Thread: Greece About to Vote on Austerity

In a few hours, the Greek government will vote whether or not they will enforce further cuts of the state, to meet the demands of the EU and IMF to make their economy credible, and so obtain further loans.

If Greece does not receive this loan, it will probably have to default on its massive debts and leave the EU. This could trigger a wave of defaults across Southern Europe. The debts are held by other countries and banks, and a refusal to pay them will probably instigate a second global financial crisis, this time caused by national rather than private indebtedness.

However, most of the Greek population seems to feel entitled to continue receiving more money from the rest of the world indefinitely without bothering to work and build a viable country. They are rioting in the streets for this right, and the government is now extremely tenuous.

What are your thoughts?

Looks like the options are 1) default now, or 2) default later.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Looks like the options are 1) default now, or 2) default later.

I don't know much about economics, but this sounds about right.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Looks like the options are 1) default now, or 2) default later.

In Macedonia we have a saying that translated in English would be something like "I'm in debt like Greece" and this saying is at least 30 years old. so it might take another 30 years before 2) default later happens

It reminds me of the US and most other major countries. We see we have a huge problem with our debt and we know we need to fix it yet the politicians still wont fix it. The difference is that most people in the US actually want the debt problem fixed, though they are to lazy to actually go through with it. I don't think there are many who say yea lets screw everyone else as we go down.

I'm sure the German people would just love bailing them out again.

Originally Posted by Seroquel

I'm sure the German people would just love bailing them out again.

I know, right?

Honestly, I tried to find something better to post but this is just such a classic.

Well just look at the the US, we have been in debt for like a 100 years. Some economist really hold the belief that you can be in debt forever and it isn't going to hurt you, and our government runs on that philosophy. We will never pay back the debt, and no one even wants to attempt to do it. I don't know what the plan is, but I guess its something like, if we delay the debt long enough the economy will grow so large we can pay it off in one shot. Or if we delay the debt long enough, eventually technology will give us everything we want and money will become obsolete, then we can sneak out without ever having paid it off.

Dispelling "Lazy Greeks" myth: Democracy vs Mythology: The Battle in Syntagma Square « sturdyblog

The greek people aren't rioting because they want to be bailed out without austerity, they are rioting because they know their corrupt government accepting loans to pay off the banks isn't going to do anything to avoid a default. The Bailout is not for the Greek people; its purpose is to give the government money to pay their interest on their debts for awhile longer so that the banks can get in a better position when the inevitable default does finally come, and to give private investors a chance to buy up greek assets.

That may be part of the reason they are voting, but there is no doubt that their state is out of control. Ever been to Southern Europe? I've been to Greece a few times on holiday. Talk to the locals and you soon find out the picture. The state is inflated and corrupt as hell, the public commonly get cushy jobs it's almost impossible to be fired from and turn up once a month, it's nuts. There is no real work ethic. Asides from tourist centres the place is pretty barren, just vineyards and olive plantations, very rural.

I was incorrect about the government vote by the way; it was a vote of confidence in the government. The government now has legitimacy; it's next week that they vote on these cuts. As people have said though, it's probably not a matter of if, but when. Undoubtedly soon.

Don't know if you read that link I gave you Xei, the author presents data that shows greeks working more hours and taking less time off than Germans or Brits.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Don't know if you read that link I gave you Xei, the author presents data that shows greeks working more hours and taking less time off than Germans or Brits.

And I suggested that the Greek state is a fudging bureaucracy...

I'd say the same about the UK, Germany and the U.S. (and probably everybody else) so I guess you're right, your anecdotal evidence of "that one time I vacationed in Greece" is a more reliable source for information about an entire country's work ethic.

...than a blog.

If you were a careful reader, you'd know that the data came from Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

Dammit Xaq. Xei was making Greece sound so nice too and then you have to come in with "facts" and "figures" and ruin it. Fuck that.

At any rate, I don't see how they're broke with all the money I spend on Greek yogurt...

The recipe for greek yogurt was privatized during the first round of bailouts.

I think they are preparing to send yet another money package from here at least. I have a lot better idea.
Here it comes :
Instead of taking loans they should sell a little pieces of their country. I would certainly like to buy a little island from Greece rather than see my taxation moneys go there.

It won't be you buying up greek property. It will be the people who are forcing the bailouts in the first place. The purpose of economic collapse is world domination. The world bank and IMF have been doing it for many years to the third world because they are easily manipulated. The first world takes a little more nuance which is why this whole process takes so long. The entire purpose of economic depression, which is hardwired into our economic system, is wealth consolidation.

So the vote for austerity went through. My view has been pretty well explained by Xaq so I'll just leave it at that.

Forgive me for being sceptical about any omniscient shadowy groups manipulating the world into their pockets, but I tend to relate world events like these to a simpler and more widely accepted principle: people are idiots. Specifically people who have a lot of power regardless of if they have any talent, politicians being an excellent example. Just look at the Arab spring; it made a complete fucking farce of the Western powers. They thought they had this thing sussed and sorted indefinitely, nicely controlled and predictable; then when it happened they were scrambling all over the place and had no fucking clue what to do. We're talking about countries with vast intelligence agencies at their disposal. Most of the time people are just too myopic and plain dumb, and humans too chaotic, to even see what's ten years around the corner, let alone be able to control it; and that's what's happening here.

There was an ex-politician on a politics show on TV tonight, a guy that I respect for always talking facts and making total sense, and he making sense tonight when he was talking about a complete clusterfuck around the corner. Greece has bought itself a few months, but there is no way it is going to sort out the mess in that time; the country is insolvent and we will never see that loan money again. Default is the only option. The only viable approach is to negotiate Greece out of the Eurozone, but the politicians are paralysed. It doesn't help that the new head of the IMF is saying that Greece leaving must be avoided at all costs (on personal ideological grounds) when that goes totally against her responsibility to stabilize the world economy. The debt situation in Europe is a crisis hardwired into the system, and the house of cards is about to come tumbling down... God knows what could happen, the global national debt problem is ridiculous, just look at America.

All the major countries are in massive debt, and that is just what the governments admit to. Almost all countries have much larger actual debts, but they are constantly playing with the numbers to make it look better. It all goes back to the theory that we need to go in debt in order to improve economic conditions, which is a stupid, moronic idea, but one highly regarded as the best way to run economies in the world.

The groups that you are refering to are not omnicient or very shadowy. A small amount of research would point out who they are. I'm sure you have heard of the Bilderberg group, and probably also the trilateral commission and the council on foreign relations. Thats pretty much it. You assume that the new IMF head is acting solely on personal ideologies but don't you think there is a possibility that her motivations are based at least in part on information that you do not have access to? Perhaps her goals are not exactly in line with your assumptions? Just look for who will benefit from the whole situation if you want to start to find the real motives.

Everything appears chaotic when you don't have nearly all of the information needed in order to make sense of the situation. The picture that you are given on the news, in press conferences and other public statements is a very small part of the over all agenda.

p.s. I'm working on a thread that I hope will put this whole thing into a much clearer historicial context.

I hope so because at the moment there is nothing at all I can take from what you're saying...