Thread: Instant REM

I just noticed that this thread seems to be saying something fairly important that is not said enough: Dreams do not occur exclusively in REM.

That dreams certainly occur most often during REM, and that our classic idea of a non-lucid dream is one that occurs during REM, do not seem reason enough to ignore the rest of the places they occur, or potentially can occur. But it seems that that is what's happening: both science and the LD community have combined REM and dreams into an inseparable event.

I could be wrong on the science side; there may be lots of NREM dream research going on about which I don't know (Zoth? You lurking out there?). But when skimming these forums it seems clear that REM = Dream is the norm. Also, all the aids are focused on REM, as are the techniques. All this makes sense, I suppose, since during REM is unequivocally the best time for attempting LD's. But still, it would be nice if we could at least have in our collective heads that dreams do not necessarily require REM.

Originally Posted by Sageous

... But it seems that that is what's happening: both science and the LD community have combined REM and dreams into an inseparable event.

I could be wrong on the science side; there may be lots of NREM dream research going on about which I don't know.

A quick Google on "dreaming during NREM" gives just short of 21000 hits, so the concept does have some traction.

One of the hits is a scientific paper "Dreaming During Non-rapid Eye Movement Sleep in the Absence of Prior Rapid Eye Movement Sleep", in which it is found that there is dreaming going on during NREM, but it is less vivid, less remarkable, less frequent, and less pleasant than dreams obtained during REM.

Also, the authors found that NREM sleep in the later part of the night is different from NREM in the earlier part, and that dreams are more likely in the later NREM periods than during the earlier ones.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

A quick Google on "dreaming during NREM" gives just short of 21000 hits, so the concept does have some traction.

For what it's worth, a quick Google on "dreaming during REM" yielded 929,000 hits, which I think shows both the scale of Google, and that REM is still very much the priority. Plus, given the paucity of dream research in the scientific community in general, if REM itself "only" garners under a million hits, then 21,000 implies extremely minimal traction. And yes, I do know how to use search engines... I shouted out to Zoth because he is very much in direct tune with the research.

One of the hits is a scientific paper "Dreaming During Non-rapid Eye Movement Sleep in the Absence of Prior Rapid Eye Movement Sleep", in which it is found that there is dreaming going on during NREM, but it is less vivid, less remarkable, less frequent, and less pleasant than dreams obtained during REM.

Also, the authors found that NREM sleep in the later part of the night is different from NREM in the earlier part, and that dreams are more likely in the later NREM periods than during the earlier ones.

So there is at least some work going on, that's good; thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Sageous

And yes, I do know how to use search engines... I shouted out to Zoth because he is very much in direct tune with the research.

I wasn't patronizing you, although in hindsight I can see how my post unfortunately may have come across rather condescendingly.

My point was simply that dreaming during NREM is a well-known concept. Although apparently still somewhat controversial in certain parts of the dream-research community.

Limiting the search to: +"dreaming during NREM" +"paper" gives a couple of pages of hits, and there appears to be heavy academic representation amongst them. (Also some pdf downloads).

Originally Posted by Sageous

So there is at least some work going on, that's good; thanks for sharing.

My pleasure.

Edit: When searching in Google just now, the post from earlier in the thread, where the paper was first mentioned, was already included. I'm not sure whether to be happy about Googles swiftness, or scared ...