Hmm, started to watch it when my spyware program started to bark. Guess I'm better off not seeing this anyway.
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Hmm, started to watch it when my spyware program started to bark. Guess I'm better off not seeing this anyway.
What does an emotional relationship have to do with the sensation of pain and discomfort? Nothing. You experience it whether you know it has a name or not. Just as a baby experiences pain, but does not have an "emotional relationship" with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Identity
Advanced and progressed as far as thinking or reasoning? Again, reasoning does not have anything to do with being able to experience pain. In fact, since humans have more advanced reasoning skills, you'd think that they would understand this difference, AND the similarities, and have more compassion for other species.Quote:
Originally Posted by Identity
I'm not going to argue with you, Identity X - truth be told, I pity you for being so shallow-minded. It's obvious you've never had a special relationship with any pet or animal and cannot grasp what everyone is trying to tell you. There's no point wasting my breath trying to make you see another point of view, because it's obvious you are not capable. :shakehead2:
I don't think IdentityX is at all shallow minded to think that. Frankly, I think it's quite the opposite - it's disregarding your "gut emotions" and rather going for something logical that makes more sense. Until we do that, I don't think we could progress that far as a civilisation.
There's never been a true reason to hold compassion for animals, not logically. So a cat dies. Big whoopie. I would have no compunctions about putting a cat in a microwave if I knew that there was a benefit I could gain from it (i.e. it wasn't a total waste of time). In the video, I'm pretty sure that there was a benefit - we now know how cats were affected by LSD. I'm not so sure about us watching it - what's the point in that? I don't exactly find it good viewing. But it's all in the name of science, frankly. I think 'ethics' can often be a heap of <strike>crap</strike> silliness, especially when it holds us back. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
If we're going to protect cats, where do we stop? Dogs, of course we're going to protect them. And I guess dolphins, since, you know, they're just as important as dogs. How about ladybirds? Can you help standing on ladybirds when you walk over the grass? Is it justified because you were just so damn careless? How about ants? Spiders, anyone, would you like to see a spider on LSD? Even though they're "icky", I'm pretty sure they feel pain too. Something tells me, though, you probably wouldn't feel the same pang as conscience as you do when a cat is on LSD. Noble thing, this conscience! Then of course there is the value of human life over pets. Like IdentityX said, I would gladly stomp on a million cute little puppies (barefoot!) if it meant I could save one human life. But on the other hand, who are any of us to put value on any life?
Just because we can talk in an intelligent dialect and we're technologically advanced, does that make us any more qualified to really decide what's "valuable", especially when our definition of valuable is just some ingrained instinct from our heads (another species could have an entirely different system of values - heck, even other societies sometimes), not to mention our definition of "achievement" and "intelligence"? We might think that fine art is intelligent and an achievement. Another species might think it's a waste of time.
Logically, we're screwed, and the only thing I currently have to go on is that in the grand scheme of things nothing really matters. The fact a cat suffered for medical science? Whatever. The fact a baby dies? What does the universe care! The fact the human race dies in 2048 from nuclear fallout? Big whoop!
And thus, if I had no emotion (i.e. let's say I'm a Vulcan) I'd probably just do nothing since nothing matters. I might kill myself since what does it matter if I live, I might not kill myself because what does it matter if I die? Yes, we mean nothing. The only thing that keeps it all together is that we are slaves to emotion at the end of the day. We can dampen the effects - I wasn't really stirred by the video of the cat, no - but I don't think even IdentityX could watch that cat roll around panicky without some twinge of guilt, or some way he wishes he can help. I know I felt it.
Well, it seems you've successfully finished this disussion then - because I'm utterly unwilling to discuss anything of any importance to someone who thinks a disscussion on the extension of moraily and ethics to animals is sufficient pressure enough to result to insults and bigotry. Shame on you. Shame on you!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns
yeah I saw that... felt pretty sorry for that cat. How much LSD did they gave it? :0
Ah well, maybe he had 'ups' in his trip too, not just downs?
Actually humans are animals, I mean why aren't we? Just because we have a language and can build stuff doesn't mean we aren't animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Identity
As Bob said its funny how they use a cat for human results instead of humans. Personally I'd like to see the scientist having those symptons, for scientific research ofcourse ;)
Yeah really! I wikied LSD (I know wiki isn't an altogether reliable source but I just wanted to see the basics), and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put their bodies through that. Here are a couple snippets that jumped out at me:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeAvO
Quote:
Physical reactions to LSD are highly variable and may include the following: uterine contractions, hyperthermia (body temperature increase), elevated blood sugar levels, dry-mouth, goose bumps, heart-rate increase, jaw clenching, nausea, perspiration, pupil-dilation, salivation, mucus production, sleeplessness, paresthesia, euphoria or dysphoria, hyperreflexia, tremors and synesthesia. Cramps and muscle tension or soreness are also commonly reported, and this may be a result of the drug's effect on soft tissues such as the uterus.[/b]
heh, sounds like fun! :shock:Quote:
An LSD trip can have long lasting or even permanent neutral, negative, and positive psychoemotional effects. LSD experiences can range from indescribably ecstatic to extraordinarily difficult; many difficult experiences (or "bad trips") result from a panicked user feeling they are going to die, are going to stay insane forever or that he or she has been permanently severed from reality and his or her ego. If the user is in a hostile or otherwise unsettling environment, or is not mentally prepared for the powerful distortions in perception and thought that the drug causes, effects are more likely to be unpleasant.[/b]
Wow Burns! :shock:
Now imagine that on a small cat that would react a lot worse with the dosage!
If I am remembering correctly, way back when, they did test unsuspecting members of the US army without their knowledge. I remember reading something about it in the paper at least 30 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeAvO
I've known many people that used LSD for recreational purposes, but imagine how it must feel to have someone slip it to you without your knowledge.
Back in the 70's, I remember being at a high school dance in which someone did just that to a guy I knew. Totally freaked the guy out. He would just be standing around and then scream, I mean a blood curdling scream and then run away. We had to stay with that guy and try to keep him from hurting himself for over two hours. It was right then that I decided I would never use a psycho active substance. really made an impression on me.
^^ wow, Seeker - I can't imagine having hallucinations and stuff like that and not understand why or how. Someone would think they were literally going insane - it would be terrifying! :shock:
I'm really glad I didn't look at that video.
Anyone who thinks it is OK to experiment on animals would do it to people, if they could get away with it.
Man, giving people drugs without their knowledge is Not cool indeed.
I mean, even a simple spacecake could Totally freak people out. LSD would just about allways make you trip bad, unless you realise it is LSD, but even then you don't know the dosage.
So, the cat must have feel fucked :)
Did the cat tell you his trip was a down? Didn't think so. Maybe his whole trip was an 'up'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neruo
LSD funny vid
hehe, "with one man climbing a tree to feed the birds "
Yeah I am thinking about taking acid too, the spasm seem like totally fun :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TweaK
However, you might be right. The cat might be so fucked up he may have thought he was flying, but in reality he looked like he was having motoric spasm, but he didn't even notice...
you know...
that was pretty disturbing...
until that guy in the soundtrack went screaming...
i lol'ed... :(
Well the one piece of important information few people have seemed to notice that we are missing is the dosage given to the cat. LSD is the most powerful psychoactive drug known to man as far as the dosage goes. A typical dosage is measured in micrograms. However, it takes an incredible amount to kill a person from it. I don't know how much exactly because there are so few documented cases of LSD death due to toxicity. Considering that it is an animal in the test I am pretty confident that the dosage was very high, many many times the normal amount associated with recreational use. But the reason people enjoy doing LSD is because of the experience in the mind. A lot of times its things you can't even properly explain to other people. I've never known a person who reacted like that cat did to LSD. LSD is a very misunderstood drug that only certain people should take. Of course that decision should be made by that person after carefully examining the information they have read. As far as the whole experimentation on animals thing goes, I'm all for it. There was one chemist/psychopharmacologist who developed and studied new psychoactive drugs but he used the old fashioned method of testing them on himself first with very very minute doses and over time increasing the dosage. His name is Dr. Alexander Shulgin if you want to read up on him or anything. He's written 2 books that I have read and its very interesting stuff. And Please people, if you have never tried the stuff then don't be so quick to assume that its so horrible. Because quite honestly, you can read all you want about it but you will never have any clue to the experience of it until you have tried it.
Oof! That was a biting comment. Good thing you backed it up with rational and objective evidence and keen debate. Oh, you orator, you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Think of the scientific progress we could make with human vivisection. I think we should start with you. That's my maths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Identity
Oy. Why can't everyone just go "Hurr, the kitty's on drugs!" and move on? Everything turns into a debate here.
what good is progress if you sacrifice a life for it?
morality and ethics are something learned by humans, definitely not something innately understood. To say for certain there are absolute rights and absolute wrongs is equally unfounded as someone spouting their opinion to the contrary...in the end... all of it is one's opinion. Please don't forget that.
Cats are inferior to people?? Am I actauly reading this!?!
Ah! No one could have said such a stupid remark, so this MUST be a dream!
Cool, lets see if I can fly!
I still fail to see how anybody can think that's a stupid / controversial remark. It just makes sense to me. You, as well as Koala-girl, seem to have very little regard for the human race if you both are to suggest that from a human point of view (not God's, not mother nature's) we equate to a cats, or any other animal for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by dodobird
As as for Moonbeam suggesting that we experiment on humans, yes people did that, they were called THE NAZIS AND THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE. And I think the whole world decided that was a BAD THING. But seriously, are you suggesting that human rights are worth violating so that animals don't have to 'suffer' at the hands of science? And as for suggesting that I be a subject, well I'll tell you where to stick that scalpel... :P
Seriously though, I don't see where the controversy lies. People should worry about nuclear war, AIDS, famine and the like that are seriously affecting the human race's wellbeing, rather than animal vivisection, that's actually improving human life.
dont harm a life just for progress
that is all We ask