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Hello everyone,
I read the previous threads on this subject but couldn't find my answer. Those who have read the book, what is your opinion now after you've had LDs and have tried some of what he says in the book? Curious, because, I plan to read it soon.
Thanks :)
The book terrified me, it really did :shock:
I mean, its an interesting read, but its kinda bizarre if you've never read a carlos book before
Thanks for the reply. hmm, I've never read any Carlos books before and the only reason that I picked it up was because of what Man Of Shred said in the dreamsharing thread, plus since it's about dreaming, I was interested to see what Carlos wrote about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Anyone else? :)
Haven't quite made it up to AoD yet, but I"m working my way through the Castaneda books. I see why Juroara said it's terrifying... this shamanism stuff is filled with some really crazy magic. Inorganic Beings that infiltrate your dreams and can steal your soul etc.
The way I look at it, those old-school shamans became masters of lucid dreaming and other spiritual practices, but it was a very (very) pre-scientific time, and the still very primitive human race at that time had little understanding about things, so they took much of what happened in the dreaming world at face value.
Imagine if you literally believed everything that happened in your dreams was happening for real... it would be terrifying. That's what I think is going on here... they just simply didn't realize that dreams communicate in symbolic ways and took everything literally.
I read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming at the same time I was reading Castaneda's first (Teachings of Don Juan), and as long as you understand dreaming in a scientific framework - basically that it communicates your fears and desires in symbolic language - then you know you can safely discard the scary stuff from the shamanism.
I do find all the magic stuff fascinating, but to me the real power of don Juan's teachings lies in the Way of the Warrior and his other philosophies designed to allow a person to live 'impeccably'. It's basically the power of positive thinking and living your life in a strong way so you minimize any negative energy, plus gradually realizing that the world is not exactly as we imagine it to be (same as Buddhist principles).
I highly recommend Castaneda to anyone interested in lucid dreaming, but don't be side-tracked by the frightening magic stuff.
I also think a lot of it is deliberately made frightening because, think about it... these were medicine men... witch doctors. They were SUPPOSED to be frightening, to be not quite human. They lived between the world of life and death, and it's from the world of death that they drew their powers. Ordinary people were meant to be afraid of the witch doctors, but to be in awe of their power. If they weren't frightening but had nice friendly bedside manner like today's doctors are supposed to, nobody would believe they really had any power.
I like a lot of what Darkmatters said regarding Castaneda's works. Particularly his appreciation of Warrior aspects of the Toltec Philosophy/Tradition.
However, I will disagree - respectfully - with the analysis of "the magic stuff."
I am a student of the Toltec Tradition. My Teacher was a student himself of Castaneda.
What Castaneda describes in "The Art of Dreaming" is very real, though it may present itself differently to each individual.
In terms of being "frightening" you must remember that "Fear is the first enemy of a Man of Knowledge."
"The Art of Dreaming" was written after "The Teachings of Don Juan - A Yaqui Way of Knowledge." Read that first and it will help you with some of the fundamental aspects of Toltec Wisdom.
If you find Castaneda too hard to follow, try Don Miguel Ruiz. Ruiz was also a Student of Castaneda's but his writing style is easier to absorb for some folks.
Thank you both for your replies. I plan to read this with an open mind to see what they do/did and just for fun really :)
Well, earlier in my life I was very impressed by Castaneda's books, and inorganic beings were almost in every dream :D. But now I am much more skeptical to this, because while it seems that Carlos was indeed lucid dreamer, the stuff he decribes in his books is his own interpretation of the his experience. And dreams are eager to show you what you expect.
I have read a couple of books by him. Really enjoyed them.
However there were solely about Don Juan and his teachings,
not about dreaming. This one sounds interesting, though, I
might get it soon :)
Make no mistake, all his books are about dreaming. Although the art he terms "dreaming" (the counterpart to stalking) can be misleading.
My current understanding of his work is that life really is a dream. This may not be obvious from the way he describes it, but I believe what he terms the "tonal" is just the sum total of your personal archetypal structures.
While I do recommend all his books highly, I do have to admit that they messed me up for years. What they did was grant me lucid moments in my waking life, but they did not grant me control. Anyone who hasn't mastered dream control knows that sometime lucid dreams go good, and other times they can go very badly. You're always in control, but if you don't know what you're doing and don't have the discipline to keep your attention focused properly, you can really screw shit up. Imagine your worst lucid disaster in RL. This is what most spiritual traditions warn of when they say you need discipline.
Sure I could pull off some awesome control in RL, but just as often it would blow up in my face.
You know it is funny I spent much of the past 25 years chasing after Carlos Castaneda and "the myth he held in his hands." I didn't even know anything about lucid dreaming until 15 years ago and the first time I actually bothered looking into OBEs and Astral travel was last fall! The point is, I got CC's view first, then the whole lucid dream/OBE/Astral travel bit later on.
My conclusion is that CC was a lucid dreamer who also used a bunch of poetic license to spin his tales. They truly are "tales of power", but also they are all about trickery (something Castaneda himself would gladly admit). So basically he did everything that a lucid dreamer would do, but he (and of course his character Don Juan) maintained that these experiences could be actually manifested in reality, not just "in your head." The world view he spins cannot be understood by reading just one book, you have to digest them all from start to finish, and then a very complex world view (cognitive system) evolves. Is it real? Does it have power? Maybe. I was a practitioner for years, but now I've decided to branch off on my own. Especially towards the end of his life (he died in 1998) the group of people around him became decidedly cultish in character and 4 of the main women that surrounded him, Florinda Donner Grau, Taisha Abelar, Kylie Lundal, and Talia Bey almost instantly disappeared. Carol Tiggs (the Nagual Woman, CC's female counterpart) disappeared some months later. None of these people have been heard from since in public, but the bones of Patricia Partin, AKA The Blue Scout (a "being" you'll read about if you read this book) were found in Death Valley in 2003. If that doesn't sound like a cult, I'm not sure what does!
Concerning this book, it is one of his darkest IMO. It is almost wholly about dreaming, but again, it is something far beyond simple mind stuff. Worth a read, but don't expect to learn anything in terms of techniques per se. His best works include Journey to Ixlan, The Fire From Within, The Power of Silence, and his most recent work, published just before his death, The Active Side of Infinity.
Read and enjoy, but bring along a bag of salt for the ride!
I agree, Journey to Ixtlan is one of the best I've seen yet. It's the third in the series, and it basically re-states the material from the first two books but without the hallucinogenic drug aspect, which was very prevalent in the first two. He basically starts Journey by saying that he got too pulled into the hallucinogens and that it was a mistake, though it did open him up to the shaman's world.
It's an amazing read, and has a lot about lucid dreaming in it, though the only practical thing about LDing is the technique of looking at your hands in a dream to go lucid, and then shifting your attention from object to object in the dream so it doesn't destabilize as it will if you look at one thing too long. That said, while there isn't much of a practical technical value about how to achieve lucids... it's an amazing read!! And a great place to start reading Castaneda.
Please don't confuse Carlos Castaneda with a Shaman. He was a Sorcerer. Very different beastie altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
Castaneda used Power and Knowledge for his own benefit. A Shaman does so for The People.
The paths are the same, but the Paths are nearly antithetical.
Ah! Thanks, I didn't realize that. Now it makes a bit more sense.
:goodjob2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
I think the best book in terms of explaining Castaneda's overall "cosmology" was the fire from within. But once you've gotten through all the books, the real gem is The Art Of Dreaming.
I guess The AOD could be scary indeed. It does, after all, undermine almost all of our social training and impulses. And once you strip these away, you are left facing infinity; something that the average person would find terrifying. People in general are very comfortable with the the world that they have been taught to believe is "real" since day one. Even if they don't like there life, or their social status, it is all they know, and they will usually fight tooth and nail to protect it; or to protect what they think of as their "sanity"
It is like a child that has grown up with abusive parent; if you forcefully take that child away from the situation, they will scream and cry. Not because they like their abusive parents, but because it is the only world that they know; it is the only way of life that they know.
The truth of the matter is that most people don't want to know what they really are, or what the nature of reality is. They just want to "get by;" to live out their lives as comfortably as they can with there heads stuck in the sand like ostriches.
This is completely random but, I haven't seen you in a while Larther, how you doin? :D
Hi Juroara -
I am well. I've been a bit busy these days, but all is well. And I hope that all's well with you too! Sweet dreams!
People i'm interested in reading CC's books, but i'm not sure where to start and i'm not very fluent in english so it may be hard to understand the "scientific/difficult" words. A list of books from the 1st to the last would be great. Should i read them in a special order?
Thanks
Start with Journey to ixtlan.
I second what MOSH said. Start with Journey to Ixtlan.
Here's a list in order of the books dealing with don Juan's teachings (the good stuff):
1. Teachings of Don Juan
2. Separate Reality
3. Journey to Ixtlan
4. Tales of Power
5. The Second Ring of Power
6. The Eagle's Gift
7. The Fire From Within
8. The Power of Silence
9. The Art of Dreaming
11. The Active Side of Infinity
He wrote a couple more books dealing with the same basic stuff, but these are considered the Don Juan series. I'm now working on The Eagle's Gift.
More about reading his works; you will find distinct periods of his writings - the favor and mood changes. There are two basic periods in his writings, the left side teachings and the right side ones. The right side has to do with everyday awareness or what he calls the Tonal. When Don Juan taught him from this perspective CC caught a certain aspect of the teachings, one that focused on every life directly, but the unknown side was only alluded to or much more hidden. The left side teachings focused on the Nagual, or the unknown aspect of awareness. This of course is the domain of dreaming, inorganic beings, etc.
CC realized by around the time he wrote The Eagle's Gift (mid '80s) that DJ had been shifting his awareness via a "slap" given to his back. This slap was in fact a slap to CC's energy body, directly on a point he called "the assemblage point", or the point at which perception is assembled. If this is altered in position, then perception is changed, hence the slap. Over time the point returns to it's original spot and so the person goes back into normal awareness. Another slap could also return the person back to normal awarenss. One strange thing - once back in everyday life the person would forget everything that happen "on the left side". In this way DJ taught CC from both sides about everything so CC had two memories of the events, one he wrote in his notes and one he recorded in the memory of his altered states.
And so the books show a clear progression. Here is the breakdown of those periods:
1. The beginning teachings for the right side. Lots of drugs employed and Indian folklore which falls away in subsequent books. DJ works mostly alone in these books and is a tough fellow, not friendly, but awesome.
The Teachings of Don Juan
A Separate Reality
2. The right side teachings continued, especially about dealing with behavior to become a warrior of freedom. Dreaming is introduced. I'd all this the core teachings for the right side.
Journey to Ixlan*
3. Essentially a continuance of the former book, but focusing more on the manipulation of awareness. The mood of DJ and another sorcerer companion, Don Genaro, is very light and funny - a stark contrast from the solitary and serious sorcerer of the first three.
Tales of Power*
4. Transition period in which Don Juan has left the world. At this point CC didn't realize that DJ had lots of compatriots because he only knew those people in his left side, so he mostly forgot them all. In this book CC is confused and frightened because he doesn't know what to do. In these books he reunites with the "lost apprentices" and begins to discover the left side teachings, mostly through the help of a female warrior, La Gorda.
The Second Ring of Power
The Eagle's Gift
5. The beginning of the left side teachings. This book is the basic core of those teachings focusing highly on the mastery of awareness.
The Fire From Within*
6. More left side teachings, in particular stalking. Here we find out many more details of DJ's upbringing as a sorcerer and his teacher the Nagual Julian.
The Power of Silence*
7. Speaking of silence, this book took 5 years for him to publish. Here we meet a whole new Carlos, a dreamer, and his new band of comrades, Taisha Abelar, Florinda Donner Grau, and the mysterious Nagual Woman, Carol Tiggs. The Blue Scout, a being CC frees from the inorganic being's world is introduced here as well. And finally, we get to see an intimate look at the Death Defier, a being thousands of years old. This book is the closest one to SciFi of any of his works - way out there.
The Art of Dreaming
8. A last footnote of DJ's teachings focusing around the method known as The Recapitulation. The resulting formative stories make up the bulk of this book. We also learn about "the fliers" a group of inorganic beings who took over the human race mentally thousands of years ago - and how CC successfully beats them to become a formless warrior.
The Active Side of Infinity*
The books marked with * are ones I recommend you read and in the order given. You may also want to read Taisha Abelar's book, The Sorcerer's Crossing and Florinda Donner Grau's, Being in Dreaming, to get their perspectives on Don Juan's world.
All good reads, but I wouldn't take them at face value. Then again, how can you take anything out of this world at face value? It is a shifting world where "facts" constantly change.