I've been thinking about this, and I came up with the idea that your sense of time is a part of your dream. While in lucid you can control your dreams, therefore you can control your sense of time. Can someone please let me know if I'm right cuz this is only an idea i came up with.
I would say yes, it is very possible. I had a particular dream before when I found myself in school bored to death, yet I was with a friend, and all I wanted was to forward the time to summer time. As I found myself in lucidity I remember just throwing down the desk in the classroom and rushing out the door... and as I was running out suddenly I remember that the faster I ran the more time changed, all while thinking about it in my head. When I left the school campus I found myself out by the lake and it was summer, and I saw my friends so I ran towards them and enjoyed, partied, out the day.
What I'd like to do next time is just grab a clock and move the times of my hands and see what happens.
Possible, but i'm almost 100% sure that once you stop thinking about the speed time flies by at, it'll revert back to the original...
Can I ask another question, is it possible to control how long a dream lasts?
Well, there are a few techniques to wake up when you want to, and ones to prolong your dream when you feel it's ending. There are numerous threads on that, just search.
well think of it this way. Our own brain is the limit of our imagination. what is a lucid dream - a dream (visualization) in which we are aware. So now that you are currently aware visualize a random situation in brain. How fast is the fastest you can imagine it to be happening? for me its about triple speed of real time. So I just assume that in a lucid dream i can triple the speed of time without missing out parts.
Off course sometimes it feels like its been two weeks instead of three hours but i can never remember the whole dream.
Going to stop you there. It's impossible to dream for 3 hours straight unless you have a medical condition that screws up your REM periods (if such a condition exists).Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
If you reread my post I meant that if i can visualize a dream in triple speed, then three hours is like one hour in real life at a maximum speed
Maybe I'm just being pedantic here, but usually you'll dream for about 5-15 mins.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Perhaps, who am I to place a limit on that? Our subjective experience of time in waking reality changes all the time - maybe in a dream such alterations occur to a larger degree and even intentionally. When people say, oh you're not experiencing 3 hours in a 1 hour, it just feels like that... lol what is the difference? We are talking subjective experience here, we always are.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Generally, the pattern is: no thoughts of time passing and 'being in the moment' = fast passing of time. And paying attention to the passing of time = slow passing of time.
I read some books from LaBerge and he said something about that.
Our brain is very good in "creating memories", that's why sometimes we are in a dream and feel like we had all a life there, it's cause our brain kinda created some memories to make us believe in that.
He proved that the time in Lucid Dreams (he could prove only in the LDs) is the same of the time in real world, how ?
-He took a group of lucid dreamers, and asked them to count from 1 to 10 while awake. The average time the people took to count was 13 seconds (using a chronometer).
-He asked them to do the same in their LDs, making a pre determinated movement with the eyes before and after counting the time in the dreams, this way the people in the laboratory was able to count it in a chronometer in the same time as the LDreamer.
-The result was the same, the people took about 13 seconds to count from 1 to 10.
It proved that the perception of time is the same while awake and during Lucid Dreams.
It's possible to preventing you from awakening doing some techniques like spining your body (this one was discovered by LaBerge)
Some times it may take you to another dream or to a False Awakening, I could use this technique once, and it happened to me.
But it have a limit of course, when your REM period end, you are out of dreams for a while :)
I believe you can enjoy more your time while dreaming, this can make you feel like it lasted more, if you are more aware of everything arround you in the dream, of each object, character and feeling, I'm sure you will feel like the dream lasted more when you awake. If you just fly like crazy without even looking better at the scenario you will feel like you flew only for some seconds (only an example :))
^ The dream time does not always equal the real time. It's ever changing, there is no rule that it'll always be set.
I just cited the LaBerge's experiment, he didn't mention any strange result in his book :)Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
But as I said, he could prove only in Lucid Dreams.
I believe it can happen in Non Lucid Dreams, actually happened to me sometimes :)
For example, in one dream of mine (not lucid) it started to hear a song that I like and in the dream I clearly remember of singin almost all the song. When I woke up, it was my alarm song, but it was in the first 5 seconds OO'
In aaaall my 2 Lucid Dreams (xD) i've never had a perception that was too different from real, but my experience is little, maybe I'm wrong :)
It's possible in Lucids as well, don't worry...
Off course but I was just given an example, I just mean that a dream in which you can remember every second of can only be as fast as your brain can imagine it, common sense really.
I knew someone would bring in that LaBerge result. He didn't prove that time dilation isn't possible. He showed that under typical circumstances, dream time correlates with real time at a 1:1 ratio. Analogically, if I saw you sat next to a piano on many occasions, but I never observed you playing it, it doesn't mean I've evidence that you can't play the piano. You may have merely not divulged your skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubens
He did not give them any instruction to dilate/manipulate time, but to merely observe it. And so the normal passing of dream time correlated with the normal passing of real-world time.
I wouldn't doubt it. I once tried to see how long I could sleep by telling myself "I will go into a coma and will not wake up for 2 days." before going to sleep and during my LD. I slept till about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I really thought I was sleeping for 2 days. So theoretically if u tell yourself u will dream forever then you might be able to convince yourself not to wake up or when you wake up its been years. Idk, interesting topic. Need a lab rat?
Thank you. I far too often see people flat out denounce time dilation (most of them amateurs, at best, at lucid dreaming!) when, truthfully, we just don't have enough information to say with confidence one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
No doubt, from a purely deterministic perspective under current scientific theory, time dilation to the point of making a dream truly feel like weeks or even years seems improbable. However, this is not to say that it is impossible, but merely that if it were possible the current model would need to be updated.
The studies that people cite do little to prove that time dilation cannot occur. I've read up on a few of the studies, and the most frequently quoted one is LaBerge's, but they all never attempt to dilate time, and thus using them as evidence against time dilation is weak. What the studies really act as evidence for is that time in dreams can line up with waking time, not that it must. The fact that no instances of time dilation were recorded is not bizarre, as most dreams are not reported to have felt extremely time dilated, and the number of lucid dreamers and total number of lucid dreams in each of the studies is so small that we would expect there not to be an instance of time dilation within the sample.
I think there is enough anecdotal evidence of time dilation to deserve a study specifically focusing on it. If an unbiased study with a large sample size of both experienced dreamers and LDs is performed where the goal is explicitly to dilate time, and no results are achieved, then feel free to cite that study as counter-evidence. Until then, citing these studies does nothing but stretch their conclusions to try to fit your already biased perspective.
My opinion? Once I hone my lucid dreaming skills further, I plan to explore for myself whether the phenomenon is possible. No doubt, I do hope it exists after all the positive stories I've read, but if I am not able to achieve it, that is perfectly fine.
It changed my mind :D ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I don't deny the existence of time dilation, but the keyword here is ''feel''. One may be able to manipulate their dream world so that 10 minutes feels like 10 hours, but in reality it's still only been 10 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabre2552
We are obviously talking about dream time, not real time =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
I'm aware of that, but there is no evidence to suggest that dream time is different from real time.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
If you feel like 2 hours passed by while you were lucid, then that was 2 hours passing by in DREAM TIME. You can't just check a clock in the dream, so it's all based on feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
That's enough of an evidence once you have long dreams like that.
You say that as if it is a proven fact. Again, there is no evidence to suggest that dream time exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
So, if you have a dream that feels like 2 days, then you sleep for 2 days in real as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
What a logic you have there...
Now you're just being silly. By your argument that states that if something feels like something then it is, I'll list an example that counteracts it:Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Two people have a 2 hour college lecture. Person A enjoys this topic, person B hates it. For person A, the time flies by in what feels like an hour. For person B, the lecture drags on for what feels like a whole day. The reality was that only 2 hours passed.
I see you missed the "you can't check the time for sure in a dream" part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
If you ''can't check the time for sure'', why are you trying to argue that dream time is different from real time? By your own words, you have absolutely no way of knowing such a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
How would you know it then that it's same as real world time? You have no way to know that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubens
Need I say more? And anyway, I never said it was. You're the one saying that it isn't. I'm saying there is no evidence to suggest it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Yes, say more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
If you need a further explanation, your intellectual capabilities do not belong here. Has Wolfwood done his own experimentation and research? No? Then he is under no ground to state such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Of course, i expected you to be so narrow minded to disregard everything other than your opinion. But maybe try to read Wolfwood's post 3-4 more times and you'll realize that it's a very valid point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
It doesn't surprise me that you're female.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Just as i said at least twice before, you can't measure the time in a dream. Therefore what you feel becomes the dream time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
But yeah, i didn't expect more from an air humper kid. :shadewink:
And like I stated in retort: If you can't measure time, your argument is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Facts alone:
1. LaBerges results are irrelevant to answering the question of whether time dilation can occur or not. This is clearly evident based on the methodology. If you believe otherwise, then state how his results imply either for/against.
2. We cannot argue that it is possible or it is not. objectively and conclusively speaking. No experiment have been conducted measuring time dilation during dreams. That is the fact. Thus, no one can say: 'it is possible' or 'it is not'. As it stands, subjective reports indicate it is possible - take that as you will.
Simple. No one is on any grounds to say it is possible or it is not (conclusively and objectively). That is clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Do you people not read?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Then what exactly are you referring to here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
lol... this is what we're all saying. Yet you are arguing against what you're arguing for. Is that not clear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
Dear Graves / littlezoe / Wolfwood
Your ALL wrong, time is a creation that stems from the inner conscious of your mind. So that means its not real, go meditate for a few days and tell me different. Time is malleable.
If you cant agree to disagree and flood a thread with some useless argument, that only draws readers off topic and solves nothing. You actually shouldn't really be giving any definite answer on a contradictory subject anyways.
OP
Depending on what YOU believe its either possible or not possible, I am pretty sure that the conclusion to their argument is relatively similar. "It's possible, it just depends on the Dreamer." Which is also my current belief. I will be back soon with results, going to meditate before sleep and see if it helps.
BahahhahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w5JqQLqqTc
Wish I could give you Rep.
Here is a simple version of what I think; To experience time we must constantly live through it, for instance in a dream you believe you have lived in this dream world for two days, two things could have happened
1) you experienced the entire two days ( for the moment it doesnt matter haw fast it truly went)
2) you experienced the begining events of the first day and the ending events of the second making it seem as if you have dreamed for two days.
In situation two you have not dilated time, you have just filled in the blanks between.
So if situation one was possible to what extent could be manipulate time? Obviously the brain is the limit to our capabilities. This is the tricky part. Looking at the brain as a whole is overwhelming, but looking at each segment of the brain provides us with information showing that the brain is mediocre at truly multitasking. With this in mind I think that it shows that simulating an entire dream at lets say "a regular dream speed" is already quite intensive so having to speed up the simulaation of the dream would demand huge amount of processing. So in theory time dilaltion could be possible up to a reasonable extent. This is all just my opinion so none of this has ever been proven I believe.
I have successfully achieved minor dream distillation. During my dream (link below) there was a point were I my Dream Guide lost me and left me and 40 others in 1 room. I convinced myself I was there for years, me and the others whent insane... Now that I am awake its one of those dreams you don't want to remember because it really was scary... One of the most scary dreams I have ever had.
Feels like weeks ago I had this dream...
My Dream Entry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deatcry15x
The time you experience in a dream is always the same amount in the waking world. The length of a REM is based on physiological factors that you have no control over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deatcry15x
However in retrospect it's possible to create the illusion that more time has passed by creating more scenes in your memory. You can observe how this works through the number of scenes in a television show, a novel, ect.
I like this analogy. I've read a 5-6 hour book that covered around 1000 years, and I got a real, deep sense of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSioType
Heres the thing, you might have felt that you had lived there for 40 years but that doesnt mean you achieved time dilation. For you to truly stretch out your dream you must remember living through it. What you did is you created a memory of living there for forty years. Its not that the same effect hasn't been achieved and what you did is still awesome but it aint time dilation.
1. Biological clocks are still vulnerable to time dilation effects.
2. What our internal clocks record is not 'time' but rather the 'impression of time'. This is also why you can seem to live days or weeks, when you've slept for a few hours. The brain merely 'creates' the 'feeling of passage of time', i.e., if you dreamed you went to a concert and listened to a song, actually listening to it in the dream and fast forwarding through it would be two different things.
Listened to song: Heard every lyric, in real time.
Fast forwarded through it: Brain created recollections of you listening to it, possibly a few lines of the chorus or something.
Not to dust off this thread, but if you can create illusions to represent past time then you can pace this. Theoretically it's possible, scientifically it's impossible.
What a delicious thread.
I definitely experience the feeling of some minor time dilation in my deepest lucid dreams. I believe it can be done big time, it is one of my long long term goals for the time I start mastering this craft.
Id love to experiment on this and document it scientifically if anyone would like to participate Pm me and well throw up a thread with enlisted users.
get at me
I'm reading, but what are you trying to argue then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graves
I never experience controlling my dreams but if I can learn that I will probably choose what to dream and how long will it take to have that dream.
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Time changing... so one of you is arguing time cannot change just the perception of time can. The other one is arguing that the perception of time is the only evidence of time we have ever had... fun fun.
Not here to argue, just to share my opinion.
In lucid dreams it seems like my perception of time is about the same as real time. Going from alarms that go off and another experiment I won't go into.
But in real dreams you will often dream that weeks will go by. I think that it doesn't matter if you perceive weeks or if it actually is weeks. What you perceive is all that matters and if you can perceive time taking longer in a lucid dream then that is Boss.
I once had a dream that I had a childhood friend. This dream inserted memories throughout my entire life, changing my childhood. seeming to take a long time, but seeming like it only was me remembering it. I woke up and started being afraid that it had all been a dream. I found her sleeping on my couch and I was relieved. I then woke up for real and knew that she was gone.
I don't know how to change the time in a dream. But you can think about tons of different memories at one moment, just think of a friend and you will have dozens of memories pop up. If you try to remember fake things in your dream wouldn't they pop up as well? You might just seem to remember the things and not actually dream through it, but after that it just goes to a memory anyways and it will get mixed in with the dream.
So technically speaking, if you were to take those weeks and multiply them by years, centuries even. Then wouldn't you awaken from past memories? Like aging, you never remember instantaneous instances, only feelings and clips. So wouldn't this "theory of life" metaphorically state that a separate life in the dream world could be achieved with its feelings and clips? You only proved 1 side wrong by manipulative passive behavior by sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by BrandonBoss
But you dont want to argue, bring your trolling elsewhere sir :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonBoss
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...llface.svg.png
no no no, I am not saying that it "happens instantaneously." like living through it. I am saying you create a fake memory of something that never happened. It wouldn't be like living through it at all. Almost like Total Recall. Insert memory here. Not changing time.
If you think of a memory right now, you can think of something vague like "last time I went to the dentist" you would remember the thing as a whole, and some graphic sucky highlights. This wouldn't be reliving through it or take any time at all. So what I am saying is think something like that when you are in a dream and you will insert a memory of a long amount of time that could have happened years ago. This wouldn't be changing the time of a current dream, just inserting a memory.
Or when you are in a non LD and you remember "The monkey told me he really wanted those papers at his tree desk by seven perpendiculars." and the entire dream you are trying to fulfill something that didn't even happen in the dream. If you think about it for a second while in the dream you will actually remember the monkey telling you that, but it didn't happen.
Don't hate. Be a dreamer. Remember that the reason we dream is to not have limitations. :)
But the dreams are real. Therefor they are. If you can create memories; that you have agreed is possible already. Then metaphysically it does happen, you have feelings, sight, hearing, intuition, and smell. If you have a memory, its real because you cannot prove it isn't, like something that you think has happened before that actually hasn't and your friends correct you on it. You believe its real because you haven't been told it's not.
You understand what Im getting at?
Time dilation is most definitely possible.
get at me, lets explore!
I guess they would be as real as you expect them to be. Because normally what you expect to happen in a dream, happens.
There is too much uncertainty for people to be speaking with that much certainty, also, believers don't have to be proven their belief is false, they're the ones that have to try and take that step, get it done through experience (first and foremost) and only then attempt to explain it logically. What does it matter if big time dilation is plausible or not if people aren't getting anywhere? :D Let's get to it guys, make it happen !
I actually dont think its possible to control you dream time!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deatcry15x
Here is why
You are a soul with a body that body needs fuel if you get thirsty or hungry in an OBE or LD the dream will fade its simple as that the idea actually of prolonging the dream while the body is in desperate need of fuel is absurd. If thats possible then complete separation of the body without returning should be possible too witch in turn kinda scares me :) Because if you think of it it can be possible too only no proof has been found over this because if you leave for good you never return so you cant share the information about it.