Thread: Why is "everything", but dialating time possible in a lucid dream

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Sageous, let me say first that I have respect for you and mostly agree with what you're saying, but I find your presentation of it to be rather frustrating. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, like I don't think that you're perceiving it this way, but trying to look at this from an objective standpoint it sounds very contradictory. The first thing you do is claim that time doesn't exist, and then you go on to describe how it does. I get what you're trying to say when you say that time doesn't exist, but I think you're going to mislead people more than help them by saying it that way. Just because something is a measurement tool doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that it doesn't have very real boundaries.

Interesting point (maybe that's why I have so much trouble explaining myself? ), but I don't think I'm being contradictory at all, because the map is not the territory.

Any more than I feel that a hammer is a nail, or the word "tree" is a tree, I don't feel that our perception of time is time, no matter how hardwired that perception may be in our brains and genetic memory. In other words, sure, the neural activity requisite to perceive time is real, and I suppose the conscious energy we expend using time to perceive reality also exists to some degree, but neither of those things actually are time, they're just very well established maps of what we've decided to have represent our invented concept of time. I hope that made some sense; if not, it's all I got!

This is where we really start to differ though. Certain experiences and drugs have been shown to consistently alter our perception of the passage of time. I believe what you're trying to say is that because time does not exist as a physical external object it must be illusory. I can't agree with this, because I believe that our perception of time exists as a physical internal object, one that is rigidly defined by our neurochemistry. Of course, when it comes to how each neurochemical state is personally experienced there will always be some subjectivity involved, but I do believe that there are hardwired methods of either lengthening or shortening it which as far as we're concerned would amount to the same thing as changing the external time object, at least in situations like this. I also don't believe that this system can simply be ignored, no matter what you do.

Not so much differing, I think! Believe it or not I am in general agreement with that statement, and have repeatedly agreed with it; hell, I even said it myself a couple of times on this and other threads. Of course we can all slightly alter our perception of "time;" anyone who's been bored or in the midst of an adrenalin rush knows this quite well. But, as I said in the last paragraph, just because there is actual neurochemical activity going on to aid our perception of changes in reality, does that mean time itself is real? I don't think so. Sure, something is real, but it ain't time. So, yes, we all slightly dilate our perception of "time" regularly, but we are only changing the stuff inside our heads, not time itself. Indeed, I think you're confirming once again that time itself is an illusion; now it is just manufactured by our nuerochemistry as well as by our consciousness!

Also, I'm not sure these slight adjustments in perceived time are what Tye means when he discusses time dilation. I believe he (and others on these forums) are looking to dilate time in LD's much more dramatically, to the tune of hours, days, even years in one dream. I don't think neurochemistry would be able to keep up with those kind of changes.

...So maybe we don't differ so much at all? Maybe we're just talking about two different things?

As usual, please be assured that I am speaking respectfully and without sarcasm -- if you detect the opposite, just ignore it...