Thread: quantum jumping???

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Fair enough. I remain somewhat dubious, but certainly you should know yourself better than I would.

lol, sorry for arguing for such a stupid thing... It doesn't very occur to me that I'm arguing, I just do even with the stupidest ones... lol!

What was the point of all this? Oh yeah, if souls existed and why believing in them was dangerous if they didn't!

I don't know what else to say...

testing something...

EDIT: Test failed...

Originally Posted by RCLefty

testing something...

EDIT: Test failed...

what did you test?

My sig.

EDIT: Hurray!!!

So far I enjoyed listening to his first CD. The knowledge he is sharing is pretty much usefull and pretty interesting for open minded people. He shares some experiences and techniques which put you into trance and the Alpha state. He guides you on how to meet your doppelganger and establish a connection with it. I will post my next results once I am done listening to the 2nd CD.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

My sig.

EDIT: Hurray!!!

Nice sign. Are they tasks you've completed?

Originally Posted by L

So far I enjoyed listening to his first CD. The knowledge he is sharing is pretty much usefull and pretty interesting for open minded people. He shares some experiences and techniques which put you into trance and the Alpha state. He guides you on how to meet your doppelganger and establish a connection with it. I will post my next results once I am done listening to the 2nd CD.

How many CDs are there in all?

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Nice sign. Are they tasks you've completed?

Yes.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Yes.

What were they?
You went on a planet and shipshafted into a dog?

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Yes consciousness resides within the brain, what's your point? I think this is a pretty widely accepted fact. Whether you believe that conscious is only the brain, or something connected to the body through a part of the brain...it still resides in the brain. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. If you're trying to say that science has proven that psychic phenomena doesn't exist... then that's news to me...and...citations plz.

(1) Are you suggesting that science hasn't investigated psychic phenomenon?

(2) "Connected" and "resides" isn't the same thing now, is it?

Originally Posted by Xedan

God damn, you guys have been posting a lot. Well in response to this post, I see no evidence that lucid dreaming works at all. I myself have had lucid dreams, but I can't prove it. There are techniques for inducing them, but a person could just as easily just say it worked for them when it failed. Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.

Dreaming and REM sleep, including lucid dreaming, is very much a part of mainstream science. Lucid dreaming has indeed been tested in scientific conditions.

In addition, anecdotal evidence is evidence nonetheless, when it is validated by scientific protocols and logic. Lucid dreamers have communicated through eye movements.

It is an absolute fact that ALL supernatural interpretations (Astral/OBE etc) can be accounted for as REM experiences.

So why would someone be more inclinded to accept non-rational unvalidated occult explanations?

Originally Posted by Xedan

God damn, you guys have been posting a lot. Well in response to this post, I see no evidence that lucid dreaming works at all. I myself have had lucid dreams, but I can't prove it. There are techniques for inducing them, but a person could just as easily just say it worked for them when it failed. Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.

Errm...lucid dreaming has been proven by hard science in a variety of ways. It's really not hard to have someone monitor your eye movements, and then while in your lucid dream, move your eyeballs in a pre-deteremined sequence to show that you are lucid, while being hooked up to a monitor showing that your brain is still in sleep mode.

http://www.lucidity.com/NL53.ResearchPastFuture.html

LaBerg (and many others) is pretty famous for numerous experiments proving the reality of lucid dreaming. Yes, lucid dreaming was considered nonsense in the 60's, but we've come a long way since then.

As far as these forums go, it's not our purpose to scientifically prove what has already been proven, or conduct scientific experiments on the validity of certain induction techniques--this is a discussion forum, mainly for helping people induce lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by moonshine

It is an absolute fact that ALL supernatural interpretations (Astral/OBE etc) can be accounted for as REM experiences.

Sources please.

Originally Posted by Beeyahoi

Sources please.

Logic, common-sense.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Logic, common-sense.

Um, no sorry. Please do not make generalizations claiming them as fact without providing accurate citations. Especially if you are going to be rude and sarcastic about it, though I notice this is your normal forum demeanor.

Originally Posted by moonshine

...lucid dreaming is very much a part of mainstream science.

Well.. I don't know which planet you reside on, but I have to completely disagree with that. "...very much a part of mainstream science.." You must be kidding.. or is this another one of your trolls?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Lucid dreaming has indeed been tested in scientific conditions. In addition, anecdotal evidence is evidence nonetheless, when it is validated by scientific protocols and logic. Lucid dreamers have communicated through eye movements.

In my opinion, laBerge's experiments prove absolutely nothing more than the fact that certain things can happen to the brain while "asleep". If one takes away the subject dreamers' waking statements (Yes, I was LDing and moved my eyes.. etc) what remains is a large dose of nothing. LaBerge's "science" hinges on the verbal "corroboration" of the subject dreamers. Take that away from the equation, and what remains?

Zilch.

Which is the reason why mainstream science ignores LDing. The "corroboration" is subjective, and the "science" is spurious.. it's been 31 years since laBerge's book, and LDing remains a new age niche subject.

Merry Christmas.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

Well.. I don't know which planet you reside on, but I have to completely disagree with that. "...very much a part of mainstream science.." You must be kidding.. or is this another one of your trolls?

Lucid Dreaming might not be very mainstream but it is a science; not a pseudo science.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

In my opinion, laBerge's experiments prove absolutely nothing more than the fact that certain things can happen to the brain while "asleep". If one takes away the subject dreamers' waking statements (Yes, I was LDing and moved my eyes.. etc) what remains is a large dose of nothing. LaBerge's "science" hinges on the verbal "corroboration" of the subject dreamers. Take that away from the equation, and what remains?

Laberge did prove it. Before going falling asleep, he would tell the patient a pattern of eye movement such as "Look to the right, then upwards, diagonally down/right), to the left, down, up, dow, right." and they would go at the speed of one per second or something. And then when they were lucid they would do it proving that lucid dreaming is real.

Anyways, you know as well as us that it does exist.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Lucid Dreaming might not be very mainstream but it is a science; not a pseudo science.

I disagree. If anything, it's an art.. and it's certainly not mainstream science by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Laberge did prove it.

No he didn't, imo, not by a long chalk. Read on.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Before going falling (sic) asleep, he would tell the patient a pattern of eye movement such as "Look to the right, then upwards, diagonally down/right), to the left, down, up, dow, right." and they would go at the speed of one per second or something. And then when they were lucid they would do it..proving that lucid dreaming is real.

And so.. you read this in a book, and you take it as gospel? Where's the Validity Quotient in your "findings"? How do you know that none of the subjects was cheating? How do you know that laBerge wasn't "massaging" the truth? Answer: you don't. There are so many inconsistencies, and nothing is scientifically-proven. Like I wrote before, take away the verbal statements of the subject dreamers and examine the "science" on its own. It's completely spurious which is why mainstream science guffaws at LDing. Try talking to a Clinical Psychiatrist about it. You'll soon see what I mean.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Anyways, you know as well as us that it does exist.

Ummmm.. actually, I don't. I know what I am personally capable of, but other people? I have to take their word for it. Just like laBerge did.

Heh.

Don't be silly. It was a simple matter to monitor patient's brain waves and determine their state of consciousness.

What were they?
You went on a planet and shipshafted into a dog?

I travelled to another planet in my Camaro and shapeshifted into an alien to go hunting, and in the other I shapeshifted into a fox and was adopted by the family from "Alf."

Lucid dreaming is pseudo-science uh?

By your logic, so is regular dreaming, can you prove to others you experienced those? In fact, can you prove you experience anything at all?




Your point is pointless. Everyone dreams and everyone experiences lucidness in life every day, so everyone knows those are possible, from there the idea of being lucid while in a dream (a state where at least part of consciousness and thinking lingered already) isn't a stretch at all.

Furthermore, it's something very easy to prove, if someone in REM sleep manages to correctly send a pre-determined message to those awake, the simplest explanation is that that person is lucid in that state.

At most you could question the claims of people being able to control their dreams(for now that's something you have to try and see for yourself). But being lucid in a dreaming state, that's plausible and easy to show to be true.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

I disagree. If anything, it's an art.. and it's certainly not mainstream science by any stretch of the imagination.



No he didn't, imo, not by a long chalk. Read on.



And so.. you read this in a book, and you take it as gospel? Where's the Validity Quotient in your "findings"? How do you know that none of the subjects was cheating? How do you know that laBerge wasn't "massaging" the truth? Answer: you don't. There are so many inconsistencies, and nothing is scientifically-proven. Like I wrote before, take away the verbal statements of the subject dreamers and examine the "science" on its own. It's completely spurious which is why mainstream science guffaws at LDing. Try talking to a Clinical Psychiatrist about it. You'll soon see what I mean.



Ummmm.. actually, I don't. I know what I am personally capable of, but other people? I have to take their word for it. Just like laBerge did.

Heh.

Well, I think the same as Scatterbrain. There was no way the patients were cheating since Laberge could see their brainwaves which indicated wheter they were sleeping or not. Besides, I'm suspecting that you're telling me that I should not take a scientist's researchs in considering; he might have lied about it. So, I might also doubt that there is anythign such as 2+2=4, because who knows. Whoever tested it might have cheated and added another apple or took one out. What are you telling me? It's simple logic that 2+2=4 because you can simply bring two fingers up and add two more and you now see 4? Well, same for lucid dreaming. You had some and most people on this website had them. Are you saying that everyone on this website are lucid dreamers wannabe and we all pretend we get lucid dreams just 'cause we think it'd be cool so we spent hours on here talking about things that we know doesn't exist but we just lie about it anyways? Doesn't make sense to me. If there was only 4 people, ok, maybe, but we're a lot too much to be all lying.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Don't be silly. It was a simple matter to monitor patient's brain waves and determine their state of consciousness.



I travelled to another planet in my Camaro and shapeshifted into an alien to go hunting, and in the other I shapeshifted into a fox and was adopted by the family from "Alf."

Nice!
I've had 3 dreams in the last four days but they were all too short for me to do anything like that...

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Well, I think the same as Scatterbrain. There was no way the patients were cheating since Laberge could see their brainwaves which indicated wheter they were sleeping or not. Besides, I'm suspecting that you're telling me that I should not take a scientist's researchs in considering; he might have lied about it. So, I might also doubt that there is anythign such as 2+2=4, because who knows. Whoever tested it might have cheated and added another apple or took one out. What are you telling me? It's simple logic that 2+2=4 because you can simply bring two fingers up and add two more and you now see 4? Well, same for lucid dreaming.

I agree with this...

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

You had some and most people on this website had them. Are you saying that everyone on this website are lucid dreamers wannabe and we all pretend we get lucid dreams just 'cause we think it'd be cool so we spent hours on here talking about things that we know doesn't exist but we just lie about it anyways? Doesn't make sense to me. If there was only 4 people, ok, maybe, but we're a lot too much to be all lying.

..but not this. In fact, a population as large as our could easily sustain delusion. It happens all the time. It's called "Groupthink."

Before I go farther, I want to take time to define the term "delusion."

Delusion simply means "a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception." It doesn't mean you have a psychological condition, that you are experiencing hallucinations, or that there is anything mentally "wrong" with you, at all, apart from having an incorrect belief.

To apply it here, lets say that instead of being a lucid dreaming forum, this was a homeopathy forum. Everyone is here because they are an enthusiastic user or provider of homeopathic preparations.

Groupthink would assert itself in the form of us, as a group, ignoring or rationalizing away evidence which contradicts the claims of homeopathy, and placing undo focus or faulty perspective on information that seems to support it.

We would all have stories of our "successful" treatments of illnesses with homeopathy, as well as stories of failed attempts to do so, and those failures would be treated as evidence of incorrect application, rather than as evidence that the phenomenon is bunk.

Occasionally, individuals would get access to better information and stray from the flock, but on the whole, the community would continue to sustain itself indefinitely. In fact, the delusion itself would probably outlast the community. The website would be far more likely to die a slow death of disinterest, or suffer some server issues that disrupt the relationships to a point where they cannot easily recover, or something like that than to have everyone become disillusioned.

And you can't expect the media to do the job, either; the research proving that homeopathy doesn't work is well-documented and freely available, and yet communities of believers sustain themselves quite readily in spite of this.

The same is true for people who believe they have exorcised demons, people who believe they have been abducted by aliens, people who believe all sorts of other things.

A word on demons and aliens abductions, in particular. Both of these ideas come from the intersection of normal personal phenomena (sleep paralysis, in both cases) with cultural archetypes (evil spirits, and extraterrestrial beings, respectively. In fact, you can trace the relative decline of the former to the ascendance of the latter. It's almost as if aliens didn't achieve the technology to reach Earth until we learned enough about the universe to conceptualize the possibility of aliens.)

When we fail to adequately appreciate the ease with which our sense of reality can be compromised, we leave ourselves open to all sorts of delusions.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Nice!
I've had 3 dreams in the last four days but they were all too short for me to do anything like that...

Keep at it. It gets much easier with practice. My personal advice is to grow your dream powers in ways that are intuitive to you, rather than trying to force yourself to do something you can't easily imagine.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

..but not this. In fact, a population as large as our could easily sustain delusion. It happens all the time. It's called "Groupthink."

Before I go farther, I want to take time to define the term "delusion."

Delusion simply means "a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception." It doesn't mean you have a psychological condition, that you are experiencing hallucinations, or that there is anything mentally "wrong" with you, at all, apart from having an incorrect belief.

To apply it here, lets say that instead of being a lucid dreaming forum, this was a homeopathy forum. Everyone is here because they are an enthusiastic user or provider of homeopathic preparations.

Groupthink would assert itself in the form of us, as a group, ignoring or rationalizing away evidence which contradicts the claims of homeopathy, and placing undo focus or faulty perspective on information that seems to support it.

We would all have stories of our "successful" treatments of illnesses with homeopathy, as well as stories of failed attempts to do so, and those failures would be treated as evidence of incorrect application, rather than as evidence that the phenomenon is bunk.

Occasionally, individuals would get access to better information and stray from the flock, but on the whole, the community would continue to sustain itself indefinitely. In fact, the delusion itself would probably outlast the community. The website would be far more likely to die a slow death of disinterest, or suffer some server issues that disrupt the relationships to a point where they cannot easily recover, or something like that than to have everyone become disillusioned.

And you can't expect the media to do the job, either; the research proving that homeopathy doesn't work is well-documented and freely available, and yet communities of believers sustain themselves quite readily in spite of this.

The same is true for people who believe they have exorcised demons, people who believe they have been abducted by aliens, people who believe all sorts of other things.

A word on demons and aliens abductions, in particular. Both of these ideas come from the intersection of normal personal phenomena (sleep paralysis, in both cases) with cultural archetypes (evil spirits, and extraterrestrial beings, respectively. In fact, you can trace the relative decline of the former to the ascendance of the latter. It's almost as if aliens didn't achieve the technology to reach Earth until we learned enough about the universe to conceptualize the possibility of aliens.)

When we fail to adequately appreciate the ease with which our sense of reality can be compromised, we leave ourselves open to all sorts of delusions.

I take what I said back. It would be possible that we were all lucid dreamers wannabe and all lied about being able to do so and on and on. However I don't think it's that in this case since lucid dreaming has been proven true.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Keep at it. It gets much easier with practice. My personal advice is to grow your dream powers in ways that are intuitive to you, rather than trying to force yourself to do something you can't easily imagine.

Thanks.

I feel that astral is higher than lucid, do to the fact(maybe just my reality). You are accessing your 3rd eye as a vision into a physical world as well. (or seeing with your eyes closed) You also may get quick flashes of past/present/future. Its true you can pull up a blackscreen in lucid, but usually ends up in another dream. Astral takes control of whats on the screen & how awake you realy are. How awake are you??

SleepyCookieDough:

I agree that lucid dreaming has been proven, which is why I believe in it, apart from my own experiences.

Dreamsayer: I appreciate your interest in shedding light on the subject, but how do you come to the conclusions in the first place?

For example, what makes you believe that the idea of a "third eye" actually describes a material reality?

How do you determine that what you call "astral" isn't just a particularly good lucid dream, with no supernatural aspect whatsoever?

I'm not closed to the possibility of AP on principle, or anything. But, I have not been presented with compelling evidence.