Thread: Stabilization Fundamentals

That's awesome Steph! I haven't been lucid dreaming in a long time, and I think the main thing that discouraged me was the consistency of crashing LD's as soon as I became lucid. I will keep you experience in mind next time I find my self lucid dreaming

Thank you Steph! It really made me feel good to read that nice comment above and feel like I can still help in some way from time to time!

Sensei made a really important point, that once he stopped being concerned about dreams ending too soon (because he got getter at DEILD, etc.), he found that they lasted longer! Expectation is everything....

FryingMan: Expectation is not everything. "Expectation" is a rather ambiguous catch-all thrown around all too frequently. It's an attempt to explain (poorly) the deeper, subtly complex processes that govern dream formation and thus dream control. There have been many, many proof-by-counter-example arguments presented on these forums--by highly reputable sources--all of which have definitively shown, time and again, that the expectation myth is bogus at best and a harmful superstition at worst.

Steph: It seems you've stumbled back upon a wonderful little thing called confidence, and I'm glad you brought it up! ^.^

As a brief thought experiment, I want you to think about all the folks you know who excel at dream control. As many as you want, even just a couple are fine. Think about their personalities, the way they write, present themselves, their similarities... I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them, have one trait in common. Whether you call it confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--these people have it.

To all, I propose a question for your consideration: why are these traits so beneficial? (hint: it's not expectation)


Bonus points if you can point out which authors I've been reading lately. XP

Well for one thing they seem to be rather (overly?) self-assured. What is confidence other than the expectation that whatever you do will work / is right?

Mzzkc, I eagerly await the links to these threads that debunk the "myth."

So, how to you then break a dream "habit" (so as not to use the nasty "E" word)? How do you stop now and for ever, that doing "X" in a dream always results in premature waking, even when you don't consciously think that it will in the dream?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Mzzkc, I eagerly await the links to these threads that debunk the "myth."

As do I, Mzzkc.

Expectation/intention, by whatever name* you attach to it, is a critical aspect of successful LD'ing, and is certainly important in dream control. It obviously isn't everything, and from my perspective comes in a distant third behind self-awareness and memory, respectively, and likely is even less important in dream control than, say, a steady calm, but that does not mean it is not important (though expectation may have a hand in that steady calm). Expectation/intention is instrumental in setting your focus, getting your entire mind on the same playing field in preparation for lucid dreaming, and this preparation will follow you into the dream, directly affecting control. I know it should not be elevated to too much prominence, but it is not a good idea to sell something as fundamental as expectation/intention short.

For me, successful dream control is a byproduct of successful application of the fundamentals -- if you have developed a strong sense of self-awareness, can access your memory, and have developed solid expectations/intentions, you will likely have little trouble controlling your dream when the time comes.

I also have seen very little evidence of this term being "thrown around" these forums. If anything, it is spoken of far too rarely (as are self-awareness and memory), eclipsed regularly by more exciting -- and far less important -- things like techniques, supplements, or devices that promise shortcuts through the necessary work -- like developing strong expectation/intentions. Nor have I seen the term used as a catch-all; indeed, expectation/intention is fairly tight term that pretty much means what it says, and would be a very bad catch-all. Could you cite a couple of cases of where it is a catch-all?

I don't mean to be argumentative here -- this is your thread, after all -- but for a member of your caliber and knowledge to be dismissing expectation/intention as unimportant seems odd.

All apologies, BTW, if this contradicts your tutorial; I haven't read it in years, but I believe -- or at least I had thought -- that, though your direct terms might be slightly different than mine, we are talking about the same thing. I just felt a need to come to the defense of one of the fundamentals; normally I wouldn't have, but your opinion holds a lot of sway on DV, so a little bitchin' seemed appropriate...


*Aren't you simply renaming the basic substance of expectation/intention when you use words like "confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--" to replace it? Aren't confidence, assertiveness, arrogance, etc merely drivers of expectation/intention?

[EDIT: I just read through this ramble and decided it needed a tl;dr: I personally think expectation/intention is fundamental to successful LD'ing (including control), though certainly not everything, and I also think that "confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--" are terms that merely rephrase, or perhaps are couched in, expectation/intention. Perhaps dismissing it as an overused, unimportant term was a bit much? If not, then why?]

thank-you.gifAndres and fogelbise!!

And first of all thanks to you Mzzkc, too!

But please explain a bit more - what did you read - how do you mean it, and which term(s) would you use instead?
To say expectation is everything is going too far, but I can't quite understand your objections as well.
In my perception, it is indeed thrown around often, and can be quite an empty thing, if you don't know, how.

Without confidence in the possibility, it is not exactly easy to expect something "properly".
It's a bit like trying to believe in something, which goes against your knowledge, in the hope of thereby gaining an advantage.
Once you know something, you can not consciously un-know it. You can only change your mind upon new evidence or finding flaws in your thinking about the old.
Expectations based on experience are a bit easier to transform - experience is not exactly knowledge and expectation is not really belief - but I hope, it's understandable, what I want to convey with this analogy.
And then there is intention-setting - what do you think on that term?

I was indeed expecting, that a "flawed state" like blindness could be dreamt through that time, because I read about others having managed that, and believed it possible. So I set the intention of remaining un-flustered and going on dreaming blindly, if it comes to it again.
And now - having done it - I have much more confidence.

When I first used "pretend-remembering" a la Sensei - I had one of the most impressive (for me) successes with summoning.
I did, rather haphazardly, try to convince myself, that I remember, that behind that door was a complete darting room with all and everything needed. I imagined having been there "before".
I opened the door, and was actually quite surprised to really find the room I had visualized behind it.
So - does that surprise mean, I did not really expect it?
Could calling it pretend-remembering be over-thinking it - better just do visualization and call it such as well?

First, a handful of posts from a 30 minutes search session which do a decent job of properly framing the whole expectation myth. Obviously, there are more out there, but if you're really interested I recommend you boot up the googles and give searching a go... In the mean time, I have prepared the following for your consumption.

My own slighted dated explanation, but still relatively valid: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post1537963
Pair that with a lovely neural networking model by sisyphus: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post2073542
Add in a simple counter-example by one of the most gifted lucid dreamers to ever walk the earth: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post1884128
Sprinkle it all with the reasoning behind my apparent angst: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post1171112
Dollop on some alternative models: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...m-control.html
And mix it all together in one big pot: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...m-control.html

It's a bit of a read, so I'll quickly address some other points...

A brief explanation for Sageous: expectation occurs at the cross between memory and focus, but is itself an un-honed tool. It's far too often proclaimed as the "golden hammer" which can solve all problems, which leads to threads that take the following form... [ OP: "I had trouble doing this thing that I definitely expected to happen. What gives?" First responder: "You probably just needed to expect harder and believe more!" OP: "Uh. Thanks...I guess." ]

On confidence/arrogance: people who exhibit confidence or arrogance are skilled at shaping their own belief system without it being unduly influenced by others. Outside of dreams, this provides such people a resiliency against common misconceptions, especially when they have evidence that contradicts such notions. Within the dream itself, these personality traits provide an unrivaled focus which squashes any doubts (which may or may not reside in memory) and allows for purer, stronger control over the formation of the dream. Talking about people with confidence/arrogance is not an attempt to change terminology.

On weird terminology: The seemingly new terms I brought up are simply personality traits that shape the way such people interact with the world, and thus their dreams. Additionally, as far as I'm concerned, the terms expectation and belief may as well be synonymous in the context of lucid dreaming. I do not propose they be called anything else.

I know I didn't hit every point directly, but hopefully that should be enough for awhile? Lol, who am I kidding...

First, thanks for all the links; I'm familiar with most of them already, and it was nice to revisit them... not sure they made your point for you, though!

But that doesn't matter, because I think you might be making mountains from molehills here, Mzzkc. Aside from FryingMan's albeit hyperbolic statement above ("expectation is everything"), with which I've already said I do not agree, and the occasional suggestion of changing expectation to solve a problem, a practice with which I don't generally agree either, I'm not seeing this "expectation myth" you want to quash. I personally have never considered expectation a "golden hammer." Though it may perhaps get a bit too much credit on occasion (ahead of self-awareness and memory), in my time here at DV I haven't noticed a general attitude that expectation is a cure-all. Could you possibly be overreacting?

And agreed; expectation is certainly an un-honed tool. In a sense, it is not a tool at all, but a result of the use of other tools... expectation is not a specific thing you wield, but a helpful side-effect from the wielding of other tools.

Regarding arrogance: Arrogance is not a good trait in LD'ing (or life in general), because it allows you to mask the truth or your own errors with a false sense of superiority or righteousness. I do not understand why you think a personality trait that allows you to lie to yourself is at all helpful. Indeed, I've seen many an arrogant LD'er (myself included, once) suffer diminished dream control because his solution for exercising control in a dream amounted to screaming something like "This is MY dream, and I demand that everything happen MY way!" and then being confused or angry because the dream didn't cooperate.

But you know what? This is your thread, and your opinion should really hold sway here. So I guess you needn't respond, and I will also choose not to continue an argument. I just wanted to make those quick points, though...

Well, well, well - I am unconvinced - or rather none the wiser - and won't change my use of terminology.
And I'm quite surprised, that you treat expectation as a core concept as well - you just recommend to utilize focus:

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

I'm going to try to put it simply: Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention.

Yes, expectation is key, but that expectation, no matter how absolute, is worthless without the proper focus.

This is the - also fattened in the original - punchline of your linked up Unified-Theory-Thread, isn't it?
Besides - I find the term archetype not fortunate - schema is pre-loaded enough in English for my taste - isn't "motive" or "theme" enough?

Basically you talk about what I call the classical crutches - like using the fact, that you saw something similar to what you want to accomplish, performed in fiction or games, and then model your dream-control action on it - like shooting fire-balls from your hands. You have something to visualize and pretend-convince yourself of being able to do in the same way. I would also use "Schema" in German, but it's a word free from any psychoanalytic connotations in it's original meaning.
My air-swimming belongs in that category as well - but to call it archetypical manipulation goes somewhat over the top in my perception.
In combination with dreaming especially these terms are way too ideologically loaded for my comfort.
I would say it's make believe - pretending - using a motive/schema from another context - transposing it.
I pretend, that air behaves like water and then I do, what I know to work in water - voilà - I fly.

Meanwhile I have experimented with other flying techniques - more elegant stuff - it works, but good old swimming never fails me.
It's properly internalized - been using it in my childhood LDs.

But these manoeuvres are crutches in my view, until one is able - with enough experience and crystal clear lucidity - to just do it.
Without any pretend-reasoning or transposition of motives - just knowing that you can do anything and do it. Period. As might add.
No?

Sageous: The author of the post (not the thread) I linked to, Hukif (formerly Walms), was to whom I referred. The dude pumps out an average 13 LDs on a bad night, has crafted an entire alternate, persistent universe complete with self-imposed rules (like perma-death for instance), and that's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The myth still persists, I implore you to be looking out for it as you browse through each section. Admittedly, the core of active users around here is much more informed than previous generations, so this may be less of an issue now than it was in the past. That said, I couldn't leave FryingMan's assertion be, as I see the effects of such ideas harmful in a similar sense as misunderstandings regarding sleep paralysis. Believing expectation to be all there is to dream control is absolutely limiting factor, and I'd like to see everyone reach their full potential.

Hitting your point on arrogance briefly: convincingly lying to one's self is an invaluable tool with applications well beyond dreaming. So long as your are capable of tempering your arrogance, such an ability allows you direct and total control over your own beliefs, attitudes, and schema... Speaking from a personal standpoint, it's essential when performing a number of more complex techniques which shortcut the traditional association-building process. As an example, forcing an associating between lucid dreams and any given goal...like stabilization, for instance...is a great memory shortcut which will allow you to easily recall pretty much anything you'd like within a lucid dream, no matter the state of your recall levels upon becoming lucid.

Also, this is just a thread. I know "proper etiquette" is to leave the educational threads of others alone, but discussion and debate are always a good learning tool (for all involved) when performed respectfully, which I trust all participants here to do. =)

Steph: Use whatever terminology you'd like, I don't think I've tried to make any efforts to change any terminology. On the contrary, I've stated that I currently have no interest in doing so (where dream control is concerned). As far as the crutches you've mentioned and everything else I've described go, they've enabled me to consistently take total control of dream at will ala: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ll-things.html

Thus, I am of the opinion that crutches, as you call them, are way more versatile than one might first assume. Obviously, it takes a bit of creativity to turn a crutch, or a number of crutches, into something much grander, like time-dilation. But after a short while such manipulation becomes a simple, intuitive task (much like riding a bicycle) capable of overcoming all conceivable limitations.

But hey, what do I know? =P

Yeah, what a mountain arose over a little statement, not meant to be taken literally. Maybe you'd prefer to see "expectation is really important," which is what I really meant. In particular, negative expectation can kill LDs. Positive expectation is very important but negative must be avoided at all costs.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Yeah, what a mountain arose over a little statement

I am nothing, if not thorough. XP

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Sageous: The author of the post (not the thread) I linked to, Hukif (formerly Walms), was to whom I referred...

Yeah, I figured that out about an hour later and edited my post to reflect that I understood who you meant, and had no argument about Hukif... however, even his quote did little more than confirm that sometimes expectations don't work, especially when you do the expecting consciously; a statement with which I fully agree, BTW.

Hitting your point on arrogance briefly: convincingly lying to one's self is an invaluable tool with applications well beyond dreaming. So long as your are capable of tempering your arrogance, such an ability allows you direct and total control over your own beliefs, attitudes, and schema...

Now that is a statement!

I'm of a mind that lying to yourself -- and holding yourself above others -- is never a constructive thing to do, no matter how well you've convinced yourself that it is. Arrogance is not, I think, an attitude that can be tempered, because once you temper it, you are no longer arrogant.

For what it's worth, I have personally found that curbing arrogance altogether, or at least trying to do so, has been one of the things that has helped me most profoundly in LD'ing and waking life. Complete honesty with your self during a dream actually aids the building of schema because there is no doubt about the nature of where you are and who you are. Also anecdotally, I have little to no trouble with stabilization without forcing associations, and yet I can find case after case of past LD's that collapsed due to my attempts to force things (due to arrogance) -- indeed, I really don't give stabilization or control a thought anymore, thanks to strong self-awareness in my LD's, mixed of course with memory and your other ingredients of focus and attention. Conversely, I can also say that my false lucids -- NLD's about being lucid -- were invariably couched in some sort of arrogance or assurance that I had to be lucid because I said so (all without a wit of self-awareness or memory).

Also, you attached confidence to arrogance, but that makes no sense either, because you can be fully confident without lying to yourself or holding yourself above others... indeed, confidence comes from honest knowledge, wisdom, and experience, and not from telling yourself you have those things. I'm not sure it was a good idea to conflate the two conditions.

I think, based on my personal experience and knowledge of the art, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you about the value of arrogance; but then you'll just tell yourself that doesn't matter, right (kidding!)? You may have had some success with arrogance personally, Mzzkc, but could that just be you? Is it really a good idea to tell your students to be assholes?

I really don't think anyone should follow my example or do the stuff I do, the way I do it. I provide information and insights I've come across, maybe draw a few conclusions, but through and through (save for a few notable experiments/examples) I've always encouraged self discovery and personal research. If someone wants to become an arrogant jerk-face in the pursuit of better dream control, I think they should be allowed to follow that path. And if they find it's not for them, as you say, overcoming one's arrogance is a great way to improve too! =)

Personally, I value confidence much higher than arrogance, but they're both two sides of the same coin in terms of shaping a solid mental framework. Where confidence bends to compensate the breeze, arrogance is shaped so the breeze passes through it. Yeah, arrogance might have a few holes, and it's surely not as pretty to look at, but it'll hold up just fine methinks. =P

Edit: As a side note, the "forcing" in the technique I mentioned occurs when you are awake. In this way, no effort is required during the dream itself, as you've already set triggers for yourself before falling asleep. It's like setting up a cron job or a reminder on your smart phone, except using basic functions of thought instead of circuits and sofftware.

I'm also yet to come to grips with the lying to yourself aspect of it all - I certainly use it for dream-control, but I keep thinking, there might be a way to re-conceptualize it.

Just think of it as acting, if that helps.

Or the temporary disbelief required to enjoy a work of fiction.

Expectation sucks.

These are nice tips - thank you!
I esp. like the actor thing - sounds like a great crutch to try out!
You know all is there, that is needed for the scene, since you are the actor and you are "on" - I like it!

See everyone, some good can come from my occasional tirades. =P

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but this thread has a fun conversation on the topic (between The Cusp and a newby). Figured anyone who followed the most recent conversation might want to give it a looksie.

Originally Posted by TheCusp

Everyone is always in complete control of their dreams. I've always maintained this. The trick is to realize it, and observe how it works. The dream responds to your focused attention, and if you want to call the focus of that attention an expectation, then that is essentially correct.

Yes, as I "expected" (haha), it's basically a matter of semantics. "Focused attention," "expectation," "tomay-to", "tomah-to".

You know what, The Cusp?
I think I just started out thinking in archetypal form as well:

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post2106905

Well - I'd rather say, I changed my conception of archetypal, semantically and how finegrainedly one can view it.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Yes, as I "expected" (haha), it's basically a matter of semantics. "Focused attention," "expectation," "tomay-to", "tomah-to".

I never cease to be amazed by the way people dismiss semantics as trivial compared to some posited truth 'beyond words'. * The differance between 'attention' and 'expectation' is crucial in dreaming, which is so much mediated by our schemata.

*not a personal attack on you! FryingMan