Thread: The Dangers of Anti-Depressant Drugs. Big Pharma

Originally Posted by khh

What is so sad is that stuff like this may stop people who really need it from seeking help.

I agree. If u are experiencing problems. Talk with ur family. Or if neccesary, talk with a therapist.

Originally Posted by khh

No, anti-depressants are much more subtle. Their effects build up slowly over weeks, and if they're working correctly, they should just make you normal again. Which is why they have absolutely no street value.

What is normal? And i used to sell ritalin on the streets.. I believe crazy people crush it and then snort it.

Originally Posted by khh

You don't get that psychologically dependant on anti-depressants, because you can't feel their immediate effects. You do however get physically dependant, because your brain chemistry gets used to the help. But quitting does not leave you back at baseline. Studies show that if your depression is successfully treated with drugs, you are much less likely to have a relapse than if you weren't treated at all. (Not surprisingly drugs+therapy gives the best odds)

I made the assumption that, drugs do nothing for the long-term situation. And therapy does. Or meditation and breathing excersice. Self-therapy. Is it not possible that the drugs have nothing to do with it. Except keep you high while you go to therapy? It's the therapy that gives the lasting results imo.

Originally Posted by khh

I would like to see more studies on the effectiveness of various psychedelics in treating psychological problems, but unfortunately that's unlikely to happen any time soon, with the current mindset.

Google is ur friends. Erowid is okay but there are better sites. There are litterally thousands of studies on this. Unfortunately, only a few are respected by science.

Originally Posted by khh

If it's something that makes it really hard for people to function in society, if it's something that makes their lives worse... isn't that something we should wish to cure? Sure, some people might have something that's technically a disorder and be fine with it, or even love it. Well, good for them. No need for anyone else to butt in. But when it's a problem, people should be helped.

What i'm saying is that. In my point of view. And many others who are diagnosed with mental disorders. See it as natural evolution.(to use the generalized term my ex-psychotic friend gave me) It is the environment that treats it as a problem. But then again, depression is always negative. And is always a problem. But i don't see how depression can be anything but purely psychological. (not saying ur psychological state has no effect on brain chemistry tho. or that current situations have nothing to do with depression)

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I agree. If u are experiencing problems. Talk with ur family. Or if neccesary, talk with a therapist.

Or talk to your doctor, and he or she can help find out what would be best for you.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

What is normal? And i used to sell ritalin on the streets.. I believe crazy people crush it and then snort it.

Normal is not depressed. Ritalin is used to treat ADHD, not depression.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I made the assumption that, drugs do nothing for the long-term situation. And therapy does. Or meditation and breathing excersice. Self-therapy. Is it not possible that the drugs have nothing to do with it. Except keep you high while you go to therapy? It's the therapy that gives the lasting results imo.

If anti-depressants did nothing, a study should show that while on drugs the depression should last as long as on a placebo, and that the chance of relapse would be the same. What they do show is improvement on both accounts. That is without therapy of any kind.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Google is ur friends. Erowid is okay but there are better sites. There are litterally thousands of studies on this. Unfortunately, only a few are respected by science.

I meant proper scientific experiments. In order for psychedelics to be recognized as treatment, it would have to be proven effective and safe in the same way other medicine has to. Since there's no money in it for corporations (you can't patent it), they don't research it. And the government won't fund the research.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

What i'm saying is that. In my point of view. And many others who are diagnosed with mental disorders. See it as natural evolution.(to use the generalized term my ex-psychotic friend gave me) It is the environment that treats it as a problem. But then again, depression is always negative. And is always a problem. But i don't see how depression can be anything but purely psychological.

There are many disorders which also cause pain. Anxiety disorders obviously cause anxiety. Personality disorders can cause loneliness and isolation. The point is, for many people it is a problem. And if it's a problem, we should try to help.

Originally Posted by khh

No, just read about it.

Yeah, that's what I thought. You know nothing.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

I actually heard Ketamine is starting to kick all other forms of anti-depressant medication in the ass.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I actually heard Ketamine is starting to kick all other forms of anti-depressant medication in the ass.

So far all we know is that it has an immediate positive effect on mood (if you can get over the fact that you're on a dissociative...). Guess what, so does methamphetamine. What matters more is the long term, of which we know nothing.

And this needs to be said: if you're looking for a pill to make you feel good, then your problems will not be solved by any pill.

Originally Posted by cmind

So far all we know is that it has an immediate positive effect on mood (if you can get over the fact that you're on a dissociative...). Guess what, so does methamphetamine. What matters more is the long term, of which we know nothing.

And this needs to be said: if you're looking for a pill to make you feel good, then your problems will not be solved by any pill.

Knowledge knowledge every where.

Firstly, meth introduces temporary stimulation into your nervous system which subsides leaving you not only with the depression you had but a new slump from the drug withdrawal. It doesn't even make you happy so much as just stimulated enabling you to temporarily ignore your problems.

Ketamine, on the other hand, manages to set your perspective on the right level so even when you come back your issues don't seem as serious or permanent. The only real way to combat depression is to confront the issues causing depression, of course. But the relationship you're drawing between the two narcotics is completely invalid. One enables you to ignore your problems, the other gives you tools to face them.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Knowledge knowledge every where.

Firstly, meth introduces temporary stimulation into your nervous system which subsides leaving you not only with the depression you had but a new slump from the drug withdrawal. It doesn't even make you happy so much as just stimulated enabling you to temporarily ignore your problems.

Ketamine, on the other hand, manages to set your perspective on the right level so even when you come back your issues don't seem as serious or permanent. The only real way to combat depression is to confront the issues causing depression, of course. But the relationship you're drawing between the two narcotics is completely invalid. One enables you to ignore your problems, the other gives you tools to face them.

You could be right, but I'm not going to take your word for it. I mean, people were saying exactly the same kinds of talking points for SSRIs until very recently.

I don't know what meds some of y'all took and under what conditions, but my meds have NEVER made me happy or high. They stabilize my anxiety so I don't fall asleep while having a normal conversation or driving. They make it so I can actually function without being doubled over and immobilized from pain when I have my period.
Some meds turned me into a "zombie". Those meds didn't work so we found something that did.
Provigil helps you function instead of sleeping all day every day, despite your mood or overall health (it's primarily used for narcolepsy but is also useful for delayed sleep syndrome and shift workers as well as anxiety). But I never got "high" off of it unless I was abusing it. And then I wasn't high, I just had more ability to skip sleep for longer.

The goal of meds is to help people function. When used in combination with the care of a qualified therapist, much can be done to improve a persons overall quality of life.

My p-doc discourages herbs and vitamins because he says they're not tested as rigorously and the ingredients aren't measured as accurately as medication. He says the amount of (?) herb can differ from pill to pill so it's hard to get consistent results. He says it's better to get the vitamins and minerals etc from the natural source.
I understand what he's saying, but I still take Green Tea, b12, d3 and a weight loss combo that has apple cider and stuff in it to help prevent gallbladder attacks. I have so many stomach/digestive issues, it's hard for me to get benefit from natural sources, so I do what I can with what's available.

I would like to see more studies done with natural sources.

Originally Posted by cmind

You could be right, but I'm not going to take your word for it. I mean, people were saying exactly the same kinds of talking points for SSRIs until very recently.

You shouldn't. At the end of the day, with anything, there's a fine line between therapy and dependency.

Another interesting tool to help people with post-traumatic stress disorder and other psychological trauma is neural feedback, hooking someone up to an EEG machine and letting them navigate through their own mind.

What is qEEG / Brain Mapping? | qEEGsupport.com

It seems like a lot of people who are are against anti-depressants have never taken it themselves and have no idea what they're talking about (especially how it feels to be on it). I had moderate depression and anxiety, and I was miserable. Hardly anything made me happy anymore and daily life always had a rough edge to it, like being dragged across asphalt or gravel with no protection for your skin, as you bleed and crumble away. Lexapro provided the protection. It took slow to finally start working, but eventually I got better. Now I feel like a normal person again, not drugged out or happy all the time, but normal, healthy, and depression never crosses my mind when it used to all the time before the drugs.

That's why people who say crap like this feel like a slap in the face to my health, as if they want people to just go on nothing, no protection, and suffer on their own in the meager hopes that exercise or meditation will do a god damned thing. Because trust me, it doesn't. I exercised on an elliptical every single day in the hopes that I'd feel better, before Lexapro, but I noticed no change. Now I know how my mom feels when she supports medication and bitterly hates people like my dad, who think natural alternatives are the best, and she suffered needlessly in pain and fear for years, also feeling guilty about it as if it was a character weakness and not a real biological condition.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

It seems like a lot of people who are are against anti-depressants have never taken it themselves and have no idea what they're talking about (especially how it feels to be on it).

Stopped reading right there. On the contrary, I feel the way I do about anti-depressants because I was subjected to them. Before taking them, I did believe they could improve my life. After taking them, I know better.

Originally Posted by cmind

Stopped reading right there. On the contrary, I feel the way I do about anti-depressants because I was subjected to them. Before taking them, I did believe they could improve my life. After taking them, I know better.

Just because they didn't do anything for you, doesn't mean that they don't help anyone. I'd also like to quote you on something you said earlier:

Originally Posted by cmind

Yeah well I started the same way you did, with my GP putting me on several different drugs, but my process has culminated in two things: I am now off all medications, and I now feel better than I ever have. I guess I didn't need the drugs after all. Oops.

If you feel better than you ever have after you were on (and then off) medication, how can you know for sure they didn't help?

Originally Posted by khh

Just because they didn't do anything for you, doesn't mean that they don't help anyone. I'd also like to quote you on something you said earlier:

I didn't say they didn't work as intended. They worked exactly as intended. They are intended to make you into a dissociated drug zombie that doesn't care about anything.

Originally Posted by khh

If you feel better than you ever have after you were on (and then off) medication, how can you know for sure they didn't help?

More like scared straight.

If an alcoholic hits rock bottom and that experience drives them to quit the alcohol, and in doing so, make their life better as they're forced to deal with their problems, would you say that the alcohol was a good thing for them? Pretty twisted logic, if you ask me.

I agree that there are dangers to pharmaceutical anti-depressants. However, sometimes the benefits of the anti-depressant drugs outweigh the negatives. Currently speaking as someone taking "Prozac" or Fluoxetine as its technical term, I can truly say that I definitely see the side of what people are worried about in anti-depressants. I find it terrible that there isn't any clear scientific evidence to support what I am about to say; however, speaking from quite a large amount of experience I feel that I have enough knowledge to add some credibility to my argument.

However, before I move on to this I want to mention that before I started taking Prozac I actually took an IQ test before and each month thereafter. In terms of a change in intelligence I see nothing in the results I've gathered that this medication has an effect (well on me at least) to decline a person's overall intelligence quotient. In fact, I've made gains in the past few months as expected with adolescent growth.

The issue in prozac really lies in creativity and imagination. No studies I believe have shown that there is a loss in creativity if an individual does take Prozac; regardless, I believe that if there actually was a practical way to measure a person's creativity, it would be highly controversial. In the past few months I've felt a decrease in my capacity for creative thought. Basically, by minor observation, I might have to admit that I have definitely felt the "numming" effect which Prozac reportedly has. Not only on negative emotions but creativity and imagination as a whole. However, perhaps I'm just a bit paranoid.

Hoping to quit by the end of this year though. We'll see. I'll first need to talk to my psychiatrist who basically hands these pills out like they're OTC. (over the counter).

Originally Posted by cmind

I didn't say they didn't work as intended. They worked exactly as intended. They are intended to make you into a dissociated drug zombie that doesn't care about anything.

Wow. That idiotic statement just lost you all credibility right there. Do you think I'm a dissociated drug zombie? Do you think I don't care about anything? The effects are actually the opposite. Depression is the condition in which you don't care about anything.

I agree with Dthoughts here that depression is psychological..it's psychological, which may then affect the brain physically. Depression and sadness are just emotional states, Isn't this what a human being is entitled to feel? Sadness is only temporary, you will be happy again, but it's your responsibility to wake up and pay attention. For some reason I think people believe your supposed to just be stuck on happy, but maybe it's in the human experience to feel down sometimes.

If your feeling sad, meditation and breathing exercises will make you feel better..this in turn effects your brain physically..in a positive way. This is proof that you control your own emotional state and don't need to be emotionally controlled by these Pharmaceutical companies and by everyone else for that matter.

This all goes for the depression thing, if your having physical pain than that's something entirely different. my post is referring to mental "dis-orders".

Originally Posted by Majestic

I agree with Dthoughts here that depression is psychological..it's psychological, which may then affect the brain physically. Depression and sadness are just emotional states, Isn't this what a human being is entitled to feel? Sadness is only temporary, you will be happy again, but it's your responsibility to wake up and pay attention. For some reason I think people believe your supposed to just be stuck on happy, but maybe it's in the human experience to feel down sometimes.

If your feeling sad, meditation and breathing exercises will make you feel better..this in turn effects your brain physically..in a positive way. This is proof that you control your own emotional state and don't need to be emotionally controlled by these Pharmaceutical companies and by everyone else for that matter.

This all goes for the depression thing, if your having physical pain than that's something entirely different. my post is referring to mental "dis-orders".

Do you even understand what depression is? Apparently you don't. Depression can't be just lumped in with sadness as a trivial, temporary emotional state (which everyone agrees is healthy and natural to feel). Depression is a real condition in which your brain becomes incapable of functioning in a healthy, normal way. Even when you're just sad or blue, there are things that you can enjoy and sadness goes away. With depression, you enjoy nothing, it lasts for a very long time (if not for the rest of your life without treatment) and suicide seems like the only way out. Have you ever experienced depression?

The brain is a physical organ, just like any other part of the body. There is no ghost in the machine. Why should we dismiss real treatment for the brain just because it houses thoughts and emotion? There are much more stigmas associated with brain problems as opposed to stomach problems, or heart problems- even though they're all physical organs.

"Depressed? You're weak and stupid, just get over it."

I see a lot of personal attacks on the character of those who seek treatment for depression, anxiety or other issues that block people from functioning, which quite simply isn't fair, in fact it seems ignorant and bigoted, all in the name of rebelling against "Big Pharma" like good old conspiracy theorists.

Just look at South Korea- their suicide rate is becoming the highest in the world because there is such a stigma against depression, as if it's shameful or insane.

In korea, everyone has to sit in line at school. Doesn't have much free speech. If you talk in class u can expect teachers to wrestle u on the floor and throw a fist in ur face. Korea is awfully obsessed with producing the highest achievers in the world. (By modern standards) Ofcourse suicide rates are high there.

Khh said it. The government won't fund psychedelic research because there is no money in it. Ketamine is like the cross-over between a disassociative and psychedelic drug. It directly pumps up dopamine which is related to the warm and happy feeling that is reported on Ketamine and XTC. You can patent ketamine because it is not a natural source anymore. Plants and Fungi can not be patented because they evolved to be the products they are completely naturally. No human hand was involved in making it so it belongs to anyone on the planet.

If pharmacology was strictly interested in human well-being. We woulden't find so many different pills from different companies that do exactly the same thing. But are made up of analogue structures and different ingredients that might not even be neccesary just to get in on the money.

Stuff like running, breathing excersices, meditation. Isn't just mumbo-jumbo. Work on ur mind, fix ur body crap.
They actually give physical releases of chemicals that pharma drugs can give you. Just humming while u meditate can release endorphine. Which causes a chain reaction of dopamine release. That make peope feel empowered and inspired. And in my experience with a lot of dopamine produce it's very easy to appreciate all the beauty in and around you.

Ofcourse. Different drugs do different things. But all pharma drugs give your brain modified intakes of chemicals. Which are essential for ur well-being. But we are no-where near understanding the possible dangers of these drugs. If you are getting more intake than ur body initially bargained for it will get used to that state. And you will become physically dependant on drug intake. The pharma industry has been around for so shortly. We have no idea what kind of effect some drugs can have on our bodies and our off-spring. And indeed, there are horrible side effects associated with a lot of drugs. Maybe it's time we look at alternatives seriously?

Originally Posted by Majestic

That's the whole point I'm trying to make, anything that gives you withdrawals like that isn't good. That's like a doctor prescribing your crack or heroin.

Because all drugs that can cause withdrawal do so with the same severity as crack and heroin, right? I'm prescribed Adderall which is mixed amphetamine salts and if I miss a dose or suddenly stop taking it I'm fine unless I've abused it, in which case I'm still fine but I eat a lot and maybe have one day where nothing feels worth doing, so I lay around.

Originally Posted by Majestic

Yea your high is good, but what happens when you miss a dose?

You think people who use medications as prescribed are looking to get high? Sorry, but with anti-depressants especially, you don't really get high... at all. I've taken Prozac (SSRI) and Wellbutrin (dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor), both different types of anti-depressants, and neither ever made me feel like it was a drug I wanted to abuse. Not to mention how they make you feel is highly dependent on your personal brain chemistry. For instance, when I take Adderall I don't talk uncontrollably, I don't fidget around or look for something to do, or otherwise geek/tweek in any way. It makes me able to focus, sit still, and if I take too much, it actually sedates me to the point that I fall asleep. If I take painkillers such as lortabs, rather than make me really lazy and just sit and chill without much talking, I actually talk quite a bit and I move around just as much as I would have before taking it. This is obviously not the normal effect, and it's because my brain chemistry is different than most people's due to an imbalance of neurotransmitters in my brain. People who really suffer from depression have an imbalance of neurotransmitters as well, although not necessarily the same ones as me. Taking these drugs balances this level out, which in turn can stabilize emotions.

One thing I will say is that, in my experience, drugs like these and some others (such as stimulants) can really fuck with your head if you or your doctor doesn't know what they are doing. If you can tell something is wrong, tell your doctor, and if (s)he says to keep taking the meds then tell him/her to fuck off. The kind of state you can be put into isn't worth even the time they say you should wait for the meds to build up in your bloodstream. I am not talking about feeling like a zombie or unemotional, I'm talking about being paranoid, delusional, and/or extremely emotional. If something feels very off to you, then talk to your doctor about weening yourself off the meds or look up which one you're taking and see if it's safe to quit suddenly (in my case, Wellbutrin I can quit cold turkey any time I want, no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever; however, it isn't like most anti-depressants so I wouldn't suggest it for something like a tricyclic or SSRI). What's worse about all this is that dosage changes can make all the difference. I was and still am prescribed 150mg Wellbutrin XL (for ADD, not depression), and I'm just fine on that. In fact, if anything, it stabilizes my emotions and makes it more difficult to get overly upset. Bump my dose up to 300mg, and my world is turned into massive gaping shithole in which my emotions are highly volatile. It was very easy to become upset, and once upset, I would continually build on it. I experienced a lot of difficulty with getting happy/positive again once I got upset (even over something tiny).

That being said, with the right drug and the right dosage, these drugs can be highly beneficial. Any talk of outright outlawing them is petty fear-mongering. Until a better alternative that has been well established turns up, I'm perfectly fine with anti-depressants being prescribed.

edit:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

I've taken a lot of different types of drugs (really just to try them, most I don't do any more) and I can say from experience that anti-depressants are nothing like dissociatives. Unless you're experiencing hallucinations or delusions of some sort, in most cases I wouldn't consider them psychoactive either. I could maybe see somebody saying you are emotionally detached, as I said above 150mg Wellbutrin XL daily makes it hard for me to become overly upset. I'm sure some people really do experience zombie-ification from some anti-depressants. That's not to say, however, that it is psychoactively dissociative like DXM or Ketamine.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

"Depressed? You're weak and stupid, just get over it."

You'll be alright Deery.

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone taking meds. I was just stating how their are other ways to treat depression without having to take medication from a doctor.

To answer your question, yea I've been depressed before...deeply, I was suicidal before, I've been in situations that would scare most people on this website. I know what people are depressed are going through. But it passes once you start paying more attention and being awake , rather than having to deal with side effects from medication that is worse than what it's supposed to be curing. It's not like this for everyone, but some people actually die from taking legal medication. This isn't fear mongering..this is just facts.

How many times have you seen television ads about someone dying from a legal medication and to call the number on the screen to sue the company.

Like I said depression ( no matter how deep ) is just an emotional state, and is usually a resistance to your current circumstances.

Stuff like running, breathing excersices, meditation. Isn't just mumbo-jumbo. Work on ur mind, fix ur body crap.
They actually give physical releases of chemicals that pharma drugs can give you. Just humming while u meditate can release endorphine. Which causes a chain reaction of dopamine release. That make peope feel empowered and inspired. And in my experience with a lot of dopamine produce it's very easy to appreciate all the beauty in and around you.

Ofcourse. Different drugs do different things. But all pharma drugs give your brain modified intakes of chemicals. Which are essential for ur well-being. But we are no-where near understanding the possible dangers of these drugs. If you are getting more intake than ur body initially bargained for it will get used to that state. And you will become physically dependant on drug intake. The pharma industry has been around for so shortly. We have no idea what kind of effect some drugs can have on our bodies and our off-spring. And indeed, there are horrible side effects associated with a lot of drugs. Maybe it's time we look at alternatives seriously?

Exactly, which goes back to me saying you can change your own brain chemistry..no need for a doctor to do it for you. If your depressed, exercise releases endorphins much like an Anti-Depressant pill, breathing exercises, meditation, playing a musical instruments, running. Sometimes It's just as simple as stop being lazy and awake.

Originally Posted by Majestic

You'll be alright Deery.

A)I don't mean to offend or attack anyone taking meds. I was just stating how their are other ways to treat depression without having to take medication from a doctor.

B)To answer your question, yea I've been depressed before...deeply, I was suicidal before, I've been in situations that would scare most people on this website. I know what people are depressed are going through. But it passes once you start paying more attention and being awake , rather than having to deal with side effects from medication that is worse than what it's supposed to be curing. It's not like this for everyone, but some people actually die from taking legal medication. This isn't fear mongering..this is just facts.

C)How many times have you seen television ads about someone dying from a legal medication and to call the number on the screen to sue the company.

My responses to what I've bolded:

A)I agree with you there.

B)Some people actually die from eating food, even if the food isn't poisoned. That's a fact. Millions of people die a year from car accidents, that's a fact. Yet, you don't see me advocating anorexia or for making motor vehicles illegal to drive. What you're doing is fear mongering because you left out facts like those to make the drugs sound worse than they are. If you didn't do it purposefully then you may be a victim of the fear mongering yourself.

C)You realize they make money doing that, right? If you call in, more likely than not you aren't going to win the case. Even more, how's one supposed to know that you can sue for something like that? Oh, I know, market the hell out of it on TV since everyone seems to like that so much. The number of commercials you see is not proportional to how many deaths or ill effects actually exist.

Lastly, I'd like to reiterate what I said before: not everyone's brain chemistry is the same. I agree mild depression should not be treated with anti-depressants because everyone feels blue from time to time, it isn't as much of a neurotransmitter imbalance so much as you just experiencing emotions and being human. However, some people are depressed beyond their control. Their brain is not making enough of something for them to ever be happy, serotonin and dopamine being the prime suspects, usually what the drugs treat for. You seem to think the way I did a few years back, that everything was a choice. The simple fact is that sometimes things are beyond your control and you need extra help, chemical help.

snoop, thanks for answering my question - I thought it was going to be completely ignored.

Majestic, it sounds like you've never actually had clinical depression. It's nothing like just being really sad.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Wow. That idiotic statement just lost you all credibility right there. Do you think I'm a dissociated drug zombie? Do you think I don't care about anything? The effects are actually the opposite. Depression is the condition in which you don't care about anything.

Haha, ok. Meanwhile, I'm living the good life drug-free and you're still suffering. I'm fine with that.

Damn dude! You gonna shout at a few homeless people that they should get a job while you're at it?