Dreaming that you are Lucid Vs. Being really Lucid

[ZappPSR]

Sometimes in the morning, I recall a LD. But it is like a dream that I was lucid, doing reality checks and making things, but I have the feeling that I was not in control, that it was a dream of a Lucid Dream. Sometimes though, I realize in the middle of the dream that I'm Lucid, an usually I say "Stop. Attention... be calm... take control" The difference between Situation A and Situation B is that in Situation B I usually break the flow of what was happening and decide what to do. In Situation A is more likelly I was going with the flow. When I take over the dream, I generally go outside (if I were indoor), and try to take a good look on the surroundings. After that, I will try to fly, or talk to DCs. Have you ever experienced these two differente LD feelings? [] - On the flow [] - Break the flow ??????????????

[Zmey]

Oh yes, it's natural to dream of anything, and when lucidities become a part of your life - it's natural to have a dream for Lucid dream. I have similar experiences either .. but I wouldn't call this Lucid dream. You've observed you're not that kind of free as in LD, haven't u? : )

[ZappPSR]

Sort of...

[TygrHawk]

A lucid dream does not necessarily include dream control. If you are aware of the fact that you are dreaming (as it would seem to be if you are doing reality checks), then you are lucid.

[ZappPSR]

But Wayne, I don't beleive it was a LD. It was dream about me having a LD. It is just a memory of a dream, and not something like..."Ok, I must be dreaming... but I won't do anything..."

[TygrHawk]

If you say so -- I wasn't there. You say "memory of a dream" -- well, once you wake up, aren't all your dreams just memories, lucid or not? Just like whatever you did yesterday is now just a memory. It is hard for me to imagine doing RCs in a dream without being aware I'm dreaming -- I mean, the act of doing a reality check is basically the same as asking the question, "Am I dreaming?" Did you not come up with an answer? You said "doing RCs and making things", which to me implies that you checked reality, realized you were dreaming, and took control of the dream. If you meant something else, please tell me. I know I'm probably being dense on this subject, because it has come up several times from a number of different people, and most seem to understand the concept except me -- I just can't get my mind around it somehow. I'm not trying to be obstinate, really.

[Feeble Wizard]

I also have noticed that sometimes you are in control and sometimes you just do things that imply control. Often, within a "lucid dream" I kind of go back and forth between these two situations. I think that the main difference between these two states is that in a true lucid dream, your prefrontal cortex (the part of your brain that gives you free will) is activated. In normal dreaming, scientists have found that this is shut off during normal sleep, which explains why we have no control in normal dreams. Although it has not been tested (Why not?), I am pretty sure that in a conscious lucid dream the prefrontal cortex is activated. So in a "fake lucid", I'll bet that that part of the brain is still shut down, while the other parts of the brain know that they are dreaming. Interestingly, I have had a few dreams in which I had complete control and will, but never figured out that I was dreaming. Once I was frightened because I thought that I was hallucinating and going insane ! TigrHawk, having your prefrontal cortex activated has a distinct sensation to it that is hard to describe. I can feel it strongest when I meditate on my breath...

[Dew Dust]

I totally understand what ZappPSR says because I question myself if I was dreaming of being lucid. If I focus or become obsessed with something in waking life, it comes over into the dream world. If I have become obsessed with doing reality checks, guess what I am going to dream about Same thing with the concept of being lucid. In my lastest lucid dreams, I become aware that I am dreaming, but I don't feel like I have total control...I don't feel like myself. Plain and simple. I am not my normal thinking, decision-making, observing, etc. self. You can 'feel' the difference. What you say Feeble Wizard is very interesting.

[jay dawg]

ahhhhhh crap i just had a dream that me and those druggies from the super troopers intro were driving backwards at high speeds on a rail raod track in the dark. we were screaming and i was like "this is just a dream no big deal i know the outcome ive seen it in a movie somewhere its just a dream" haha i didnt get lucid...... OH WELL (and there is no traintrack part on that movie anyway.....)

[Jrels]

Originally posted by Dew Dust I become aware that I am dreaming, but I don't feel like I have total control...I don't feel like myself. Plain and simple. I am not my normal thinking, decision-making, observing, etc. self. You can 'feel' the difference. I think I understand what you're saying. I think there is a certain balance to maintain when lucid dreaming. In I way, I think, you have allow the dream content to progress while holding on to somewhat of real-time thinking. Too much conscious thought will lead to waking yourself, and, on the other hand, overwhelming dream content can revert you to non-lucidity. With this in mind, it isn't hard to imagine that someone could find themselves somewhere in the middle.

[Dew Dust]

I think I understand what you're saying. I think there is a certain balance to maintain when lucid dreaming. In I way, I think, you have allow the dream content to progress while holding on to somewhat of real-time thinking. Too much conscious thought will lead to waking yourself, and, on the other hand, overwhelming dream content can revert you to non-lucidity. With this in mind, it isn't hard to imagine that someone could find themselves somewhere in the middle.[/b] You have a very good point there

[jay dawg]

once again i had another non LD dream about LDing. i was in a massive school type building and starting flying upwards. it was rather difficult and i was wobbling around. some people looked at me in amazement. i was telling myself "this is a dream so its easy to fly just do it" i swear to god i was not even close to being lucid. this blows. how could that not get me lucid. honestly

[Feeble Wizard]

Originally posted by jay dawg once again i had another non LD dream about LDing. i was in a massive school type building and starting flying upwards. it was rather difficult and i was wobbling around. some people looked at me in amazement. i was telling myself \"this is a dream so its easy to fly just do it\" i swear to god i was not even close to being lucid. this blows. how could that not get me lucid. honestly Actually, I think that you were definitely having the kind of controlled lucid dream that we are talking about here. By "control", we do not mean that you can easily fly, teleport, and transform things; rather, "control" means that your thoughts arise from a true thought process, rather than your thoughts merely being dream content. Technically, TigrHawk is right in that any dream in which you know that you are dreaming is considered a lucid dream by most definitions. However, the possibilities are endless only when you not only know that you are dreaming, but also have a proper thought process with true volition. When I dream I find that my consciousness is usually somewhere in between random thoughts and full-blown consciousness. I think that sometimes when you stop yourself as ZappPSR suggests, it creates a sort of positive feedback in which the more conscious you are, the more able you are to make yourself more aware. This is what creates the big rush of awareness that people sometimes get.

[jay dawg]

possibly a very low lvl lucid control? is that what you mean? i doubt it being full blown lucidity as my real LDs find me waking from them in excitement. this one went on forever. ah i just remembered another dream of LDing i had while the site was down: i was searching a dark cabin for something. i had a dying flashlight. as i would say clarity now the light would get brighter for a bit. did that a few times.

[Distant Clone]

Originally posted by Feeble Wizard I think that the main difference between these two states is that in a true lucid dream, your prefrontal cortex (the part of your brain that gives you free will) is activated. *In normal dreaming, scientists have found that this is shut off during normal sleep I'm not challenging this, but I don't think it is so simple. Due to a recent lucid dream I've had, I think there is more to this prefrontal cortex than just on or off. Usually, the awareness for a lucid dream turns on really fast, i.e. "Aha! I'm dreaming". Not that long ago, I had a dream where this awareness turned on slowly, and I knew I was aware, I was just waiting for a dream sign to confirm I was dreaming. Other times, it moves slowly, and does not quite fully kick in, i.e. a semi-lucid dream where it is more vivid than normal, you can seemingly control things, but not know you are dreaming. During the next couple nights, I will feel for the prefrontal cortex, and tell it to stay awake or in this transitory state. I will see if this increases my lucid dreaming. I've already done this with the logic part of my brain, telling that to stay on when I went to sleep. That could have triggered the slow activation of the prefrontal cortex. I'm going to look more into the brain, and what parts of the brain do what.

[Feeble Wizard]

Yeah, I would have to agree that it is not always completely on or off. In fact, most of my dreams are exactly like the ones you just described in terms of control! I tried to say that below, but maybe I should have used the word "control" instead of "consciousness. Also, the "rush of awareness" was only meant as a special case in which you do as ZappPSR suggested and stop yourself. Originally posted by Feeble Wizard When I dream I find that my consciousness is usually somewhere in between random thoughts and full-blown consciousness. *I think that sometimes when you stop yourself as ZappPSR suggests, it creates a sort of positive feedback in which the more conscious you are, the more able you are to make yourself more aware. *This is what creates the big rush of awareness that people sometimes get. You have an interesting idea to focus on the frontal lobe. I am not sure what happens when I focus on a part of my body; it seems to create tension, but I don't know if increases blood-flow (which is what I want, right? I know increased brain activity increases blood-flow, but does it work the other way?). I have heard that the ancient Yogis thought it was necessary to learn how to control their body heat (heat yoga) before lucid dreaming (dream yoga). I wonder if this is related somehow???

[jay dawg]

thats interesting feeble wizard. i heard from leo that we can push or "flex" something that maybe pushes more blood into the brain. im not sure what exactly is happening but i know it personally makes wild start alot faster and makes your whole body feel like a wild when you feel the energy flow through your whole body. you may notice how you feel when a wild moves deeper. you can manually do this too. sounds like what you are unknowingly hinting at. so maybe the more blood/brain activity is what is actually happening.

[Feeble Wizard]

I did some searches and found this topic. I am guessing that you are referring to Leo Volont's third (last) post here? That might be worth trying, but I'm a little worried it might give me an aneurysm !

[jay dawg]

haha. well actually i didnt see that thread, but thanks. im not sure if its dangerous. i doubt it. i would like to know what the heck it is that is actually there making a sensation though. i can do it right now and in like 3 seconds my whole body will feel like im entering a wild. its cool! haha

[Distant Clone]

Here's a quick update. I woke up five or six times last night, every time I woke up was after a dream. I would fall asleep, dream, wake up, record the dream, urinate if needed, and repeat. This was in approximately one hour cycles. Here is the dream journal entry: http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....=18018&start=19 I woke up this morning feeling well rested, but after 6 to 8 hours, I was drained. While recording dream 3, I was so tired I didn't even want to get up to go record it. I almost feel back asleep at the keyboard.

[Feeble Wizard]

Getting back on topic, here is another excellent discussion of this very subject: http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....der=asc&start=0[/url] I think Leo Volont and Nirvana Starseed have interesting ideas about this kind of stuff. Hopefully we don't turn this thread into a links page !