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There are adds all over this site for quantum jumping. Supposedly it goes beyond, and is much more enlightening than lucid dreaming. It seems pretty interesting, but is it BS, like a placebo? If you believe it exists, your mind will create what it perceives quantum jumping to be, instead of ACTUALLY meeting other dimensional versions of yourself?
If anyone has tried it, with or without success, let me know what's up because I'd like to look into it further.
Let's compare.
Lucid dreaming is a scientifically proven phenomenon that has been recorded for thousands of years, has proven benefits, and is free.
Quantum jumping is a totally unproven "secret technique" invented by Burt Goldman sometime in the last decade or so, which is quite obviously a ploy to sell CDs for over one hundred dollars.
In short, stay away from that stuff.
It's just astral projection, and all of the info on those disks can be found in the beyond dreaming forum for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by bewareofit1505
Advice for anything of that sort: if they're asking you to buy or pay for anything, avoid it, or at least find a free way to research it, because if it is legitimate, there will be someone out there willing to help for free.
And astral projection is simply lucid dreaming for those who don't think lucid dreaming is cool enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
wow, can't believe this was updated today and I didn't even look before starting the same thread. oops.
But some people say that Astral Projection may be something similar to but higher up spiritually than a lucid dream, or at least a greater form of it.
Or... lucid dreaming could simply be astral projection for those teenagers who think they understand the very fundamentals of existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
I've not heard of many teens astral projecting, typically adults that hate their lives and saw on the inter that Astral Projection can get you "millonz of dollors".
lol! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
My grandpa reads books and he told my dad about them and when I told my dad about OBEs he told me his father told him it was dangerous and that it was called astral projection and that eveil spirits would pull your in their demension for ever or something, lol!
yea, dangerousness is a matter of debate. But if it's a lucid, it would just be a matter or expecting danger or not.
Better yet:Quote:
Originally Posted by Supernova
If it has "quantum" or any other reference to quantum mechanics, then it's most likely a scam.
agreed. quantum mechanics has nothing to do with dreams.
what are quantum mechanics about?
Quantum mechanics is the part of physics dealing with matter at atomic and subatomic levels.
It's hip nowadays to randomly attach 'quantum' to anything paranormal, as if it provided any extra credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Ah, ok... I still don't understand, lol! Don't know what subatomic is but it's okay, I get the point :)
Well, lucid dreaming is not necesarily paranormal...
I think a better word it esoteric. And subatomic means the smaller parts that make up atoms. like protons and quirks.
:roll:Have to say, I love the inference that its immature "teenagers" who choose to ignore the occult and instead, with little regard for common sense and logic, base their opinions on scientific knowledge and evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by blade5x
:D
Science nor occultism can prove or truly understand all of reality.
Yawn. You would try to put it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
How much of reality can science prove compared to occultism?
Thats a better question.
Last I checked the earth wasn't flat and your internet connection wasn't powered by the astral plane :)
Well the way I wee it, occultism is a science. There is trial and error, experimentations, and (reportedly) discoveries and breakthroughs. Occultism is just the oogie-boogie stuff mainstream science has no time for, and thus it is not very advanced. If people cared enough about it, I'm sure we'd be to the point by now where you could chat online with ghosts, or at least have proof they don't exist.
And let us not forget. Anything can be used to understand reality, but only if everyone believes it, for a reality is nothing more than a collective truth.
It's impossible to prove the non-existence of ghosts, or any other supernatural concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
ok then, a mass consensus that they don't exist.
That is the current consensus, at least among scientists and specialists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Not really. Most people don't believe that, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that ghosts don't exist. The consensus would be "unsure".
Incase anyone is interested ... it's the torrent file for goldmans quantum jumping discs and such.
edit: Link removed...please do not post links to torrents -nina
Yes really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
"We can't prove 100% the earth won't be invaded by Wraith aliens tomorrow therefore the general consensus about the veracity of the claim should be 'unsure'." That's not a sound argument. Until a theory has some kind of evidence and reasoning supporting it, it's all just assumptions based on nothing, imagination as far as anyone knows. It's "Innocent until proven guilty", or in this case, imaginary until proven real.
And that's the current consensus about paranormal theories, like ghosts: they're not real.
Going back to your previous statement that "occultism" is a science. Occultism is actually defined as pseudo-science, and the reason for that is because it tries to look like science but by-passes fundamental scientific principles.
Lucid dreaming is considered a pseudo-science, dude
Thank god we actually have proof that lucid dreaming exists...I cannot imagine the amount of skeptical people we would get who have never had a lucid dream and do not think it is even possible. Really, it's only a matter of time until we have proof of some of these other things that people are so quick to dismiss. However, this quantum jumping does seem like a load of bull, just trying to make a buck off gullible people...and I honestly don't even have a clue what it's about...but I'm filing it away under the same category as "yogic flying"...heh.
*agreed*
By the way, anyone here ever heard of the "Unexplainable Store"? They sell binaural tracks that supposedly work 100% of the time. On a huge variety of subjects too.
How inexplicably convenient...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
yea, wonder if anyone's boot leggin' those to tryout?
Not it isn't. Some people may attach unnecessary pseudo-scientific practices and rituals to lucid dreaming, but that doesn't mean they're necessary for the act or it's study.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Lucid dreaming may have been fringe, but it was never supernatural.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Agreed.
And while Astral Projection might be real, it has no significantly better chance than Santa Clause, unicorns, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
For example, you can't even construct a theory about Astral Projection without assuming the existence of souls, and currently there is no evidence for souls.
In fact, souls not only lack empirical support, they don't even have explanatory power. I challenge anyone here to provide any demonstrable phenomenon that is better explained by souls than by a materialistic alternative.
Until such a phenomenon can be identified, the existence of souls, much less ideas like AP, is pure speculation.
So, if AP is a guess, then it has about as much chance of being correct as you have of scoring a regulation basket by throwing a basketball in a pitch-black room, when you aren't even sure if there's a basketball goal in the room to begin with.
Well, if you believe in an after life than souls are most likely to exist since our body obviously stays on earth when we die.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
I'm pretty spektical about astral projection though and I'm not sure about souls too. I try staying neutral about things but I like thinking there is an afterlife so I guess we do might need a soul for such a thing.
I dont know guys, I downloaded the 6 cd's set yesterday, and I will give it a try and post results here, who ever wishes to download those cd's instead of paying for them just hit me up on private message. I really dont care if it works for me or not, since I have nothing to loose i will give it a try and see what it does.
I wouldnt buy those cd's thought, sometimes internet can be a scary place when money is involved.
If it works, you could make a tutorial on Quantum Jumping for everyone on DV to learn how to do it (well, if you have the time, and if it works :))Quote:
Originally Posted by L
Sure, but one's desire that there be an afterlife ought not to influence their belief in such a thing. I would like it if there were a million dollar balance on my checking account, but it would be dangerous if I allowed myself to believe there were without evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Likewise, look at the 9/11 hijackers as evidence of just how dangerous belief in an after-life can be.
Believing in an afterlife might have been dangerous during the 9/11 but that's 'cause they were hardcore religious believers. I'm an agnostic and wouldn't do anything like sacrificing myself for a God or attack people because I judge their religion. I'm simply sane and want to live the longest I can. However, believing in an afterlife helps me not being scared of death and so I can react better when it comes (to maybe survive and if I die, not to be so scared, to just be curious about what's on the other side). And it also makes it easier for when other people die. It's not as sad when you believe in an afterlife. I would also make no bad decisions because of my belief in an afterlife since I'm an agnostic after all and I don't 100% believe in an afterlife, I only use that belief to help me in everyday life. (if you get what I mean.)Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
And also, every one has similar brains (maybe the same) but everyone has different personalities. I'm not saying it's a proof, I'm just looking for reasons why souls would exist. I myself am neutral to that belief like to any other belief. Everyone's brain has different information and experiences stored in it with diferent teachings and stuff and that might be why people are so different... I don't know.
Where is the line between "safe" superstition and "dangerous" superstition? When is it ever safe to have an incorrect belief about your reality? All incorrect beliefs have the potential to lead to incorrect decisions. This includes both practical decisions and ethical ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
I doubt this. I think that, rather than being more prepared, you will be less prepared. For one thing, it seems to me that you don't actually believe in an afterlife at all; you are just telling yourself you believe it. (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from your posts.) So to me, it seems that when the time comes, you will suddenly find your never-all-that-sincere belief abandoning you, and you're suddenly in the position of having to come to terms with death in a way that you never have, before.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
A leap of faith is not something that can be made once and for all; you have to go on making that leap over and over again, every day, every hour, every minute of your life. That's not noble, that's denial. Coming to terms with death is a good deal more difficult than just pushing the question away, but once you have faced it honestly, you don't have to keep doing it over and over again.
In the words of Samuel Clements (Mark Twain): "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."
you've brought good arguments and yes you've understood well when I you said "For one thing, it seems to me that you don't actually believe in an afterlife at all; you are just telling yourself you believe it."Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
Well, I do not believe in anything because I am an Apathical Agnostic and I believe that I shouldn't believe in anything until I die and that then I will know what to believe in if there is an afterlife. I believe, that during my life, I should try my best to become the best person I can be and be the happiest I can be (and blahblahblah) but then I make myself believe things that help me in everyday life which I try not to believe 'cause I know (or thing)(since I'm an agnostic) that these believes are just possibilities and that they might as well be false.
Now, you are right, I would find it horrible if there was no afterlife so I make myself believe. But now I remember that my belief in an afterlife isn't one of the ones I'm trying not to believe in (I get very comfused with my believes, lol) So, starting back to point 1 (about my belief on afterlife), it is the only belief I allow myslef to have because it helps me not being scared and that if there isn't an afterlife, then, I will never know and never care. I see much more benefits to believing in it than not so I strongly make myself believe in it to the point that I actually believe in it (but I just know that I have no proof and it might not be true, but I keep in my mind that its true 'cause I think its good for me to believe in it) And I don't know what will happen when I am to be killed but not too long ago, I had a very weird dream in which I died. My first thoughts were "Oh shit! I'm dead! I died so young... Oh well, I get to see what happens when you die and then I was filled with a very weird feeling that covered my whole body and then I thought it was very cool and I stayed vigilant to see what next would happen. Now that all this was hapening, I was sure that there was an afterlife. I was expecting to appear in an afterlife place or something but instead a vivid image of paper, ink and a feather appeared. I then realized I was in my bed having a sleep paralisis. I also realized I had been awake since I had felt that very weird feeling (which was the SP itself) which I had thought was a proof of my Death. So technickly, I've sincerly thought I was dead while awake and conscious, (I remember being very conscious, just not lucid) So, I guess that my reaction at that moment would probably be my reaction if I did die: acceptance and curiosity. I still don't know how I would react before I died though, especially if it was long.... Sorry for my comfusing explanations.
Well, I do appreciate that you took my thoughts seriously.
I rather doubt that you were truly "awake and conscious" in the situation you describe. If you had been "conscious" as it is traditionally defined, you would have been aware of where you were and that you were not dead. So, it seems that you were unconscious by definition. And anyone who has heard their alarm clock playing in a dream, or tried to answer it like a telephone knows that in the border between sleep and wakefulness, all bets are off. Of course, that doesn't mean you won't view your death with optimism and curiosity when it is imminent, but I hardly find it to be persuasive evidence that you will. Our emotional reactions to stimuli are seriously distorted in dreams.
You are right, of course, when you say that if there is no afterlife, you'll never know it. But that was never what concerned me. Rather, I suspected that when the chips were down, and death was really staring you right in the face, you would not be able to suspend your disbelief any longer, and you would never have come to terms with the possibility that your stream of consiousness might simply end.
Why wait. Science has proven, with a huge degree of certainty, that the consciousness resides within the brain. There is a wealth of evidence out there. Its just a bit inconvenient for the quantum leapers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
Oh boy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
Agree with all of the above.
It's also worth adding that as far as OBE/Astral Projection goes, there is also scientifically viable explanations of what is occouring.
Objective rather than subjective reality.
Occams razor applies.
Yes consciousness resides within the brain, what's your point? I think this is a pretty widely accepted fact. Whether you believe that conscious is only the brain, or something connected to the body through a part of the brain...it still resides in the brain. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. If you're trying to say that science has proven that psychic phenomena doesn't exist... then that's news to me...and...citations plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
God damn, you guys have been posting a lot. Well in response to this post, I see no evidence that lucid dreaming works at all. I myself have had lucid dreams, but I can't prove it. There are techniques for inducing them, but a person could just as easily just say it worked for them when it failed. Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Consciousness does reside in the brain. "Consciousness is not a thing in the brain information is just poured into. It's the struggle of different circuit to hold the stage for a second." And that is from a very high up scientist talking to discovery magazine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
Occultism and flat earth theory???? What? Who that follows occultism, believes that?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
We are orders of magnitude above ghost hunting.
It's not even a continuum, really, it's simply three separate categories:
Hard Science
Includes only those sciences that include both empirical evidence and explanatory power. Although there are debates, and areas of uncertainty, the dominant theories in these fields enjoy the strongest support from evidence, and the greatest ability to explain the phenomena they are invoked to explain, relative to rival theories.
This Category includes Quantum Mechanics, Evolution, and some relevant aspects of psychology, such as Behavioral Psychology, Neurology, and Lucid Dreaming. (In experiments, subjects have been able to communicate with scientists from dream states through patterns of agreed-upon eye movement.)
Humanistic Science
The fields do not admit to any empirical evidence to which we could find access at this time. Therefore, they rely only upon explanatory power for their standing. Debates are more frequent, and not always productive, and sometimes a field can be dominated by several competing rival theories. Dominant theories in these fields can only keep their position by doing a better job of explaining the phenomena they are invoked to explain, relative to rival theories.
This Category includes Cognitive Psychology, Freudian, Jungian, and Adlerian schools of thought, Sociology, Person-Centered Theory, and Transactional Analysis.
It is important to realize that explanatory power is very important, and so the dominant theories in these fields can still be safely regarded as correct, especially when they have no powerful rival theories.
Non-Science
This includes anything from pseudoscience (the application of scientific principles in an incorrect or incomplete way that yields unreliable results) or speculations such as the occult. Theories in this field are supported by individuals who either do not respect the principles of science, or have an imperfect understanding of those principles. As a rule, they are not supported by significant amounts of empirical evidence, and they do not succeed at explaining any phenomena better than alternative explanations. Often, they do not explain any observed phenomena at all, merely adding hypothetical mysteries without offering solutions to any existing ones.
This Category includes Ghost Hunting, Astrology, Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Astral Projection, and significant portions of Religious Apologetics.
As you can see, Lucid Dreaming and Ghost hunting don't even play in the same league.
We know awareness is possible, after all we're aware all the time in waking life, so it's not a stretch for a non-lucid dreamer to accept the possibility of retaining awareness in dreaming time. And also lucid dreaming has been proved in experiments where subjects were told to blink their eyes in a certain pattern once lucid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
But that's quite irrelevant, because lucid dreaming is on a whole different level than any pseudo-science. "I think therefore I am", I don't think how this relates to lucid dreaming needs to be explained.
That kind of proof from experience doesn't work if you're making a claim about the nature of the experience, which is commonly done in paranormal claims:
"I saw something I can't explain, therefore that something must be [insert paranormal concept]".
I know what you mean when you say that when we are between sleep and awake, we're normally not completly sane and that we are unconscious and stuff but me, when I'm conscious or lucid before waking up, I don't feel all drowsy and still asleep. I can just litteraly jump out of my bed and it seems for me that I have been awake for a long time. This time, it was the case. Since it was my first time in an SP I tried to see how long it would take if I tried to move. I lasted around 1 minute but it seemed longer than that. Then I got out of bed to tell someone but realized everyone was sleeping and no one would care anyways so I went back to bed but was way too awake to fall back to sleep so I just waited.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
But still, you're probably right that it's no proof I would react that way but it's my natural way to act to every day life problems. When its done, its done so if I was dead and there was nothing to do other than that, I would probably be curious about what would happen next. It doesn't mean its what's gonna happen.
And yeah, I guess everyone relativly goes crazy when they know there gonna die but I don't think I would stop believing. Actually, (still after that weird death dream) I felt like it had been a premonatary dream (or whatver its called) telling me I would die. It was a snow day (meaning there was no bus transportation to the school to the fact there was too much snow and ice on the roads or something and my dad would drive me to school) and I sort of had the feeling I would die during that trip but it wasn't (100%), just a feeling and during the trip, I couldn't figure out if I wanted to die or not, 'cause I was curious to see what hapened after you died and since I had already accepted to be dead, it was to me not so bad if I did die, I had accepted that. But then I told myself I was being suicidal and made sure I was ready to jump out of the car if we got into a car accident (lol, I'm such a freak ain't I but that dream had felt so weird, I can't explain it) Then, after the ride, this paranoiac thought completly left me and then at night I had a small disapointment to the fact I wasn't dead and would still need to wait a long time before knowing what hapened after... Which has completly left me too. This dream had been a very weird experience, lol. My point is, the feeling I had thinking I might die was still curiosity which I might feel in a real death moment but then, I would know for sure that I'm gonna die and so I'd probably freak otu depending what happens... These are all theories, I can't prove what my future reactions will be.
And anyways, if my belief left me, I wouldn't feel horrible for so long unless my death takes more than an hour which I doubt unless I die from old age but then I would get lots of time to get ready to the fact of death.
Fair enough. I remain somewhat dubious, but certainly you should know yourself better than I would.
lol, sorry for arguing for such a stupid thing... It doesn't very occur to me that I'm arguing, I just do even with the stupidest ones... lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
What was the point of all this? Oh yeah, if souls existed and why believing in them was dangerous if they didn't!
I don't know what else to say... :P
testing something...
EDIT: Test failed...:(
what did you test? :uhm:Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
My sig.
EDIT: Hurray!!!
So far I enjoyed listening to his first CD. The knowledge he is sharing is pretty much usefull and pretty interesting for open minded people. He shares some experiences and techniques which put you into trance and the Alpha state. He guides you on how to meet your doppelganger and establish a connection with it. I will post my next results once I am done listening to the 2nd CD.
Nice sign. Are they tasks you've completed?Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
How many CDs are there in all?Quote:
Originally Posted by L
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
What were they?Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
You went on a planet and shipshafted into a dog?
(1) Are you suggesting that science hasn't investigated psychic phenomenon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
(2) "Connected" and "resides" isn't the same thing now, is it?
Dreaming and REM sleep, including lucid dreaming, is very much a part of mainstream science. Lucid dreaming has indeed been tested in scientific conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
In addition, anecdotal evidence is evidence nonetheless, when it is validated by scientific protocols and logic. Lucid dreamers have communicated through eye movements.
It is an absolute fact that ALL supernatural interpretations (Astral/OBE etc) can be accounted for as REM experiences.
So why would someone be more inclinded to accept non-rational unvalidated occult explanations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Errm...lucid dreaming has been proven by hard science in a variety of ways. It's really not hard to have someone monitor your eye movements, and then while in your lucid dream, move your eyeballs in a pre-deteremined sequence to show that you are lucid, while being hooked up to a monitor showing that your brain is still in sleep mode.
http://www.lucidity.com/NL53.ResearchPastFuture.html
LaBerg (and many others) is pretty famous for numerous experiments proving the reality of lucid dreaming. Yes, lucid dreaming was considered nonsense in the 60's, but we've come a long way since then.
As far as these forums go, it's not our purpose to scientifically prove what has already been proven, or conduct scientific experiments on the validity of certain induction techniques--this is a discussion forum, mainly for helping people induce lucid dreams.
Sources please.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Logic, common-sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
Um, no sorry. Please do not make generalizations claiming them as fact without providing accurate citations. Especially if you are going to be rude and sarcastic about it, though I notice this is your normal forum demeanor.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Well.. I don't know which planet you reside on, but I have to completely disagree with that. "...very much a part of mainstream science.." You must be kidding.. or is this another one of your trolls?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
In my opinion, laBerge's experiments prove absolutely nothing more than the fact that certain things can happen to the brain while "asleep". If one takes away the subject dreamers' waking statements (Yes, I was LDing and moved my eyes.. etc) what remains is a large dose of nothing. LaBerge's "science" hinges on the verbal "corroboration" of the subject dreamers. Take that away from the equation, and what remains?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
Zilch.
Which is the reason why mainstream science ignores LDing. The "corroboration" is subjective, and the "science" is spurious.. it's been 31 years since laBerge's book, and LDing remains a new age niche subject.
Merry Christmas.
Lucid Dreaming might not be very mainstream but it is a science; not a pseudo science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Laberge did prove it. Before going falling asleep, he would tell the patient a pattern of eye movement such as "Look to the right, then upwards, diagonally down/right), to the left, down, up, dow, right." and they would go at the speed of one per second or something. And then when they were lucid they would do it proving that lucid dreaming is real.
Anyways, you know as well as us that it does exist.
I disagree. If anything, it's an art.. and it's certainly not mainstream science by any stretch of the imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
No he didn't, imo, not by a long chalk. Read on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
And so.. you read this in a book, and you take it as gospel? Where's the Validity Quotient in your "findings"? How do you know that none of the subjects was cheating? How do you know that laBerge wasn't "massaging" the truth? Answer: you don't. There are so many inconsistencies, and nothing is scientifically-proven. Like I wrote before, take away the verbal statements of the subject dreamers and examine the "science" on its own. It's completely spurious which is why mainstream science guffaws at LDing. Try talking to a Clinical Psychiatrist about it. You'll soon see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Ummmm.. actually, I don't. I know what I am personally capable of, but other people? I have to take their word for it. Just like laBerge did.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Heh.
Don't be silly. It was a simple matter to monitor patient's brain waves and determine their state of consciousness.
I travelled to another planet in my Camaro and shapeshifted into an alien to go hunting, and in the other I shapeshifted into a fox and was adopted by the family from "Alf."Quote:
What were they?
You went on a planet and shipshafted into a dog?
Lucid dreaming is pseudo-science uh?
By your logic, so is regular dreaming, can you prove to others you experienced those? In fact, can you prove you experience anything at all?
Your point is pointless. Everyone dreams and everyone experiences lucidness in life every day, so everyone knows those are possible, from there the idea of being lucid while in a dream (a state where at least part of consciousness and thinking lingered already) isn't a stretch at all.
Furthermore, it's something very easy to prove, if someone in REM sleep manages to correctly send a pre-determined message to those awake, the simplest explanation is that that person is lucid in that state.
At most you could question the claims of people being able to control their dreams(for now that's something you have to try and see for yourself). But being lucid in a dreaming state, that's plausible and easy to show to be true.
Well, I think the same as Scatterbrain. There was no way the patients were cheating since Laberge could see their brainwaves which indicated wheter they were sleeping or not. Besides, I'm suspecting that you're telling me that I should not take a scientist's researchs in considering; he might have lied about it. So, I might also doubt that there is anythign such as 2+2=4, because who knows. Whoever tested it might have cheated and added another apple or took one out. What are you telling me? It's simple logic that 2+2=4 because you can simply bring two fingers up and add two more and you now see 4? Well, same for lucid dreaming. You had some and most people on this website had them. Are you saying that everyone on this website are lucid dreamers wannabe and we all pretend we get lucid dreams just 'cause we think it'd be cool so we spent hours on here talking about things that we know doesn't exist but we just lie about it anyways? Doesn't make sense to me. If there was only 4 people, ok, maybe, but we're a lot too much to be all lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
I've had 3 dreams in the last four days but they were all too short for me to do anything like that... :P
I agree with this...Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
..but not this. In fact, a population as large as our could easily sustain delusion. It happens all the time. It's called "Groupthink."Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Before I go farther, I want to take time to define the term "delusion."
Delusion simply means "a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception." It doesn't mean you have a psychological condition, that you are experiencing hallucinations, or that there is anything mentally "wrong" with you, at all, apart from having an incorrect belief.
To apply it here, lets say that instead of being a lucid dreaming forum, this was a homeopathy forum. Everyone is here because they are an enthusiastic user or provider of homeopathic preparations.
Groupthink would assert itself in the form of us, as a group, ignoring or rationalizing away evidence which contradicts the claims of homeopathy, and placing undo focus or faulty perspective on information that seems to support it.
We would all have stories of our "successful" treatments of illnesses with homeopathy, as well as stories of failed attempts to do so, and those failures would be treated as evidence of incorrect application, rather than as evidence that the phenomenon is bunk.
Occasionally, individuals would get access to better information and stray from the flock, but on the whole, the community would continue to sustain itself indefinitely. In fact, the delusion itself would probably outlast the community. The website would be far more likely to die a slow death of disinterest, or suffer some server issues that disrupt the relationships to a point where they cannot easily recover, or something like that than to have everyone become disillusioned.
And you can't expect the media to do the job, either; the research proving that homeopathy doesn't work is well-documented and freely available, and yet communities of believers sustain themselves quite readily in spite of this.
The same is true for people who believe they have exorcised demons, people who believe they have been abducted by aliens, people who believe all sorts of other things.
A word on demons and aliens abductions, in particular. Both of these ideas come from the intersection of normal personal phenomena (sleep paralysis, in both cases) with cultural archetypes (evil spirits, and extraterrestrial beings, respectively. In fact, you can trace the relative decline of the former to the ascendance of the latter. It's almost as if aliens didn't achieve the technology to reach Earth until we learned enough about the universe to conceptualize the possibility of aliens.)
When we fail to adequately appreciate the ease with which our sense of reality can be compromised, we leave ourselves open to all sorts of delusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Keep at it. It gets much easier with practice. My personal advice is to grow your dream powers in ways that are intuitive to you, rather than trying to force yourself to do something you can't easily imagine.
I take what I said back. It would be possible that we were all lucid dreamers wannabe and all lied about being able to do so and on and on. However I don't think it's that in this case since lucid dreaming has been proven true.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
Thanks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
I feel that astral is higher than lucid, do to the fact(maybe just my reality). You are accessing your 3rd eye as a vision into a physical world as well. (or seeing with your eyes closed) You also may get quick flashes of past/present/future. Its true you can pull up a blackscreen in lucid, but usually ends up in another dream. Astral takes control of whats on the screen & how awake you realy are. How awake are you??
SleepyCookieDough:
I agree that lucid dreaming has been proven, which is why I believe in it, apart from my own experiences.
Dreamsayer: I appreciate your interest in shedding light on the subject, but how do you come to the conclusions in the first place?
For example, what makes you believe that the idea of a "third eye" actually describes a material reality?
How do you determine that what you call "astral" isn't just a particularly good lucid dream, with no supernatural aspect whatsoever?
I'm not closed to the possibility of AP on principle, or anything. But, I have not been presented with compelling evidence.
Yes, I knew that you agreed with that. (Just saying so you know I understood you)Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
I hold the same curiosity. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
well, commonly when returning from a astral experience, you can view the room before you enter your physical body, this will allow you to make observations, such as the clock(3rd eye sight) Lucid may allow you control, but you are actually just being silly in a world you control...Astral can control, but will commonly choose the observer. Where you have full access to open doors long closed(Akashic Records.) It is also in question of what state of consciousness you really are in... Did you experience it before you woke up(This determines your exposure into that state of mind) Meaning, you are not likely to go astral if you meditate or just after you fall asleep. But only after other deeper states of consciousness have taken the place of Alpha... Say gamma....So instead of lucid, which is alpha-theta... Astral may be gamma-theta. A definative state of higher consciousness. In this state there is commonly one main goal, This is for self improvement & finding answers(kundalini). Not making light sabers & cutting off dragons heads. Alot of signals cant be interpreted by the awake mind, but your subconscious can hear a broad band of waves we dont. You cant hear delta waves with the human ear, but an intuned mind still accepts these signals, Where the other 80% of the world deny these waves. So these people will always think its fake.
Science has been sweeping this under the carpet for years, so why are you at a dream sight when you dont believe your dreams have any influence in the physical??? I cant give you special powers to prove it, you have to KNOW they are true. Believing will only prove to be more elusive in your quest. When i see the future in a dream, I wonder why the whole world is ignorant about it. I may not be good enough to prove it, but i KNOW. I know that seeing something before it happens is just oxymoron to say its delusion, when it hasnt happened yet. Infact it would imply that the physical is the delusion, since the dream happened first.
But i cant make others see unless they uncover their eyes.
Why am i hear??? to share my knowledge on the dream world & find answers that scientists are to immature to take on. We want to know why we are different & why the rest of the world wont accept it... Really makes me rip my hair out honestly. I think maybe the others dont have developed brains or something. But insulting the world wont get me the answers i'm looking for. So i must be patient & dilligent at the same time.
I unfortunately am not a parapsychologist or physicist, so most of what i say is interpretations on the unknown. I hope to gain more insight as i may learn from others with the same situation as me...still looking.
How do you do Astral Projection. I'd just like to know so when I'm really good at lucid dreaming and related things, i could start trying this out and see for myself its relevent to me or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamsayer
Dreamsayer, you haven't actually addressed any of my questions. You have continued making unsupported assertions, and have denigrated science as immature and unenlightened, but have done nothing to offer me reasons to accept your claims as anything other than wish-thinking.
In other words, don't just explain the "rules" of astral projection, tell me why I should think it's real in the first place.
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by OP
I cant prove it. But it is possible that the mind is coming out of delta. or long exposures to a blackscreen. For me, it only happens toward the end of sleep. I think many scientists are fooled into believing it has something to do with DMT, when its not. I also have experienced it more frequent, when before you fall asleep, your mind becomes acceptant of subconscious signals...This is where you can still hear noises in the real world while your body is asleep. But only because hearing these sounds are related to what your conscious mind will accept. I describe these sounds as slipping out of density, because they sound as if they are being sucked into a world without density. So they dissipate into a broader frequency band & are obsorbed. I dont know many people that have experienced this, yet it happens to me alot... I think this may be a key to figuring it out. I think it is these waves that allow for you to accept signals into your conscious world. I call them clairaudient resonance, though i have seen no studies on this phenomenon. Put quite simply, some people have it, some dont. Its a little hard to debate an issue like this, when just about anything we cant prove gets thrown up on that dusty shelf called mysticism, but i call it Psi.
I do however know when they have done studies of precognition they recorded alpha waves bleeding in(like an observer) & large spikes of gamma(maybe the future), sometimes for long periods of time. They have also proved everyone has a prewarning(precognitive) in response to pictures right before they are shown...& this is with people that show no profound abilities, so clearly precognition should be where scientists research. They have had numerous tests in remote viewing, which in a way can tell where your personal frequency is at in a wake state. I have found that my range in the waking state is in color. I may not be able to pick up the cursed boat pictures, but i always get the colors right.. Some may see shapes,sounds,smells,tastes..etc.
I imply that scientists are not being grown up about it, because they dont even try to get intuned patients, they use the one element in all their tests that dissprove any results... Its simple, if someone is experiencing precognition, they are only remembering it, because it profoundly stands out. This can be better achieved by making synchronicity a part of your life(going to bed the same time,seeing the same people,daily behavior) For example: if you dream about cards with pictures on them everynight, where does that leave your test results, when everything is repetitiously performed. If i see a card with a picture of a square on it 6 times in a dream, how is this going to effect the results... It just becomes confusing & proves nothing. If they want to see results they have to span it accross a months time, where say you only see one card per week. So if you pick square everytime, you still lose, because these tests start at 24 cards. Now you tell me why highly trained scientists cant put that one together. I mean anyone who stops to think would know that synchronicity as a method for proving Psi is self defeating a person who lives in synchronicity...It all washes out as the same event as each card is displayed.
But six years of education is to exspensive to waste on a long shot, which leads to being shunned from the science community & basically ruins your career. So if you spent thousands of dollars to believe one thing, you may kill just to survive. Thats what scientists are trying to force feed you, whatever they had to pay big money to program themselves to believe. They are NOT going to back down. Even if its wrong. Thats why it was rediculous to believe the Earth was round, it could cost you your head, as it does in many ways today. But we now know the Earth is a sphere. We still have war mongering tyrants trying to control the world, so today is no different than yesterday.
Reece Jones on youtube has some research in lucid & astral you should check out.
I believe if you wake yourself up incrementally before your actual waking time & dont hardly move & go back to sleep, astral is more frequent. The trick is to try to not move & use a egg timer of sorts that can have multiple programming. & extend each wakeup by 5 minutes(also hands off is the best) a timer that just beeps everytime will allow you to just dose off instead of moving to hit the snooze, plus your mind records the increments, so a alarm clock doesnt work.
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
It's irrelevant though. If there's no proof OOBEs and such are not dream-phenomena, then there's no reason or need to prove they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
If someone makes a supernatural claim, the burden of proof lies with that person. This is specially true because supernatural claims are impossible to prove false.
LOL. Nice try, but a trite fallacious fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
The salient point remains.
Every single bit of evidence the "travellers" can provide for astral travelling/OBEs, can equally be attributed to normal dream mechanisms.
Karmic Vibrations=sleep paralysis.
Astral Induction = Wild
OBE = Sleep paralysis & conscious rem Entry.
See your self in bed = dream
Ghostly hands = dream
White tether = dream
OBE merging into Astral Plane = False awakening dream
Visiting the great white ball of light all the other astral travellers tell you to visit = dream
Any other boowlshoot you can come up with = dream.
Need I go on?
By all means, keep kidding yourself, but please don't pretend you're applying any logic to the situation.
One thing that gets me...is these darn vibrations. Is there any scientific evidence/theories as to what exactly causes the sensation of vibration? I mean it's so incredibly distinctive, plus I've found that I can actually control the vibrations and move them or focus them to different places in my body. This is one of those things that I have trouble explaining because I don't really understand, and have not read anything which explains why we experience these vibrations. I mean, the only thing I could possibly compare it to is pins and needles...however...pins and needles is completely different. It is not a vibration that comes in waves like experienced during SP?Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
I agree with you for the most part although I truly dislike your approach to the subject and people discussing it, none of it can be proven one way or the other however no matter how much you say it has been proven not to exist. It hasn't. I don't think people can prove that OBEs are real, and I do not think people can prove that they are not real. Therefore I am open to entertaining the belief, but that's really about as far as it goes for me for now. I also think that a lot of the experiences (most of them) are merely just different types of dreams and are often confused with something mystical. But at the same time, I will not call people foolish or judge them for thinking such things...because when you first experience them...it truly does feel like something mystical. After you've had awhile to process the information, do some research, and really think about it...you start to think that you're probably making it into something more than what it is.
Well actually, in the case of Etheric Projection, you could prove it doesn't exist, or at least that a person can or can't do it. In Etheric Projection a shadow of the body goes along with the soul, so the projected can be seen in a ghostly form.
I've forgotten what was going on in this thread but I think I read that the last posts were about if OBEs existed or not.
In the last 2 weeks or less, I've felt 2 or 3 sleep paralysis. I'm not sure about the 3rd one... Actually, neiter about the 2nd one but in these three experiences which were closeley related to sleep paralysis, I would first get the feeling of leaving my body. Then, I would get use to the feeling and it would keep being weird but I knew I was in a sleep paralysis. Anyways, this is all to say that OBEs, since they most of the time happen in WILDs in which you go through sleep paralysis, when experiencing an OBE or Astral projection the person experiencing it might think that the feeling of leaving your body is something other than the sleep paralysis and then entering a dream.
I don't know where I stand on AP actually. I'm just saying that people who haven't experienced it (myself included) can't automatically dismiss it as a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
You said that all AP related phenomena are scientifically proven to be nothing more than REM sleep. "Hands = dream, seeing body = dream, etc..." isn't exactly science, it's your opinion/guess.
Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not saying any such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
Science or not, it's hardly fair to call it a "guess." At a basic level, to argue for AP, or similar phenomenon, you are arguing against Occam's razor. It doesn't matter whether or not we can "prove" that those elements are merely dreams. The fact remains that they are easily explained as dreams. Therefore, the explanation of Astral Projection becomes burdensome, onerous, and awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyahoi
And since no one endeavoring to do this has demonstrated what I would consider a clear understanding of why Occam's Razor is taken seriously in the first place, their arguments are doomed before they begin.
Some people seem to be obsessed with occam's razor, do you shave yourself in the morning with it?
You must realize the majority of the world doesn't base it's life and everything they discuss after contemplating occam. You'd be better off explaining why he is "wrong" instead of going of on to a tangent about that tired old razor.
Actually, the majority does.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
After shaving in the morning you notice you have a small bleeding cut on your face; Do you assume the explanation to be that you accidentally made the cut while shaving, or that an invisible terrorist did it?
The majority of people when they cut themselves don't think about occams razor, whether they try to figure out the simplest answer or not..
Occams razor seems to be something people online love to just bring up.
Are you being thick on purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
It doesn't matter at all if people think of the term "occam's razor", what matters is that they apply the concept the term refers to. When two explanations have an equal amount of evidence (or equally lack evidence), the majority of people choose the simplest explanation.
I agree with DeathCell.
Glad someone understands, instead of trying to look intelligent and mentioning occams razor.. go to the trouble of explaining what is lacking!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
Normal people don't talk about occams razor on a daily basis, I'm just saying.
I know...it just seems like its trendy right now or something. Every damn subject about something like this someone comes in and is like...OMG OCCAM'S RAZOR!! /end discussion!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
Reminds me of an internet meme or something. :? Plus I can't help but think that this Occam's Razor eliminates all creativity. How boring. Talk about "think inside the box".
I don't understand what Occam's razor is.
http://www.skepdic.com/occam.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Rainman
People misuse it a lot. It seems that Occam's Razor can be applied to just about anything.
Ah, thanks. I'm still confused. Oh well. :O
I think it's saying that it is unnecessary to create an explanation for something which would end up causing even more questions. like I couldn't say that wind is an invisible person running past me very fast, because that would be far to complicated and much harder to explain than just air moving. Not that that is a much better explanation.
Ahhh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Haha.
I think it's akin to the theory that the simplest solution is usually the best. And correct me if I'm wrong, Nina.
I read your comment again. I now realize that you meant all AP related phenomena could be accounted for by REM sleep, and not that they are all proven to be REM sleep. Sorry about the misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
I understand the importance of Occam's Razor. I'm just saying that someone who has experienced AP may understand it a little better than we do. True, experiencing something doesn't automatically make you an expert on it, but we should take first hand accounts into consideration before dismissing the entire concept. This is especially true since many APers on this forum are also experienced in the ways of dreaming, and should be able to tell the difference.
How about a Oriyucans Razor for dumbies> Since i am not that familiar with this obvious physical anchor of solidity. When dreams say so much more on true intention. I can only try to understand such simplicities. Though it sounds like a replay of the chaos theory. Enlighten me.
[edited]
Occam's Razor, or "principle of economy," states a good deal more than just accepting the "simplest" solution.
Nina, you might find it frustrating that Occam's Razor is used by those with whom you disagree, or used a lot, or used to "end" a conversation, but this has nothing to do with its relevance.
And in reference to the Skepdic link, William of Ockham (or Occam) did in fact admit that, strictly speaking, God might be supposed not to exist at all.
What Occam's razor describes is intuitive to most of us to a greater or lesser degree.
Most of us have at least some sense of the principle it describes, but relatively few of us comprehend its larger implications.
Now, you don't have to like it, but Occam's Razor has something to say about AP. If you don't know what that something is, I would direct you to my previous post. If you have a rebuttal to that, then let's hear it. If you think I've misapplied Occam's Razor, then show me how. If you think it shouldn't be applied at all, then show me why.
Otherwise, you're just whining.
Occam's Razor is not some sleight of hand. I'm not "cheating" at debate by bringing it up. And I'd be willing to bet that you're no more annoyed by people bringing it up than I am by people who whine about arguments they don't think they should have to refute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
First of all...your ego is astounding.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCLefty
Secondly, I have nothing wrong with people disagreeing with me...what I do have issue with is when people, who apparently have limited MISunderstanding of the concept attempt to use it as an explanation.
Occam's Razor refers to a concept that states "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." It was NOT intended to be used to evaluate claims of the paranormal as skeptics today use it for.
"The principle of simplicity works as a heuristic rule-of-thumb but some people quote it as if it is an axiom of physics. It is not. It can work well in philosophy or particle physics, but less often so in cosmology or psychology, where things usually turn out to be more complicated than you ever expected. The law of parsimony is no substitute for insight, logic and the scientific method. It should never be relied upon to make or defend a conclusion. As arbiters of correctness only logical consistency and empirical evidence are absolute." - Phil Dibbs, Physicist
Thirdly, what is "simpler" is often relative. Simplicity is subjective and the universe does not always have the same ideas about simplicity as we do.
Fourth, even if we take Occam’s Razor at face value the way skeptics use it, just because one explanation is more likely doesn’t mean that it’s always the correct one. For example, if I toss a die, it is more likely that I will get numbers 1-5 than it is that I will roll a 6. But that doesn’t mean that a 6 will never come up. Therefore, occasionally an unlikely explanation can be expected to be true sometimes. However, skeptics treat Occam’s Razor as if it were an absolute rule and use it as an excuse for denying any claim, no matter how valid.
Last, when someone during an NDE or OBE hears a conversation or witnesses something many miles away and later upon verification, it turns out to be true, the skeptics will say that the simpler explanation is that the patient knew about the detail or conversation beforehand but forgot it. Likewise, if someone has a close up encounter of Bigfoot, skeptics will use Occam’s Razor to claim that it is more likely that the experiencer was either lying or hallucinating. Even if none of those alternate explanations are true, skeptics will still insist on them anyway, using Occam’s Razor as justification. Hence, they prefer a false non-paranormal explanation, even if untrue, rather than accept the truth that it happened the way described. This is clearly a case of bias rather than objectivity. What skeptics don’t seem to understand is that reality is not confined or measured by Occam’s Razor, and the use of Occam’s Razor in this manner does nothing but impede progress and learning.
This whole Quantum Jumping thing sounds like something Steve Pavlina would market. No matter how legitimate the information is, I refuse to pay for something such as that.
I think that is one thing we can all agree on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeome
Yup, seconded!
That's a false analogy. The 2 given positions (roll 1-5 VS roll 6) are not opposing theories, they're predictions and come from the same theory at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquanina
I don't think this as been mentioned yet, but with supernatural explanations the problem is worse than the explanation just being needlessly complicated. Some or all of the added complications are concepts which for all we know are completely imaginary.
That Occam's Razor is pretty much used in every day life. Nobody talks about it but you don't need to talk about the meaning. You don't live your life to the meaning in everything, but you do occams razor in pretty much every thought, or non thought. The simpliest answer does tend to be the right one. Of course i don't agree with how people use it "oh i must have cut myself", then "oh aliens must have done it" or whatever. People like reaching for the stupidest things to say to define 2 meanings. Why not something simple, instead of something way out there like aliens must have did it from the razor blade. Seems some people like reaching for the stars when they are defending what they are talking about.
Attempts at muddying the water with semantic squabbling about what "occams razor" really means changes nothing.
At a simple level there is no scientifically validated evidence for Astral Travelling. Which is not to say there has been no attempts to do so.
The "travellers" like to pretend they are marginalised by sneering scientists.
The truth is, the scientists have investigated...and found nothing.
This is not the same as the childish argument constantly reitterated on the board, that "science" simply hasn't caught up with "reality" :roll:
Another fact is that sleep science and the understanding of how the brain functions has come on in leaps and bounds. Now you may not be able to understand the science yourself, or you may not be interested in understanding, but ignoring salient information, or pretending it doesn't exist is highly spurious. For example how many times do you read in BD that we only use 10% of our brains? A wives tale. Scientists now know that we use all of our brain power. And whilst they don't know everything there is to know about sleep, they know an awful lot.
Again, the only "evidence" for AP is anecdotal. Yet we know that the logic centres of the brain shut down in rem sleep. Making anecdotal "evidence" highly unreliably.
Again, subjective experiences ultimately can be defined as dream content.
"I know it was an OBE. Because I read I would see my body in bed, and I did".:D Yeah, and I spend an afternoon visiting the zoo, and had a dream about penguins. So what?!
I want to second this.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
And furthermore, I want to point out that it is only in this context that Occam's razor becomes especially relevant, here.
Because we don't have data sufficient to support the conclusion that AP exists, we have to ask ourselves one question:
What is more likely, that dreams exist along a continuum of experience, and can easily create a facsimile of such phenomenon, or that the "soul" (whose own existence is itself not supported by evidence) is literally leaving the body and viewing objective reality by utterly non-physical means?
I would also like to consider something else, which is that at least in the case of the invisible ninja, I could never prove one way or another that he was the one who cut my face, rather than my own razor. In the case of OBE/AP/AT, however, if I were leaving my body and viewing the world without it, it would be fairly simple to construct an experiment that would prove this.
Considering how many people there are who are hard-core believers in this class of phenomena, it seems reasonable to suppose that some experimental evidence would have emerged by now.
Well, I'm sorry that you have that impression. Possibly, it is my own fault that you have it, but I also recall that ego/arrogance/hubris is a favorite ad hominem accusation (whether true in a given case, or not) for believers in the paranormal to level at Science, or its representatives.Quote:
First of all...your ego is astounding.
What I definitely am guilty of is being very forceful in how I express my opinions. I don't feel bad about this, but neither will I pretend it is some sort of virtue, as some people often do. I will say, however, that I have what seem to me to be noble reasons for it; namely, that I find the frightful lack of critical thinking skills (or even a good handle on what critical thinking means) in our culture to be a genuine threat to our long term stability, as well as our short-term happiness.
I think the whole scientific breakdown failed to do just that, no facts were presented, thus a Yoko Ono's razor left John Lennons wifes legs stubbley. What you all have missed is the clear ability of consciuos expansion through vibration. Density is the slowest vibration. Yet it is relevant consciousness vibrates well beyond sound, past light & an atempt to mingle with our antimatter self.... All these frequencies are within the range of human consciousness & can indeed be manifested by thought. The simple fact of this merger would cause a colision releasing massive gamma streams, to further be converted into pure energy & if spanning accross many folds of time, will inturn manifest back into matter. Do i need to get the physics book out for you guys??? As we align, we are doing just that...Its almost an unknowing atempt to shake hands with our antimatter. Antimatter in relation to position is undetermined, as it has been directly related to other elements in molecular modeling....any one????? yes, electrons are also undetermined. though it is viewed as matter, the simple fact is this only represents its physicalities, yet still undetermined to be matter by laws. It is measured in weight at any one givin location, which its vibration far exceeds any sound scale. Infact it has been recorded to exceed time space. Yes, the human mind fires faster than the speed of light. This distance from the antimatter body as it were can be recorded by precognitive distance, while in a sleep state observed by EEG. But keep in mind this is only a measurement at that very second & will not prove effective in comming to any frequent localities. The simple FACT that this antimatter is beyond time space while we are sitting back here pondering is in itself astounding. Scientists have come to the conclusion that this antimatter is not only connected to us by electron fields, but gamma streams as well, & is believed to be a more accurate form of measurement. Yes, gamma.. An ancient DNA encoding in all humans to impliment this gamma as a doorway to information, originating from mitochondria using methods of photosynthesis to convert this gamma(antimatter) into energy(matter). Stored in the human body as photons of light. with a constant stream connecting us to our antimatter self. As our antimatter is in no givin location or TIME. This means the applications for utilizing this is beyond anything science can percieve. Akashic Records starting to ring a bell? It is very relevant of states of consciousness & how lucid is merely a dream of reflection(alpha-theta) where astral takes on a deeper self of awareness(delta-theta-gamma). In my studies i believe the delta is oscillating into deeper states of delta as it teeters into epsylon. This very act of oscillation is proof of conscious expansion. The desire & strength of ones mind determines this journey to break from the physical itself. But once you shake hands with your antimatter, you in theory die & are reborn into a merger of data streams of past/present/future as time was never relevant to begin with. )))VIBRATE
You do realise your post made absolutely no sense right?
If you have no understanding at all of physics then please don't pretend you do. Randomly throwing around sciency words doesn't make you look smart, just ignorant.
This is where all of this modern spirituality exploded out from, the clear possability of this antimatter in our dreamstates & possible relations to our subconscious mind. It in a very very strong way sudjects that if you dont make this connection, you sieze to exsist after life. It can be determined to some sense in relation to some mystical attributes, such as clairvoyance/precognition. These factors in turn will determine your level of quantum entanglement. If you never astral projected, then this could be it for you. You would have to be spread out through time space to manifest into reality after your physical body has failed. The worse part for all scheptics is this is very likely. They didnt miss any calculations here. If you dont atleast consciously attempt to merge & more over even more effective to just have an open mind about EVERYTHING in observation. There is no heaven, there is no hell. But there is a void... & there is manifestation. Humanity takes these stored photons for granted everynight they close their eyes & project light from darkness. Where is your antimatter self???? mine travels in time, & to me that is definative quantum entanglement.
I have done more research in frequencies/vibrations. I have discovered the true cycle of the Earth ends on Feb 29th every 4 years. this alignment is in closest cooralation to the PISCES harmonizing at 7.72htz.. The only sign in alignment with the Earth frequency in relation to the tesla ressonance of 7.83htz. So the simple FACT that birthdate plays a dramatic role in the human experience. That should make you strongly consider how you percieved your Pisces friend pryer to this FACTUAL assesment. Factual.....it is in harmony as everything is on the planet Earth, with the musical note of B. This frequency of B aligns with all states of awareness, infact it is the only one that aligns with all forms of consciousness, including epsylon & gamma which are out of sync with many other signs. So this alignment with pisces includes epsylon/delta/theta/alpha/beta/gamma & further aligns on multi functions of delta-theta & theta-alpha... This isnt as easily obtainable for say a Libra or Virgo. & although this is using zodiac signs in relation to months, it is far from delving into Paganistic rituals & goes straight to the science of it all. Look it up yourself, but beware it requires math/science/deductive reasoning.... And its all right in front of everyones face. But you cant get a highly trained scientist to admit his whole career is a wash out, especially at university prices nowadays. They would just assume kill you to shut you up.
What i have stated has infact been documented, what trash can do you live in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Although we have many missinformants out there that call themselves physicists, I am here to tell you i do much research on this topic.
Do to the simplicity of your dull comment, i would say you have nothing to offer.
Prove me wrong, or just fuck yourself.
If this doesnt make any sense to you, then thats your shortcommings, dont try to conject a statement without intelligeable arguements douchebag, inturn you make yourself look like the jackass.
Yes, I'm the idiot here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamsayer
Starting to get out of hand guys. :?
Scatterbrain is right. It is impossible even to formulate a coherent response to your post, because it is such an inscrutable tangle of fragments of different scientific theories.
The different ingredients are snippets of thought taken indiscriminately, with no regard for whether the theories in question might be competing theories (and hence mutually exclusive) or even discredited altogether.
The sauce holding these fragmentary noodles toegether is a thorough "pop-ification" of the whole mess, wrenching everything out of anything like a proper context and replacing what the theories actually mean with ill-informed popular notions of what they mean.
So, you've compromised the meaning of theories, resurrected dead/unsupported theories, and then chopped them up into little parts and mixed them up to create something that supports what you want.
What is the highest level of Math that you have mastered? (If you choose to lie, do it carefully; you will be tested if you claim Diff. Eq. or anything higher. [Which, itself, would not be nearly high enough to support your claims, and hence the statement I quoted above.]) I don't have a problem with arrogance in and of itself, but it must be justified.Quote:
If this doesnt make any sense to you, then thats your shortcommings, dont try to conject a statement without intelligeable arguements douchebag, inturn you make yourself look like the jackass.
You know what...this thread is SO FAR off-topic that I do not know why it wasn't closed sooner. It seems pretty clear that no one has any idea of what quantum jumping is, though it seems unanimous we're not going to pay to learn. If anyone sees a good place to split the topic to continue discussion along a certain line (for example: Occam's Razor, Logical Reasoning/Fallacies in Argument, etc.) let me know via PM and I will do so in Extended Discussion/Philosophy, BD is not the place.