Thread: About congress's last debacle

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Interesting. Do you have a source for that?

I've got one that says otherwise:

No you don't, it says exactly the same thing that I just explained. I don't know what your point is.

And it wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter). :/

There are so many real, genuine, important problems with US politics, I don't know why people are spending their time on one which is basically fabricated and not very exciting.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Lul yeah cause pizza is a fruit.

Superb logical fallacies once again.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Congress should just pass a law saying that deficit is a surplus.

Yes yes... a spending "surplus". I like it. Fits the whole "PC" nature of society.

Forget pizzas, the genuinely concerning ones are the ones you don't even notice. You don't have a Ministry of Love yet but the Ministry of Defence is a fine substitute.

Originally Posted by Xei

Forget pizzas, the genuinely concerning ones are the ones you don't even notice. You don't have a Ministry of Love yet but the Ministry of Defence is a fine substitute.

I don't know... but I'm pretty sure I notice the terrible things my government does. Torture, murder, make money out of thin air to pay for more wars... yup, it's all there!

I wish there was some sort of... umm, a document! A document that could have prevented all of this stuff.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I don't know... but I'm pretty sure I notice the terrible things my government does.

I was referring to the fluidity of words specifically however.

Originally Posted by Xei

It is a colloquial term with no scientific basis;

Originally Posted by Oxford Dictionary

Scientifically speaking, a tomato is definitely a fruit

Originally Posted by Xei

...it says exactly the same thing that I just explained.

Lolwut?

Ok. We'll just pretend that your ignoring the rest of my post means I really never posted it, and move on...

Originally Posted by Xei

And it wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter). :/

Yeah. Of course. So if I try to trojan something in as 'healthy' because it gives someone their 'recommended serving of dairy' - though it also gives them scores of other shit that would not be an issue if that person was actually just getting that serving of dairy instead of all the other shit that's served with it - that's cool? Sort of an 'Ice Cream sundaes everyday = healthy because you're getting dairy sort of thing, yeah?

Originally Posted by Xei

There are so many real, genuine, important problems with US politics, I don't know why people are spending their time on one which is basically fabricated and not very exciting.

There are so many real, genuine, important problems with the world, I don't know why you're spending your time replying to conversations about something that is allegedly fabricated and not very exciting.

See how easy that is?

Funny thing is: across the pond, the usual schtick is about the American obesity problem. And now, suddenly (presumably to take attention off of the fact that what you said is at odds with the quotation I posted), something that takes issue with the topic is not worth discussion. Interesting how that works.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Funny thing is: across the pond, the usual schtick is about the American obesity problem. And now, suddenly (presumably to take attention off of the fact that what you said is at odds with the quotation I posted), something that takes issue with the topic is not worth discussion. Interesting how that works.

I don't really see why the problem is with pizza. I fucking love pizza and I'm skinny. The problem should be with schools buying cheap shitty frozen foods. On top of this most schools don't follow these guidelines anyways(I think that was from blackeagle's link).

The problem is that schools are too lazy to come up with healthy food choices so they just add pizza to the healthy list. Glad to know you're skinny, not every kid who eats pizza all day is going to be skinny. Our entire society has gone the way of efficiency over quality, especially in our food. We are losing this front.

Originally Posted by Congress

Pizza is a vegetable.

Well, somebody had to do it.

Aside, this isn't necessarily the first time this has happened. (Ketchup, apparently, fills the "vegetable" role quite well, according to Congress fifty years ago.) Gotta admit, though. It is... somewhat silly, and it probably won't do wonders for the nutritional system.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

I don't really see why the problem is with pizza. I fucking love pizza and I'm skinny. The problem should be with schools buying cheap shitty frozen foods. On top of this most schools don't follow these guidelines anyways(I think that was from blackeagle's link).

The way I see it (and this is just my personal perspective, here), the problem is much less the pizza. Hell, I love pizza. I'm not exactly a small guy, but I don't think there is any 'inherent evil' in pizza. The problem is the frozen pizza that is served on top of all of the other unhealthy crap in schools. Not sure how many of you - who are 'wtfever' about the issue - actually have kids, but it's actually a pretty important issue, because of the obesity epidemic in the country. These are all contributing factors. The downside to this is that people try to look at it as an issue of "well pizza isn't the problem." It's a part of the problem, and to discuss the problem, the different parts of the problem has to be addressed as the contributing factors that they are.

The issue, for me, is the hypocrisy. It makes it seem like they are just trying what they can to make Big Food (corporations) happy, by changing the verbiage so that 'hey, we can still make the Processed Pizza corps happy by changing the terminology so that their "tomato paste" counts as a vegetable, instead of offering more healthy alternatives to kids." People they don't have kids often try to say "well, hey, they are your kids. You should be the ones to deligate what they do or don't eat. Those of us with kids (or those of us with a bit of perspective) can understand that that is not usually as easy as it sounds.

For me, the issue is a lot like the issue with cigarettes. On one hand, our government talks about looking out for our best interests. We have things that are illegal 'because of the best interest of the people', but then we have this 'other side of the coin', that pushes for things that are unhealthy, simply because they sell. That's my problem. It's all the double-talk. It's the 'instead of introducing healthier alternatives, we are going to change the rules so that our not-necessarily-healthy menu can technically be counted as something else, to keep it on the menu', because it's so cost-efficient' philosophy.

"Oh yeah, cigarettes are deadly, but we are going to demonize the substances that we would make much less money on, and keep pumping cigarettes to the public, because people buy them like candy."

And, yes, the two may be two technically different issues, but I believe they are related. I'm not trying to make pizza out to be a bad guy. What I'm taking issue with all of the crap that's peddled to our nation everyday. It's always 'if it tastes good, eat it. If it feels good, do it", with this practical misdirection away from what is healthier, and a push toward what makes more money. This is an underlying theme in pretty much everything that's wrong with our country, and I tend to view things that seem to advocate this philosophy with a bit more scrutiny than others. Am I wrong to?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Lolwut?

Are you trolling? My post clearly says that vegetable is not a scientific term (in the bit you removed from the quote, good work). This is not contradicted by 'fruit' being a scientific term, is it?

Ok. We'll just pretend that your ignoring the rest of my post means I really never posted it, and move on...

What rest of the post? The only other thing you did was ask for a source, but you already did that for me. Derp.

Yeah. Of course. So if I try to trojan something in as 'healthy' because it gives someone their 'recommended serving of dairy' - though it also gives them scores of other shit that would not be an issue if that person was actually just getting that serving of dairy instead of all the other shit that's served with it - that's cool? Sort of an 'Ice Cream sundaes everyday = healthy because you're getting dairy sort of thing, yeah?

Facepalm number three. Actually read my post that you quoted and try again.

There are so many real, genuine, important problems with the world, I don't know why you're spending your time replying to conversations about something that is allegedly fabricated and not very exciting.

Telling to people to do something worthwhile isn't worthwhile? Okay whatever.

(presumably to take attention off of the fact that what you said is at odds with the quotation I posted),

You've set a new facepalm record.

something that takes issue with the topic is not worth discussion. Interesting how that works.

It's not worthy of discussion because the bill doesn't say that a vegetable is a pizza. It doesn't even use the word 'vegetable' or 'pizza'. If you read what they actually passed it is pretty sane. And like you say, I'd be one of the first people to laugh at an American given the chance. In fact I did, after ninja's first post, but before Black Eagle's where he rectified it. I sure am being irrational in here, aren't I?

Originally Posted by Xei

Are you trolling?

*chucklesnort*

I'm sorry, but to see you ask anyone that question, with any sort of sincerity, is a bit funny.

Originally Posted by Xei

My post clearly says that vegetable is not a scientific term (in the bit you removed from the quote, good work). This is not contradicted by 'fruit' being a scientific term, is it?

Actually, I was speaking more to the point that a tomato being scientifically, botanically, a fruit, implies that 'vegetables' being a colloquial term is really only reasonable when it comes to culinary circles, since 'tomato' already has a scientific classification. My confusion is kind of based on the question of: If nutrition is based on biochemistry, which is fairly scientifically constant, then why go through all this trouble to call it something that isn't scientifically accurate? To be fair, though, I understand your point about what you said. I simply misinterpreted. I only removed it from the quote because I thought the last part was the most relevant. My mistake. In my defense, though, it would have been idiotic for me to omit it and then try to make a point out of it, as if you'd never posted it, on purpose, and that is not the case. I believe my point still stands, though.

Originally Posted by Xei

What rest of the post? The only other thing you did was ask for a source, but you already did that for me. Derp.

I gave a brief summary of the way I interpreted the article. I stated that the article labels tomato as a fruit, technically, but that the word 'vegetable' was often used for some fruits colloquially in cooking. What you said, specifically, was that the word 'vegetable' has no scientific basis to it, whatsoever (something that I was able to corroborate from the Vegetable wiki, afterward). Now. Please point me to the section of the article that I posted, where it says that the word 'vegetable' has no scientific basis to it. Though it can be argued that it's implied, it is absolutely not stated in the article. Herp Derp.

Originally Posted by Xei

Facepalm number three. Actually read my post that you quoted and try again.

Yeah. I did. And in case you missed it, that is the issue.

To quote the Huffington Post's article about it:

But the government clearly does not control the food Americans eat. Corporations do. In this case ConAgra and Schwan are quite literally determining what the vast majority of our school children will be fed in school cafeterias: A veritable chemical concoction made to look like pizza. These are the ingredients for the "traditional 4x6 school pizza" made by ConAgra:


CRUST: (Enriched wheat flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, reduced iron, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, soybean oil, dextrose, baking powder (sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum sulfate, cornstarch, monocalcium phosphate, calcium sulfate), yeasts (yeast, starch, sorbitan monostearate, ascorbic acid), salt, dough conditioners (wheat flour, salt, soy oil, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid, fungal enzyme), wheat gluten, soy flour).

SAUCE: (water, tomato paste (31 percent NTSS), pizza seasoning (salt, sugar, spices, dehydrated onion, guar and xanthan gum, garlic powder, potassium sorbate, citric acid, tricalcium phophate and soybean oil (prevent caking)), modified food starch). SHREDDED MOZZARELLA

CHEESE: (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes). SHREDDED MOZZARELLA

CHEESE SUBSTITUTE: (Water, oil (soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil with citric acid), casein, milk protein concentrate, modified food starch, contains 2 percent or less of the following: sodium aluminum phosphate, salt, lactic acid, mozzarella cheese type flavor (cheese (milk, culture, rennet, salt), milk solids, disodium phosphate), disodium phosphate, sorbic acid, nutrient blend (magnesium oxide, zinc oxide, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin and vitamin B-12), vitamin A palmitate).

It's not even pizza, much less a vegetable. (And if you think that's bad take a look at the ingredients for the "Pepperoni, Reduced Fat Pizza").

You're proposing that all of these additives and preservatives are an integral part of a healthy diet for children? Or are they just processed crap to make the 'pizza' cheaper and have a longer shelf-life? If the former, then I don't really know what you figure to be 'unhealthy.' If the latter, then I believe the issue is definitely worth discussing.

Originally Posted by Xei

Telling to people to do something worthwhile isn't worthwhile? Okay whatever.

Because trying to be more conscious about what cost-cutting methods our impoverished educational system is using to help feed our children isn't worthwhile. Right?

And there goes your usual arrogance again. If you're implying that every single thing you do, and conversation you have, is worthwhile, then you are both egotistical and delusional. If you concede to the fact that not everything you engage in is objectively 'worthwhile', then you are simply a hypocrite. Either way, your rhetorical question is invalid.

Also, I think this quote from the New York Times makes it clear that discussion on the issue is very worthwhile:

Originally Posted by New York Times

A third of American children are obese or overweight, according to the government, and roughly 40 percent of the calories they eat are consumed in the school lunch period. Nutrition experts say if the nation wants to make progress on the obesity crisis among children, what they eat at lunchtime has to be addressed.

But of course, you don't have kids. So, no. Discussing this wouldn't really be all that worthwhile to you, now would it? You should go do something worthwhile, instead.

Originally Posted by Xei

You've set a new facepalm record.

A bit of a dubious accolade, coming from you, but thanks.

Originally Posted by Xei

It's not worthy of discussion because the bill doesn't say that a vegetable is a pizza. It doesn't even use the word 'vegetable' or 'pizza'. If you read what they actually passed it is pretty sane.

As I've already stated, the issue is not with the words 'pizza' or 'vegetable'. People say it like that because it's catchy and alarmist and attention-grabbing. It is not literal. The issue is with whether or not the processed crap our kids eat everyday is healthy. These fake pizzas have always been a point of contention, and moves like this make it look like loopholes are being exploited, in order to misinform people into thinking that something - that really isn't all that healthy - is healthier than it actually is. Just like the Washington Post column, you are attacking the rhetoric, and ignoring the actual issue. Bad Xei!

Originally Posted by Xei

And like you say, I'd be one of the first people to laugh at an American given the chance. In fact I did, after ninja's first post, but before Black Eagle's where he rectified it. I sure am being irrational in here, aren't I?

By 'rectified it', do you mean 'posted the same Washington Post column that [I] later did (having not seen his post at the time)', which I explained - uncontested, as of yet - as being a bit of a strawman? Also, I'm kind of confused as to whether your first post was making fun of Ninja, or Congress. When you're trying to be insulting, it doesn't help to be so vague. But yes, to answer your question, hostility towards Americans, simply because they are American (as with any other nation) is irrational. It's also like wearing a 'Kiss me, I'm ignorant' sticker on your forehead.

But don't let deter you, of course.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

You're proposing that all of these additives and preservatives are an integral part of a healthy diet for children? Or are they just processed crap to make the 'pizza' cheaper and have a longer shelf-life? If the former, then I don't really know what you figure to be 'unhealthy.' If the latter, then I believe the issue is definitely worth discussing.

You already said this and I told you to read the post again. I don't think you did. Here, I'll even copypaste:

"[A tomato being a fruit as opposed to a vegetable] wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter)."

How are you disagreeing with me?

Because trying to be more conscious about what cost-cutting methods our impoverished educational system is using to help feed our children isn't worthwhile. Right?

And there goes your usual arrogance again. If you're implying that every single thing you do, and conversation you have, is worthwhile, then you are both egotistical and delusional. If you concede to the fact that not everything you engage in is objectively 'worthwhile', then you are simply a hypocrite. Either way, your rhetorical question is invalid.

Also, I think this quote from the New York Times makes it clear that discussion on the issue is very worthwhile:

But of course, you don't have kids. So, no. Discussing this wouldn't really be all that worthwhile to you, now would it? You should go do something worthwhile, instead.

As I've already stated, the issue is not with the words 'pizza' or 'vegetable'. People say it like that because it's catchy and alarmist and attention-grabbing. It is not literal. The issue is with whether or not the processed crap our kids eat everyday is healthy. These fake pizzas have always been a point of contention, and moves like this make it look like loopholes are being exploited, in order to misinform people into thinking that something - that really isn't all that healthy - is healthier than it actually is. Just like the Washington Post column, you are attacking the rhetoric, and ignoring the actual issue. Bad Xei!

I know the issue isn't literal. But the only posts I've made were responding to people who were taking it literally, which they were; see for instance the post at the top of this page.

When you're trying to be insulting, it doesn't help to be so vague. But yes, to answer your question, hostility towards Americans, simply because they are American (as with any other nation) is irrational. It's also like wearing a 'Kiss me, I'm ignorant' sticker on your forehead.

- You say that this resembles 'everything that is wrong with our country'.
- I agree with you.
- You call me anti-American for agreeing.

Ughh... okay.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

The problem is that schools are too lazy to come up with healthy food choices so they just add pizza to the healthy list. Glad to know you're skinny, not every kid who eats pizza all day is going to be skinny. Our entire society has gone the way of efficiency over quality, especially in our food. We are losing this front.

I don't think schools are too lazy; public schools CAN'T AFFORD healthy foods. My school was pushing healthier choices but even with government subsidies public schools simply cannot afford healthier options for students, or else the students have to pay (which is difficult for a great number of families, especially in the schools that NEED healthy options.) It's not laziness.

Originally Posted by Xei

You already said this and I told you to read the post again. I don't think you did. Here, I'll even copypaste:

"[A tomato being a fruit as opposed to a vegetable] wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter)."

How are you disagreeing with me?

Did you see that? Did you see what just happened, right there? If you blinked, you might have missed it.

You didn't 'copy/paste' your post. You copy/pasted most of your post, and then you added additional context, for understanding, in brackets, which was absent from your first post. David Copperfield would be proud.

All joking aside, though, I now better understand what you mean, and I'll acknowledge that you are more addressing the idea of 'who cares if they call it a vegetable or a fruit?' (and I agree with you on that). I never said that they would be adverse to calling it a fruit, but it's really irrelevant. I am speaking to the more important point, here, which is 'why are they using these loopholes to disguise it as something healthy (I don't care if they call tomatoes a fruit or vegetable), when it isn't?' The shit they put in these 'pizza pucks' (like much of the cafeteria food in our schools) can barely pass for fruits or vegetables. The way it is being handled makes it pretty apparent that they are manipulating vagaries in terminology, for the benefit of the Big Food corporations, instead of for that of our children. Of course, if that is not the case, I would absolutely love some facts to the contrary. As of yet, though, we have none.

So when you come in, guns blazing, aiming to smart-ass your way into the discussion (chomping at the bit to mock someone, somewhere, whenever possible), I can't help but want to you for it, because the issue isn't even about whether they are calling it a fruit or a vegetable. The issue is that it seems they are trying to say: "Hey, look! This 'pizza' is healthy, because it's got a scoop of fruit/vegetables (take your pick) on top of all the other bullshit that we put into it!" It's like you are ignoring the actual issue that people are trying to make (though most are making it poorly. I can agree with you there, too), and just locking onto any piece of it that you can exploit and turn into a "God, you're so stupid" type of response.

Originally Posted by Xei

- You say that this resembles 'everything that is wrong with our country'.
- I agree with you.
- You call me anti-American for agreeing.

When I say that something is 'everything that's wrong with our country', it does not mean that 'every American is wrong, for being a part of that society'. We have the right to disagree with the policy-makers of our nation, and many of us do. So being hostile towards an American, just because they are American (and not because they are an American lawmaker who backs a law that you disagree with) is, like I said, both irrational and ignorant.

For being a mathematician, your inability (or refusal) to grasp this simple logic kind of confuses me.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I don't think schools are too lazy; public schools CAN'T AFFORD healthy foods. My school was pushing healthier choices but even with government subsidies public schools simply cannot afford healthier options for students, or else the students have to pay (which is difficult for a great number of families, especially in the schools that NEED healthy options.) It's not laziness.

Agreed. I don't blame the schools. I blame the lack of funding. The truth is that our government spends all its money on things that are SO much more unimportant than our educational system - not just the food, but the quality of the schools and materials, themselves - in the regions that really need it. It's a shame, really.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Agreed. I don't blame the schools. I blame the lack of funding. The truth is that our government spends all its money on things that are SO much more unimportant than our educational system - not just the food, but the quality of the schools and materials, themselves - in the regions that really need it. It's a shame, really.

*See entire US Budget: War on Drugs, War in Iraq, War in Afghanistan, Wars in Libya/Yemen (probably Syria, too.) Also see unsustainable Social Security program.

The education budget is only about 45 billion compared to the nearly 1 trillion spent on our wars. We pay much more to kill people than to educate our children.

That says it all and sums it up in an eloquent nutshell.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

When I say that something is 'everything that's wrong with our country', it does not mean that 'every American is wrong, for being a part of that society'. We have the right to disagree with the policy-makers of our nation, and many of us do. So being hostile towards an American, just because they are American (and not because they are an American lawmaker who backs a law that you disagree with) is, like I said, both irrational and ignorant.

Yet again this is what I meant. When you say 'this is what is wrong with America', you don't mean every American. When I say 'this makes me laugh at Americans', I don't mean every American. When people laugh at how fat Americans are, they aren't laughing at Natalie Portman.

For being a mathematician, your inability (or refusal) to grasp this simple logic kind of confuses me.

Hopefully you get it now.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

The education budget is only about 45 billion compared to the nearly 1 trillion spent on our wars. We pay much more to kill people than to educate our children.

Well 1 trillion on the wars would be better compared to a budget of 100 billion (inb4 Omnis calls me a baby slaughterer).

Though your entire DoD budget is around 700 billion. Jesus Christ you guys... what the fuck are you playing at??

Originally Posted by Xei

Hopefully you get it now.

I do, now that you've actually made yourself a little more clear. Guess that just goes back to what I was saying about how vagary doesn't help, when you're trying to be insulting. Even though using the word 'again' makes it seem like you were actually being so clear in your first post - which you weren't - I do thank you for the clarification.

(And, to be clear, the usual M.O. for racists, nationalists and the generally prejudice is to do exactly what I said you seemed to be doing in the last post, so even your subsequent explanation is not all that universally true. Quite often, when people call someone - that they can't see - a 'fat American', they ARE talking about Natalie Portman, if they don't know that that person is Natlie Portman, just in the same vein that someone who doesn't know me calls me a 'no-class nigger', because I'm black, actually means that, even though they would be wrong to label me as such.)

But I do get what you're trying to say, so we can leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Xei

Though your entire DoD budget is around 700 billion. Jesus Christ you guys... what the fuck are you playing at??

Gary Johnson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < THIS GUY wants to cut ^^^ That budget by 43% if he's elected, on YEAR ONE. (He balanced the budget when he was governor of New Mexico, so it's not just a campaign promise... vetoed 750 bills that increased spending... AND he got re-elected.) Believe it or not, I'm supporting and campaigning for him. (Also he thinks pot should be legal, as well as gay marriage.)

And that DoD budget doesn't even count our foreign wars! (^That guy also wants to end all of those.) There's another few hundred million a year giving us that grand total of 1 trillion... it's really pretty scary, since that's around half of our total federal income... Basically, unless we get someone to deal with our budget seriously, we're going to end up like Greece... except instead of wasting money on a retirement age of 50... we're wasting it on wars and weapons.

I think I've seen Gary Johnson on Youtube and he seemed great, although I think I recall him saying something concerning about something important.

I never realised your education to military ratio is so ridiculously out of line. I mean, it's literally beyond all reason, less than a tenth! On this side of the pond education takes about double the money of defence, so that's a difference of a factor of more than 20. It's unbelievable that the American population has been talked into it.

We've only been bitching about it for 30 plus years. Talked into it my ass.

We have news station that runs nothing but distractions on the "liberal media" and regurgitates party propaganda on fox and the conservative media. Fox News has been teaching us that the rich are not rich but job creators, that the poor are not unfortunate but lazy, that the liberals are not trying to improve society but take away your guns and indoctrinate your kids into a homosex commie club and that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11. You can't blame Americans for the way Americans see the world.

Originally Posted by Xei

I think I've seen Gary Johnson on Youtube and he seemed great, although I think I recall him saying something concerning about something important.

I never realised your education to military ratio is so ridiculously out of line. I mean, it's literally beyond all reason, less than a tenth! On this side of the pond education takes about double the money of defence, so that's a difference of a factor of more than 20. It's unbelievable that the American population has been talked into it.

I only disagree with Johnson on Israel, he said we should continue to foster a friendship... but I'm not sure if that means continuing to give them money and weapons... But everything else, he's socially liberal and fiscally conservative... (Campaign slogan is "Live Free", very fitting.) In 2016 if he runs again (he won't win this year unless he's picked up by the GOP nominee as a Vice Presidential running mate), he's going to get most, if not all, of Ron Paul's supporters, I see him as the libertarian torch-bearer.

And I don't even want to talk about the state of our education system. We weren't talked into it, we elected the war hawks in Congress who decide our fucking budget. The two-party system needs to go.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Talked into it my ass.

We have news station that runs nothing but distractions on the "liberal media" and regurgitates party propaganda on fox and the conservative media. Fox News has been teaching us that the rich are not rich but job creators, that the poor are not unfortunate but lazy, that the liberals are not trying to improve society but take away your guns and indoctrinate your kids into a homosex commie club and that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11. You can't blame Americans for the way Americans see the world.

What you just did is enumerate various things that Americans have been talked into. Exactly the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Not entirely sure how you did this. -_-