Sucker Punch movie coming out this weekend

**AURON** · 04-05-2011 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Spoiler for I still haven't decided...:

Well I think

Spoiler for yeah:

**StonedApe** · 04-06-2011 04:34 AM

The trailer didn't look that great, but it's about dreaming so it's probably not too bad. Seems like the type of movie that you'd have to see in theaters though and I probably won't get around to it before it stops playing.

**nina** · 04-06-2011 09:00 AM

It's not about dreaming.

**StonedApe** · 04-06-2011 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

It's not about dreaming.

ahhh, I was thrown off by all the people saying it was in this thread, probably not gonna watch this then. Not too big on action movies.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 04-06-2011 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by stonedape

ahhh, I was thrown off by all the people saying it was in this thread, probably not gonna watch this then. Not too big on action movies.

It's about 'dreaming', in the sense that it's about someone with a dissociative disorder fantasizing/visualizing the world in a different way. Everything happens in terms of symbolisms and representations, just as it does in a general 'dream.' The only difference is that the person is not actually asleep.

**spockman** · 04-06-2011 08:32 PM

Just by watching the trailers, I got the impression it would be about a bunch of people in a mental asylum who say, "Look, we are all bat guano insane anyway. Let's just embrace the crazy and have adventures in our made up worlds. We may as well."

**Oneironaut Zero** · 04-07-2011 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by spockman

Just by watching the trailers, I got the impression it would be about a bunch of people in a mental asylum who say, "Look, we are all bat guano insane anyway. Let's just embrace the crazy and have adventures in our made up worlds. We may as well."

Basically, it's about (spoilers ahead)...

A young girl and her sister are targeted by their stepfather, because their wealthy mother has died. In a rage, he attacks the smallest sister, and the big sister shoots at him but ends up killing her sister with the ricochet. The stepdad then calls the police and gets her put into an asylum, stating that she lost her mind after her mother died (which we are never told whether it is actually true or not, but we never actually get to hear this girl talk, on the asylum level, which implies she might actually be Nucking Futs.). He then makes a deal with a corrupt orderly to have the girl lobotomized in 5 days, so that she can't tell anyone of what happened, and he could get his money. While the girl is in the asylum, she spots a group of girls in the 'theater,' which is a shitty stage set-up that the psychiatrist uses to help the girls try to socialize and cope with their trauma. One girl, in particular, she makes eye contact with...

For the rest of the time in the asylum, the girl is introduced to a sort of sex ring that the orderlies are involved in. One orderly, in particular, is pimping these girls out to other faculty members for cash. He even makes a deal with the lobotomist to let him get in on the action. So, for the rest of the film, we are taken away from the harsh reality of the asylum, and into this girl's mind. We see the asylum not as an asylum anymore. We see it as a brothel and burlesque theater (because that is how she views it). In this layer of fantasy, the girl becomes friends with the girls she saw in the 'theater,' and they are all forced to 'dance' for the men (which is a visual euphemism for being sexually assaulted). She then tells the girls of a plan she's devised to escape, and they agree to join in (some more reluctantly than others). The plan is for the lead girl to 'dance' for certain guys, to distract them while the other girls get in close and pick-their pockets/offices for the key items she needs to escape.

While she is 'dancing' (which she is being forced to do), she slips away into an even deeper layer of fantasy to dissociate from being put on stage and made to dance for these pigs. In this deeper level, she and the girls helping to escape are warriors. Each 'job' they pull off is a 'mission' she sees in her head. For instance, one of the items is a lighter from one a cigar-smoking orderly. In the brothel level, she sees him as the mayor of the town (he controls who enters/leaves the asylum). In the next level down, she sees him as an angry mother dragon (cigar-smoking, smoke-breathing), whose baby's throat they have to slit to pull out two stones which - when rubbed together - produce fire (they have to steal the Zippo lighter, which you open by flipping its 'head' back, and then strike the flint and while together to make fire). As a representation of their trying to pick-pocket his lighter in the other realities, we are treated to an awesome battle scene of the girls trying to steal this special fire from the dragon.

The movie is not only full of such cross-reality symbolism, but it also blurs the lines between the fantasy and the reality, so by the end, you end up wondering what actually happened in 'real life' (the asylum level), and whether all of these girls actually participated in the escape or they were just projections of who we are led to believe is the main character. I say 'led to believe' because the movie also deliberately presents the mystery of who is actually telling the story; who is the 'subject' of the tale. We are meant to explore this idea by looking into how the characters interact, what they represent, what they say, and how they correspond to other concepts in the movie.

To me, this movie has all the replay value of a video game (pun intended). It's well-acted; original; surprisingly mind-bending; tragic; deeper than many are willing to admit and has some of the best action I've ever seen. One thing that people seem to be missing, is that the movie plays like a piece of graphic art. There is sooo much that is (deliberately, as even the filmmakers have said) left to interpretation, creating a subjective relationship between the piece and the viewer - which is a staple of graphic art. The problem is that people are effectively seeing two different movies, because they are seeing it on one of many possible wavelengths. It's amazing, on IMDB how many people are ripping on this movie, but have absolutely no awareness of many of the most important aspects of the movie. It simply went right over their heads.

I also can't help but laugh at all the cries of "this movie has no plot" from the people who just saw "a anime/videogame/fantasy/geekdom fanboy's mindless, fetishized CGI-fest," from the people who were so distracted by the action that they completely missed the rest of the film.

The tag line "You Will Be Unprepared" turned out to be truth in advertising...

**nina** · 04-07-2011 04:48 PM

Are you sure it "went right over their heads"? The plot is...kinda hard to miss. So unless they are mentally retarded...maybe it just didn't appeal to them rather than them being completely oblivious about the storyline? Then again, a lot of people on IMDB are extremely idiotic, so I wouldn't take anything they say worth a grain of salt. Or maybe they were just distracted by Baby...damn is she cute.

Completely agree about the graphic novel aspect though...which is probably why the movie is getting such mixed reviews. I know a few people that enjoy graphic novels, but on the whole, most people I'm acquainted with in RL are completely unfamiliar with them or have absolutely no interest in ever reading one. It's definitely going to be geared toward a more narrow audience.

There are definitely movies that I absolutely love which received pretty awful reviews or that most people hated if they even bothered seeing it. They couldn't get past some of the flashy distractions and eye candy to see how deep the movie really was. It's disappointing. But like I said, I need to see this movie in better quality. The version I saw, I couldn't even tell that Baby killed her sister, I thought it was the step dad and he just puts the blame on her. Not that it's a huge deal, but I'm sure there were lots of other things like that which I must have missed. But this is probably one of those movies I'll end up watching 50 times.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 04-07-2011 04:58 PM

Are you sure it "went right over their heads"? The plot is...kinda hard to miss.

I definitely don't mean everyone who didn't like the movie 'didn't get it. It's more along the lines of that there are a lot of people who completely fail to acknowledge that there was any sort of story going on, whatsoever. But, as you said, a lot of people on IMDB are idiots. Lol.

The scene with the ricochet looks badly cut, to me. The director has said that the MPAA has basically shaved off a good 20minutes of this movie, and I'm hoping that this particular scene was done a little better, in the final cut. All they show is that it busted the light and then, in the next shot, you see steam shooting out of the pipe it ricocheted off of. It was rather vague. However, with this movie being all about interpretation, I can't help but wonder if it was deliberate, and not just bad writing.

**nina** · 04-07-2011 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

The scene with the ricochet looks badly cut, to me. The director has said that the MPAA has basically shaved off a good 20minutes of this movie, and I'm hoping that this particular scene was done a little better, in the final cut. All they show is that it busted the light and then, in the next shot, you see steam shooting out of the pipe it ricocheted off of. It was rather vague. However, with this movie being all about interpretation, I can't help but wonder if it was deliberate, and not just bad writing.

Ok, that's pretty much what I remember, but I knew I must have missed something because it didn't make much sense to me why the stepfather would just outright kill her like that. I knew that Baby felt extremely guilty about her sister's death, but I thought it was because she didn't get there in time to save her. But it does make much more sense if she accidentally kills her. And it sorta parallels her indirect responsibility for Rocket's death...the other little sister in the movie. I really enjoyed the sister connection in this movie. Not enough movies have it.

**Caden** · 04-08-2011 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Ok, that's pretty much what I remember, but I knew I must have missed something because it didn't make much sense to me why the stepfather would just outright kill her like that. I knew that Baby felt extremely guilty about her sister's death, but I thought it was because she didn't get there in time to save her. But it does make much more sense if she accidentally kills her. And it sorta parallels her indirect responsibility for Rocket's death...the other little sister in the movie. I really enjoyed the sister connection in this movie. Not enough movies have it.

It is vague and I think that is so you can never be quite sure who killed her. This makes baby Doll more edgy and puts the whole story on edge, is she a killer, is she crazy, is this whole movie some sort of crazy dream scene? This keeps people engaged.

Don't worry about what Oneironaut saw, he's seen it a thousand times already and probably knows it better than the director himself. When it comes out on DVD I intend to seriously close in one Oneironaut's number of viewings. He's the expert on this movie though and I have to agree with everything he has said about it, this movie has a big easy to see plot with tons of symbolism.

I also think there is a negative graphic novel prejudice when it comes to reviews. I know graphic novels a little and I also loved Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World and Watchmen but similarly these received poor reviews and these were great movies! I think graphic novel are just a way of thinking or a liberal way of story telling that people are not familiar with and that angers those people. Screw'em, 20 years from now this form of story telling will be common and you can tell your kids, or grand kids, "I liked that back when it first came out and it wasn't cool to like it".

**spockman** · 04-08-2011 03:29 AM

The wording on the part about graphic novels not being respected is a little vague, Caden. Mainly, The Watchmen graphic novel is probably the most acclaimed and well reviewed graphic novel of all time, reaching a level of reputation well up there with any classic literature. Unless you meant just the movie. As far as Scott Pilgrim, I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it did a lot of cool, new things. I do understand why it recieved some of the poor reviews it recieved, however. I think translating graphic novels into movies can be tough.

Just as certain stories, in their nature, lend to plays, some lend to graphic novels. It is a little differentgoing from book to movie. One is visual, one is not, so you can judge them independant of each other. But like me, personally, I have a tough time not comparing a graphic novel movie directly to the graphic novel since they are both visual, so the movie doesn't stand up as well. Just like if I compare plays to movie iterations of plays. I make the judgement more directly then if it was a book to movie translation.

**Caden** · 04-08-2011 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by spockman

The wording on the part about graphic novels not being respected is a little vague, Caden. Mainly, The Watchmen graphic novel is probably the most acclaimed and well reviewed graphic novel of all time, reaching a level of reputation well up there with any classic literature. Unless you meant just the movie. As far as Scott Pilgrim, I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it did a lot of cool, new things. I do understand why it recieved some of the poor reviews it recieved, however. I think translating graphic novels into movies can be tough.

Just as certain stories, in their nature, lend to plays, some lend to graphic novels. It is a little differentgoing from book to movie. One is visual, one is not, so you can judge them independant of each other. But like me, personally, I have a tough time not comparing a graphic novel movie directly to the graphic novel since they are both visual, so the movie doesn't stand up as well. Just like if I compare plays to movie iterations of plays. I make the judgement more directly then if it was a book to movie translation.

Just the movie.
I read Watchmen before I saw it but I never try to compare that's an unfair comparison. I loved the movie and the graphic novel. They were both judged by me on their own merit.

I'd like to hear more about how people feel about this. Is t here is a way of telling a story from a graphic novel that is different?

**spockman** · 04-08-2011 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Caden

Just the movie.
I read Watchmen before I saw it but I never try to compare that's an unfair comparison. I loved the movie and the graphic novel. They were both judged by me on their own merit.

I'd like to hear more about how people feel about this. Is t here is a way of telling a story from a graphic novel that is different?

The way I see it is this- if there is no part of the story a movie cannot tell, or at least tell better, then the graphic novel, it is pointless to make the movie from a story perspective. This isn't the case for a book to movie, since a book is not a visual medium so the movie will naturally explore something unique. This is a simpler way to put it then I put it last time, I think.

**Invader** · 04-08-2011 05:54 AM

(le spoilers)

The movie fell short of expectations for me. Great concept, bad plot points/execution. I think it was very odd that when Babydoll presents her "plan" to escape to the other girls, no one questions what the items are for or what will be done to actually escape. That made the entire thing feel dumbed down, as if I were playing a game made for younger audiences with simple objectives. On top of that, the upper reality in which the girls were fighting in a fantasy world looked to play out as an appeal to stereotypical male likes: girls in suggestive clothing and fighting scenes. The slow motion was used a little too much at one point (during the train scene I think?). Babydoll's acting was very one-track as well. It was great in the beginning when she rage-modes after her mother passes away, but afterwards... I don't know, maybe it was because she felt numb from the trauma of having killed her sister accidentally and then being committed to a psych ward. The pimp's acting was more worthy, he passed as a decent scumbag. The other girls... Meh. Too much "Yay heehee let's do this myah!"

I was nevertheless confused after the movie had ended; should I have liked it or not liked it? Again, I think it's a cool concept, but it could have been executed in a much more.. believable manner, at least on part of the depth of the characters. The fighting scenes could have been made to seem more as if they posed some kind of real threat to the characters (which is ironic considering what happens to Rocket). It's difficult to become immersed if you feel as if the characters aren't in any real danger. Difficult to sympathize.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 04-08-2011 08:37 AM

It's difficult to become immersed if you feel as if the characters aren't in any real danger. Difficult to sympathize.

I honestly don't get why people feel this way. Personally, I think this only applies if you look at the battle scenes as if they are actual battles, happening in the real world. The danger/consequence doesn't come from physical threat, as it is portrayed in the fantasy. The threat comes from what happens if they are unable to complete these missions (lobotomy; being killed by Blue; etc.). I think it takes being able to look at the situation from that perspective to realize the risk that was associated with each mission. In the final mission, the danger was more immediate, because the cook had a knife. But there was risk associated with completing every mission they showed - even the first one.

Remember: "If you do not dance, you have no purpose. And we don't keep things here that have no purpose."

She knows that she has to 'perform' to get through the ordeal (which then turns into having to perform, to keep the men occupied while she steals from them). The missions are representative of what she has to go through, mentally, to endure the whole asylum/abuse experience, and the threat of getting caught while trying to deceive her captors.

But, in other news: Here's a pretty interesting commentary on the first 5 minutes of the movie, and some of the recurring symbolism that follows.
First Five Minutes of Sucker Punch Dissected

[Edit]
Also, here is an awesome post by someone on IMDB, talking about some possible background on the Sucker Punch world:

Spoiler for http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0978764/board/thread/180862404:

The more I discover about this movie's subtleties, the more I love it.

Most underrated movie ever.

**nina** · 04-08-2011 02:18 PM

Question O: why do you keep saying "dance" and "perform" like that in quotations. You aren't implying that she is doing anything, besides just dancing, are you? Because that wouldn't make sense to me. It's not like everyone is standing around applauding her for being such a great lay or something. Maybe I misunderstand your implication. But if they are saving her for the High Roller, it also wouldn't make sense that she would be having sexual involvement with these guys first.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 04-08-2011 06:11 PM

Yes. That's what I'm implying. Each fantasy is a metaphor for what is actually happening - even the brothel level. I believe she has created the 'dance' to cope with the times she is either being sexually molested or having to do the deceptive seducing, herself, in the asylum. I don't believe that everyone is just standing around watching her (as they are doing in the brothel level), but Baby knows about the solicitation of the girls to the staff, so I think she 'projects' them as the audience. Perhaps the first fantasy (the temple) is just Baby Doll practicing up on the 'theater' (asylum) stage, and is representative of her struggle to pull herself together enough to participate? We really aren't shown. The brothel level is the part that is left up to the most interpretation, but the idea that the girls are being 'whored' out to the staff is suggested in both the asylum level (Guard: "I'm not hurting these girls anymore..." Guard 2: "I'm not doing this...") and the brothel (Rocket: "Blue owns the club, and we my dear are the main attractions....Ta-da! The club's a front for his business; guns, gambling, medications, special favors. He brings in his clients, and we gotta make 'em feel...you know...special..."). There is even a deleted scene between Baby Doll and the High Roller.

Also, in the early portion, when they show the flashes of what happens to Baby in the asylum, we see that one imposing shot of Blue learning down over her while she's cleaning the toilet, with this menacing look on his face. Then, in the next shot, we see her on Gorski's couch, crying. We are never shown what actually happens to her while in there, but the director has said that the most horrific realities of the asylum level are presented in another way on the other levels. Whether or not that's actually the case is up for debate, but that's my take on it.

[Edit]

Spoiler for Identity Crisis...:

**nina** · 04-08-2011 09:27 PM

Very illuminating.

I definitely didn't see it that way when I watched it. Apparently I got caught up in Baby's delusion and forget that the whole brothel thing wasn't actually happening. But this is because I only watched it once, and you don't really find out that she's still in the asylum until the end of the movie...so when I watched the brothel scenes, it was as though it was real and not merely an illusion. This is why I usually don't talk about a movie until I've seen it at least twice.

But yes, I completely agree. And now that I can look at it from that way...the scene with the cook makes a lot more sense. So does the relationship with the woman (Dr. Vera), who is really the girls' therapist/pdoc(?). I had trouble figuring out her motivations and her relationships with the various characters and how it began to change toward the end. I can only assume this is because she was against Baby getting the lobotomy, and Baby began to think of her more as a friend when she realized that she was not involved in the girls being abused. And this makes sense that Blue would start exerting some control over her in the brothel, if Baby had come to consider Dr. Vera a friend, then Baby would have seen her as being subservient in her delusion, to bring her down to her own level in a way. Even though, obviously she had the power over Blue in the asylum.

I might head to the theater tonight and see it.

This movie is deep. I feel like I would have picked up on the depth of all those levels the second time around...because then you are watching it, knowing what is really going on, and sorta psychoanalyze everything.

Thanks O. You are my go-to man for movies these days hehe.