"Why Do Girls Hate Me So Much?" Elliot Rodger UCSB Murders

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Yeah, you can never really pin anybody down to a diagnosis - people are all individuals, and can be wildly different from how somebody with their disorder (or what have you) are supposed to act. A shy narcissist? It seems to be completely contradictory, but I suppose it could happen, especially if there are other strong factor to consider. Plus he was young enough that if he was a narcissist it wouldn't have really taken him over yet. At high school age it's usually just starting to really assert itself (though there are definitely symptoms even from early childhood). From what I've seen (and also read), self-doubt can still be there in high school and a few years beyond.

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I think he was a full blown narcissist. He was 22 years old, and that's four years past the point where a person can be diagnosed with NPD. I just think his narcissism was a defense mechanism his subconscious created for his conscious mind. The true nature of a narcissist reveals itself in how fragile the ego of one is. They wig out much worse than others over criticism and disrespect. NPD can't be diagnosed until age 18, but I agree that the signs show up much earlier than that. Narcissists in the making were the people in school who were truly pissed and wanted to fight over the slightest appearance of disrespect, even from complete strangers who might have meant nothing at all. They guard their sensitive egos like they are guarding Fort Knox.

I'll agree with all of that, though to me 'full blown narcissism' isn't achieved yet at such a young age - it gets stronger into adulthood. But I don't think that's really how you meant it. I'm just trying to get used to the idea of a shy narcissist - but then I'm sure it's possible. Hell, I guess that would allow him to escape notice as a narc because people usually associate narcissism with overblown confidence and arrogance.

"Narcissists in the making were the people in school who were truly pissed and wanted to fight over the slightest appearance of disrespect, even from complete strangers who might have meant nothing at all. They guard their sensitive egos like they are guarding Fort Knox."

There are certain kinds of people who are like that, and it's not only culturally accepted in their communities, but in fact required in order to gain any status. In the ghetto for one, though now of course ghetto attitude is spreading out into the upper middle class suburbs as well, black white and all colors of the rainbow. Im not trying to imply it started in the ghettos (just realized it could be read that way) - in fact, in Black Rednecks and White Liberals Thomas Sowell makes the case that it's always existed among the poorest and most backwards peasant classes and that it was brought to the American south by the poor northern English and southern Scotts (think early versions of the Brit punk rockers) who settled there en masse and passed it on to the slaves, creating modern ghetto culture. Interestingly, those Britons at the time were still using an old-fashioned dialect from Middle English that included the word Y'all (not a contraction of you all as most believe) and using the sentence form "I be, you be, he be" etc - the original source of ebonics. Heh sorry, I know I'm getting way off subject, but this is fascinating stuff to me, and it does relate loosely.

But to bring it back somewhat on topic, I always suspected those cultures that promote ignorance, aggression, and touchy pride probably generate a lot of narcissism. Purportedly it's caused by trauma in childhood, like a chaotic environment that can't be escaped from or lack of parental love and affirmation. Of course, those conditions are rife in the ghetto or in a redneck community*, but I believe it's also amplified by cultural acceptance and even promotion of narcissistic traits.

* I'm using the term redneck here the way Thomas Sowell does, to refer to ignorant, arrogant, uneducated people, not simply southern people. He uses redneck to refer to people of all races/colors with that attitude. Don't take offense UM!

Yeah, I think culture does a lot to shape it. Ghetto and poor rural cultures have a lot of people who feel inadequate because of their economic standings. I think it's unfortunate, but the mentality is common in those cultures. That breeds narcissism by itself, but the pressure that comes from peers claiming that they are nothing if they don't physically challenge everybody who looks at them funny or makes a comment that seems a bit off color fuels it even further. At the other end of the economic spectrum, there are rich kids who grow up thinking that success and an image of being upstanding are the only things in life that matter and that their mission in this world is to be better than everybody else. That too gives people sensitive egos and makes them feel the need to convince themselves and others that they are extra great. They don't tend as much to resort to physical confrontation, but they will revolve their worlds around proving to you just how great they are if you ever suggest that they are anything less than great.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

* I'm using the term redneck here the way Thomas Sowell does, to refer to ignorant, arrogant, uneducated people, not simply southern people. He uses redneck to refer to people of all races/colors with that attitude. Don't take offense UM!

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Ha ha, I know it doesn't simply mean "Southerner." I used to say that word a lot because I can't stand the kind of people you described, but I ended up dropping it for the most part because it is commonly seen as a word that means "country or blue collar person," and it is taken as an insulting word. I have been called a redneck, but I don't really care because I think I have the good "redneck" qualities and not the bad ones. I have a very Southern accent, I love classic country music and Southern rock, I own a gun and am a major supporter of the Second Amendment, I have a lot of conservative views, and I love going for long rides in the country. If that makes me a redneck, I don't care. As long as I'm not stupid, ignorant, unjustifiably mean, or trashy, the word doesn't mean anything bad in my case. I still tend not to say it because it really can pointlessly offend some people who don't deserve to be offended.

Sowell talks extensively about this whole phenomenon - very enlightening. It's not as clear cut as you made it sound - it's not entirely the poverty that makes them ill tempered etc, but largely it works the other way around and always has. The bad attitude of the culture keeps it dirt poor and backwards. But of course then the reverse happens too - the poverty breeds further bad temperament. Oh,and incidentally, you may or may not know this, but the term redneck has nothing to do with sunburn. The adherents of a British political party way back when used to wear red scarves to identify themselves. Ok, have I derailed the thread sufficiently yet? :chuckle:

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Sowell talks extensively about this whole phenomenon - very enlightening. Oh,and incidentally, you may or may not know this, but the term redneck has nothing to do with sunburn. The adherents of a British political party way back when used to wear red scarves to identify themselves. Ok, have I derailed the thread sufficiently yet? :chuckle:

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Wow, I learned something very different when I took Mississippi history in junior high. My teacher and textbook taught us that the term originated in Mississippi and referred to ignorant farmers who got a lot of sun and literally had red necks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

Yeah, modern education spreads a lot of bullshit. Lol and yeah, even way back when we were educated it was already modern education, well to some extent.

I posted a Wikipedia article the same minute you posted. I also discussed the term "redneck" the same minute you posted something a few posts back.

Hmmm… it wasn't this article, was it? That refers to the usage of redneck I'm talking about.

D'oh ok, I see what you mean! You posted the links up above there. Thought you meant you were posting to a wiki article at the same time you were posting here derp…

And yeah, you're far too educated and even tempered to be a true redneck!

Yes, but the original usage of the term in Scotland had an entirely different meaning. The idea that the existence of Scottish immigrants in the Southern U.S. led to the use of the term in the U.S. and that it later took on the modern meaning seems to be a speculation but possibly true. The "poor farmer" meaning became common later, and it was a reference to sun burned necks. Whether there is a connection between the two meanings seems kind of fuzzy.

Yeah, agreed. Though I could see how both could be true - the descendants of the original rednecks, now bent over in their fields under the blazing sun… new meaning for an old term that probably nobody even remembered what it used to mean anymore.

Words and phrases have various etymologies that become blurred at different points of history... E.g. "cracker"