this system, is that the most powerful corporations are able to sway congress to make certain decisions in their favor. Also, the people who think bush is the best president ever most likely watch too much TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
Why do we need an electoral press to elect a president? Are regular citizens unfit for that duty? It's true you can vote for whoever you want to, but if it's not the main republican or democratic candidate, your vote won't matter. But still, I'd rather throw my vote away on a qualified candidate than give it to the lesser of two evils. As silly as it may seem, I believe that one day people will get their shit together enough to make their own decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
I think the reason people are electing retards into office, is because they don't know any better. This being the result of the inability to make their own decisions combined with being told what to think from the media.
You know what people, I'm sick of reading the anarchy argument in 30 different posts just said in slightly different tones. I'm through with this thread! There is no point in arguing with people who are so set in their different ways! This thread is all about arguing with idiots who don't listen to each other, about things that will never happen! :poof:
No, please stay and argue with us endlessly in circles :PQuote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
Lol! :D
I mean.... I'm not actually here.... :eek:!
Read Plato's "republic" search it on google, and you will see the fallibility with a pure democracy. A nation needs its sovereignty, or it will fail. It was a democracy which elected a man who wiped over 6 million jews.. Ambitous leaders can manipulate the minds of hopeless people, that is why greece was in constant war until they established a republic like government.
Freedom rests on options. One of the options that gives you the most freedom is security.
Beautiful people are more free than ugly people,
rich more than poor,
powerful more than weak,
young more than old,
healthy more than sickly.
Just like that song:
"Everyone is equal,
but some are more equal than others"
And we all know now much sense songs can make... :D. This is a prime example of stupid lyrics that don't make any sense, its a complete oxymoron, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromoh
So you're saying you don't understand what those lyrics were trying to convey?Quote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
Of course i know what they are suggesting, they just don't make much sense. The artist is just trying to be ironic, they are saying that everyone thinks they are equal. But the people who blatantly are more powerful than the rest are being referred to as 'more equal' to make everyone feel easy about their lives ^^. It has a lack of true meaning though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
But if his point is given to you accurately, it has done its job and you're merely harping on the medium that was used to get that point accross.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5triker
Okay :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
Lolz! Didn't mean to start an argument :D!