Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
I'm going to strive on here as I think there are some important issues to be addressed.
This: I think is the crux of the matter. What Jakob has said amounts to a logical fallacy 'this is my experience and so it must be correct and apply to all. Everyone in this thread is guilty of it to some degree.
The trouble is that expectation in dreams not producing the desired effect in a dream does not discount the role of expectation in all dreams.
It would appear that you have no clue what a logical fallacy is. Where have I said that my experience must apply to all? Nowhere. I am also not discounting the role of expectation, but rather stating that my own experience has been similar to Stephen's. I have been a lucid dreamer for a long, long, long time, have done my research on this subject, and have talked to many serious lucid dreamers about topics such as these. From what I have gathered, there are more lucid dreamers who would agree with Stephen's assessment of dream transportation, than yours. That has been my experience with this topic. Perhaps you are an exceptionally talented lucid dreamer who has absolutely no hindrances in his dreams. I can accept that there are such people, but I refuse to accept that this applies to the majority.

And to clairfy: By "serious" lucid dreamers I mean those who don't claim they can astral project, share dreams with others, and communicate with otherworldly beings. They have been lucid dreaming for many many years, they are above the age of 16, and they're not obsessed with Dragonball-Z.

I am specifically talking about lucid dreamers who participated in the old discussion forum on the Lucidity Institute website. I am also talking about associates of Stephen LaBerge, the author of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, who really knows lucid dreaming inside and out. Almost everyone there, yes, almost every single person, had major problems with ground transportation for longer (i repeat: LONGER) walking distances.

We've all had dreams where we've flown, looked down at the sickening height, feared for our safety, and the dream responds according to our shifted expectations and we start to fall rapidly to the ground. But to take expectation and apply it to all experiences in an attempt to disprove it as a force in dream control ignores the possibility of other factors that can account for lack of control where expectation is present, focus, intent, and myriad other psychological mechanics of which we are not aware.
The issue is not "why" it happens. Stephen is simply saying that it has been his experience, and perhaps the experience of people he discussed this with, that ground transportation in dreams can be very problematic. He even himself said that there are a huge number of factors.

I think anyone who hasn't done so already should follow Dinosawr's advice and read Billybob's excellent thread on throwing off the limitations we place on our dreams.
I'll take a look at it. But if it is of the same "substance" as the "Etiquette of Shared Dreaming" article, then I'll pass, thank you.

You apply your experience to everyone. Again you say there are other factors in dreaming... And yet you disregard expectation effect with no attention to other variables in dream control.
Nonsense. I have not disregarded the expectation effect. I am simply saying that expectation is influenced by other factors, which "limit" the effects of expectation.

This statement is self-contradictory, you say you place no limits on your dreams and yet you've been telling us that there are things that cannot be done in dreams.
Your understanding is way off. Here it is, in practice, what I mean by "I place no limits, but the dreams do.":

Me, in a lucid state: YES! Great. This is a lucid dream, I am lying in my bed asleep. None of this is real, I can control everything. This house isn't real, it's all a product of my mind. Blah blah blah, I am able to change everything. YAYYY!!

I wave my hand and attempt to generate a dream character, we'll call him "X". Nothing happens.
I try "calling" him, summoning him. Nothing happens.
I ask a dream character to lead me to him. Nothing happens.
Then I stand infront of a door, and fully expect person X to be in that room. Nothing happens.

There have been cases such as these in my dreams. Whereas in others, I am able to summon a dream character easily, without much effort. That is what I am saying this whole time. In my experience, being a lucid dreamer, reading about lucid dreaming, about dreamer's experiences, and so on and so forth, I was able to conclude, just as Stephen Berlin in this thread, that unless a lucid dreamer is exceptionally talented at this LDing, he will experience many difficulties, distractions, and obstacles.

You say "at least for me it isn't", don't you think you might be missing out on something in this amazing world of lucid dreaming without limits? It's ironic, you say that lucid dreaming 'isn't a virtual world', when that's precisely what lucid dreaming is. It's a virtual world generated by your mind's inner video graphics accelerator, running scripts based schemata (sets of unconscious expectations that you apply to every object in your life, for instance your schemata for a tree say it has green leaves, branches, but doesn't have wheels), and like a simulation or video game, you can play around with the code. In dreams, the action of gravity, and even the dimensionality of the dream space, is entirely dependent on the unconscious expectations you bring from your waking life of the world around you having gravity etc.
Actually, the complete science on how dreams form and how they work, has not been scientifically "confirmed." There is not "one opinion" on dreams, but hundreds, if not thousands. And even in virtual worlds there are limits. Video games have their limits too.

In mental space there is no need for measurements of physical space, what use are miles and metres in a mental representation of a dimensional reality. In fact it could be said in dream navigation that the only true statement we can make is that the dreamer remains stationary while the dream moves around them. Any destination or action is only an act of intent away. As Robert Waggoner was told by a particularly perceptive dream figure in one of his early lucid dreams, 'Mister, in this place, any way is the right way'.
You seemed to have completed missed the point of Stephen's post, and my post as well. Neither of us are saying it is impossible to do task X. We are simply saying that in our experience, and in the experience of many experienced lucid dreamers we associated with, that task X, in this case, ground transportation for longer walking distances, is difficult to achieve.

Not impossible, but difficult nonetheless. Read the very first sentence of Stephen's post. He says: "Navigating your way around in a lucid dream can be tricky."

Not must be tricky, but can be. There is a difference. He is not forcing his opinions/experiences on others, and neither should you.

Best wishes,
Jakob