Thread: quantum jumping???

Lucid dreaming is considered a pseudo-science, dude

Thank god we actually have proof that lucid dreaming exists...I cannot imagine the amount of skeptical people we would get who have never had a lucid dream and do not think it is even possible. Really, it's only a matter of time until we have proof of some of these other things that people are so quick to dismiss. However, this quantum jumping does seem like a load of bull, just trying to make a buck off gullible people...and I honestly don't even have a clue what it's about...but I'm filing it away under the same category as "yogic flying"...heh.

*agreed*

By the way, anyone here ever heard of the "Unexplainable Store"? They sell binaural tracks that supposedly work 100% of the time. On a huge variety of subjects too.

Originally Posted by Xedan

*agreed*

By the way, anyone here ever heard of the "Unexplainable Store"? They sell binaural tracks that supposedly work 100% of the time. On a huge variety of subjects too.

How inexplicably convenient...

yea, wonder if anyone's boot leggin' those to tryout?

Originally Posted by Xedan

Lucid dreaming is considered a pseudo-science, dude

Not it isn't. Some people may attach unnecessary pseudo-scientific practices and rituals to lucid dreaming, but that doesn't mean they're necessary for the act or it's study.

Lucid dreaming may have been fringe, but it was never supernatural.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Not it isn't. Some people may attach unnecessary pseudo-scientific practices and rituals to lucid dreaming, but that doesn't mean they're necessary for the act or it's study.

Lucid dreaming may have been fringe, but it was never supernatural.

Agreed.

And while Astral Projection might be real, it has no significantly better chance than Santa Clause, unicorns, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

For example, you can't even construct a theory about Astral Projection without assuming the existence of souls, and currently there is no evidence for souls.

In fact, souls not only lack empirical support, they don't even have explanatory power. I challenge anyone here to provide any demonstrable phenomenon that is better explained by souls than by a materialistic alternative.

Until such a phenomenon can be identified, the existence of souls, much less ideas like AP, is pure speculation.

So, if AP is a guess, then it has about as much chance of being correct as you have of scoring a regulation basket by throwing a basketball in a pitch-black room, when you aren't even sure if there's a basketball goal in the room to begin with.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

In fact, souls not only lack empirical support, they don't even have explanatory power. I challenge anyone here to provide any demonstrable phenomenon that is better explained by souls than by a materialistic alternative.

Well, if you believe in an after life than souls are most likely to exist since our body obviously stays on earth when we die.

I'm pretty spektical about astral projection though and I'm not sure about souls too. I try staying neutral about things but I like thinking there is an afterlife so I guess we do might need a soul for such a thing.

I dont know guys, I downloaded the 6 cd's set yesterday, and I will give it a try and post results here, who ever wishes to download those cd's instead of paying for them just hit me up on private message. I really dont care if it works for me or not, since I have nothing to loose i will give it a try and see what it does.

I wouldnt buy those cd's thought, sometimes internet can be a scary place when money is involved.

Originally Posted by L

I dont know guys, I downloaded the 6 cd's set yesterday, and I will give it a try and post results here, who ever wishes to download those cd's instead of paying for them just hit me up on private message. I really dont care if it works for me or not, since I have nothing to loose i will give it a try and see what it does.

I wouldnt buy those cd's thought, sometimes internet can be a scary place when money is involved.

If it works, you could make a tutorial on Quantum Jumping for everyone on DV to learn how to do it (well, if you have the time, and if it works )

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Well, if you believe in an after life than souls are most likely to exist since our body obviously stays on earth when we die.

I'm pretty spektical about astral projection though and I'm not sure about souls too. I try staying neutral about things but I like thinking there is an afterlife so I guess we do might need a soul for such a thing.

Sure, but one's desire that there be an afterlife ought not to influence their belief in such a thing. I would like it if there were a million dollar balance on my checking account, but it would be dangerous if I allowed myself to believe there were without evidence.

Likewise, look at the 9/11 hijackers as evidence of just how dangerous belief in an after-life can be.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Sure, but one's desire that there be an afterlife ought not to influence their belief in such a thing. I would like it if there were a million dollar balance on my checking account, but it would be dangerous if I allowed myself to believe there were without evidence.

Likewise, look at the 9/11 hijackers as evidence of just how dangerous belief in an after-life can be.

Believing in an afterlife might have been dangerous during the 9/11 but that's 'cause they were hardcore religious believers. I'm an agnostic and wouldn't do anything like sacrificing myself for a God or attack people because I judge their religion. I'm simply sane and want to live the longest I can. However, believing in an afterlife helps me not being scared of death and so I can react better when it comes (to maybe survive and if I die, not to be so scared, to just be curious about what's on the other side). And it also makes it easier for when other people die. It's not as sad when you believe in an afterlife. I would also make no bad decisions because of my belief in an afterlife since I'm an agnostic after all and I don't 100% believe in an afterlife, I only use that belief to help me in everyday life. (if you get what I mean.)

And also, every one has similar brains (maybe the same) but everyone has different personalities. I'm not saying it's a proof, I'm just looking for reasons why souls would exist. I myself am neutral to that belief like to any other belief. Everyone's brain has different information and experiences stored in it with diferent teachings and stuff and that might be why people are so different... I don't know.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

Believing in an afterlife might have been dangerous during the 9/11 but that's 'cause they were hardcore religious believers. I'm an agnostic and wouldn't do anything like sacrificing myself for a God or attack people because I judge their religion.

Where is the line between "safe" superstition and "dangerous" superstition? When is it ever safe to have an incorrect belief about your reality? All incorrect beliefs have the potential to lead to incorrect decisions. This includes both practical decisions and ethical ones.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

However, believing in an afterlife helps me not being scared of death and so I can react better when it comes (to maybe survive and if I die, not to be so scared, to just be curious about what's on the other side).

I doubt this. I think that, rather than being more prepared, you will be less prepared. For one thing, it seems to me that you don't actually believe in an afterlife at all; you are just telling yourself you believe it. (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from your posts.) So to me, it seems that when the time comes, you will suddenly find your never-all-that-sincere belief abandoning you, and you're suddenly in the position of having to come to terms with death in a way that you never have, before.

A leap of faith is not something that can be made once and for all; you have to go on making that leap over and over again, every day, every hour, every minute of your life. That's not noble, that's denial. Coming to terms with death is a good deal more difficult than just pushing the question away, but once you have faced it honestly, you don't have to keep doing it over and over again.

In the words of Samuel Clements (Mark Twain): "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Where is the line between "safe" superstition and "dangerous" superstition? When is it ever safe to have an incorrect belief about your reality? All incorrect beliefs have the potential to lead to incorrect decisions. This includes both practical decisions and ethical ones.

I doubt this. I think that, rather than being more prepared, you will be less prepared. For one thing, it seems to me that you don't actually believe in an afterlife at all; you are just telling yourself you believe it. (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I get from your posts.) So to me, it seems that when the time comes, you will suddenly find your never-all-that-sincere belief abandoning you, and you're suddenly in the position of having to come to terms with death in a way that you never have, before.

A leap of faith is not something that can be made once and for all; you have to go on making that leap over and over again, every day, every hour, every minute of your life. That's not noble, that's denial. Coming to terms with death is a good deal more difficult than just pushing the question away, but once you have faced it honestly, you don't have to keep doing it over and over again.

In the words of Samuel Clements (Mark Twain): "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

you've brought good arguments and yes you've understood well when I you said "For one thing, it seems to me that you don't actually believe in an afterlife at all; you are just telling yourself you believe it."
Well, I do not believe in anything because I am an Apathical Agnostic and I believe that I shouldn't believe in anything until I die and that then I will know what to believe in if there is an afterlife. I believe, that during my life, I should try my best to become the best person I can be and be the happiest I can be (and blahblahblah) but then I make myself believe things that help me in everyday life which I try not to believe 'cause I know (or thing)(since I'm an agnostic) that these believes are just possibilities and that they might as well be false.

Now, you are right, I would find it horrible if there was no afterlife so I make myself believe. But now I remember that my belief in an afterlife isn't one of the ones I'm trying not to believe in (I get very comfused with my believes, lol) So, starting back to point 1 (about my belief on afterlife), it is the only belief I allow myslef to have because it helps me not being scared and that if there isn't an afterlife, then, I will never know and never care. I see much more benefits to believing in it than not so I strongly make myself believe in it to the point that I actually believe in it (but I just know that I have no proof and it might not be true, but I keep in my mind that its true 'cause I think its good for me to believe in it) And I don't know what will happen when I am to be killed but not too long ago, I had a very weird dream in which I died. My first thoughts were "Oh shit! I'm dead! I died so young... Oh well, I get to see what happens when you die and then I was filled with a very weird feeling that covered my whole body and then I thought it was very cool and I stayed vigilant to see what next would happen. Now that all this was hapening, I was sure that there was an afterlife. I was expecting to appear in an afterlife place or something but instead a vivid image of paper, ink and a feather appeared. I then realized I was in my bed having a sleep paralisis. I also realized I had been awake since I had felt that very weird feeling (which was the SP itself) which I had thought was a proof of my Death. So technickly, I've sincerly thought I was dead while awake and conscious, (I remember being very conscious, just not lucid) So, I guess that my reaction at that moment would probably be my reaction if I did die: acceptance and curiosity. I still don't know how I would react before I died though, especially if it was long.... Sorry for my comfusing explanations.

Well, I do appreciate that you took my thoughts seriously.

I rather doubt that you were truly "awake and conscious" in the situation you describe. If you had been "conscious" as it is traditionally defined, you would have been aware of where you were and that you were not dead. So, it seems that you were unconscious by definition. And anyone who has heard their alarm clock playing in a dream, or tried to answer it like a telephone knows that in the border between sleep and wakefulness, all bets are off. Of course, that doesn't mean you won't view your death with optimism and curiosity when it is imminent, but I hardly find it to be persuasive evidence that you will. Our emotional reactions to stimuli are seriously distorted in dreams.

You are right, of course, when you say that if there is no afterlife, you'll never know it. But that was never what concerned me. Rather, I suspected that when the chips were down, and death was really staring you right in the face, you would not be able to suspend your disbelief any longer, and you would never have come to terms with the possibility that your stream of consiousness might simply end.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Thank god we actually have proof that lucid dreaming exists...I cannot imagine the amount of skeptical people we would get who have never had a lucid dream and do not think it is even possible. Really, it's only a matter of time until we have proof of some of these other things that people are so quick to dismiss.

Why wait. Science has proven, with a huge degree of certainty, that the consciousness resides within the brain. There is a wealth of evidence out there. Its just a bit inconvenient for the quantum leapers.
Oh boy!

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Agreed.

And while Astral Projection might be real, it has no significantly better chance than Santa Clause, unicorns, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

For example, you can't even construct a theory about Astral Projection without assuming the existence of souls, and currently there is no evidence for souls.

In fact, souls not only lack empirical support, they don't even have explanatory power. I challenge anyone here to provide any demonstrable phenomenon that is better explained by souls than by a materialistic alternative.

Until such a phenomenon can be identified, the existence of souls, much less ideas like AP, is pure speculation.

So, if AP is a guess, then it has about as much chance of being correct as you have of scoring a regulation basket by throwing a basketball in a pitch-black room, when you aren't even sure if there's a basketball goal in the room to begin with.

Agree with all of the above.

It's also worth adding that as far as OBE/Astral Projection goes, there is also scientifically viable explanations of what is occouring.
Objective rather than subjective reality.
Occams razor applies.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Why wait. Science has proven, with a huge degree of certainty, that the consciousness resides within the brain. There is a wealth of evidence out there.

Yes consciousness resides within the brain, what's your point? I think this is a pretty widely accepted fact. Whether you believe that conscious is only the brain, or something connected to the body through a part of the brain...it still resides in the brain. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. If you're trying to say that science has proven that psychic phenomena doesn't exist... then that's news to me...and...citations plz.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Not it isn't. Some people may attach unnecessary pseudo-scientific practices and rituals to lucid dreaming, but that doesn't mean they're necessary for the act or it's study.

Lucid dreaming may have been fringe, but it was never supernatural.

God damn, you guys have been posting a lot. Well in response to this post, I see no evidence that lucid dreaming works at all. I myself have had lucid dreams, but I can't prove it. There are techniques for inducing them, but a person could just as easily just say it worked for them when it failed. Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Yes consciousness resides within the brain, what's your point? I think this is a pretty widely accepted fact. Whether you believe that conscious is only the brain, or something connected to the body through a part of the brain...it still resides in the brain. So I'm not really sure what you're suggesting. If you're trying to say that science has proven that psychic phenomena doesn't exist... then that's news to me...and...citations plz.

Consciousness does reside in the brain. "Consciousness is not a thing in the brain information is just poured into. It's the struggle of different circuit to hold the stage for a second." And that is from a very high up scientist talking to discovery magazine.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Yawn. You would try to put it that way.

How much of reality can science prove compared to occultism?
Thats a better question.

Last I checked the earth wasn't flat and your internet connection wasn't powered by the astral plane

Occultism and flat earth theory???? What? Who that follows occultism, believes that?

Originally Posted by Xedan

Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.

We are orders of magnitude above ghost hunting.

It's not even a continuum, really, it's simply three separate categories:

Hard Science
Includes only those sciences that include both empirical evidence and explanatory power. Although there are debates, and areas of uncertainty, the dominant theories in these fields enjoy the strongest support from evidence, and the greatest ability to explain the phenomena they are invoked to explain, relative to rival theories.

This Category includes Quantum Mechanics, Evolution, and some relevant aspects of psychology, such as Behavioral Psychology, Neurology, and Lucid Dreaming. (In experiments, subjects have been able to communicate with scientists from dream states through patterns of agreed-upon eye movement.)

Humanistic Science
The fields do not admit to any empirical evidence to which we could find access at this time. Therefore, they rely only upon explanatory power for their standing. Debates are more frequent, and not always productive, and sometimes a field can be dominated by several competing rival theories. Dominant theories in these fields can only keep their position by doing a better job of explaining the phenomena they are invoked to explain, relative to rival theories.

This Category includes Cognitive Psychology, Freudian, Jungian, and Adlerian schools of thought, Sociology, Person-Centered Theory, and Transactional Analysis.

It is important to realize that explanatory power is very important, and so the dominant theories in these fields can still be safely regarded as correct, especially when they have no powerful rival theories.

Non-Science
This includes anything from pseudoscience (the application of scientific principles in an incorrect or incomplete way that yields unreliable results) or speculations such as the occult. Theories in this field are supported by individuals who either do not respect the principles of science, or have an imperfect understanding of those principles. As a rule, they are not supported by significant amounts of empirical evidence, and they do not succeed at explaining any phenomena better than alternative explanations. Often, they do not explain any observed phenomena at all, merely adding hypothetical mysteries without offering solutions to any existing ones.

This Category includes Ghost Hunting, Astrology, Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Astral Projection, and significant portions of Religious Apologetics.

As you can see, Lucid Dreaming and Ghost hunting don't even play in the same league.

Originally Posted by Xedan

God damn, you guys have been posting a lot. Well in response to this post, I see no evidence that lucid dreaming works at all. I myself have had lucid dreams, but I can't prove it. There are techniques for inducing them, but a person could just as easily just say it worked for them when it failed. Maybe in laboratory conditions you could monitor the brain or something for lucid dreaming, but I don't see how what this forum conducts is anything but a pseudoscience. We may have some logic to LDing, but we're only a rank or two above ghost hunting.

We know awareness is possible, after all we're aware all the time in waking life, so it's not a stretch for a non-lucid dreamer to accept the possibility of retaining awareness in dreaming time. And also lucid dreaming has been proved in experiments where subjects were told to blink their eyes in a certain pattern once lucid.

But that's quite irrelevant, because lucid dreaming is on a whole different level than any pseudo-science. "I think therefore I am", I don't think how this relates to lucid dreaming needs to be explained.

That kind of proof from experience doesn't work if you're making a claim about the nature of the experience, which is commonly done in paranormal claims:

"I saw something I can't explain, therefore that something must be [insert paranormal concept]".

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Well, I do appreciate that you took my thoughts seriously.

I rather doubt that you were truly "awake and conscious" in the situation you describe. If you had been "conscious" as it is traditionally defined, you would have been aware of where you were and that you were not dead. So, it seems that you were unconscious by definition. And anyone who has heard their alarm clock playing in a dream, or tried to answer it like a telephone knows that in the border between sleep and wakefulness, all bets are off. Of course, that doesn't mean you won't view your death with optimism and curiosity when it is imminent, but I hardly find it to be persuasive evidence that you will. Our emotional reactions to stimuli are seriously distorted in dreams.

You are right, of course, when you say that if there is no afterlife, you'll never know it. But that was never what concerned me. Rather, I suspected that when the chips were down, and death was really staring you right in the face, you would not be able to suspend your disbelief any longer, and you would never have come to terms with the possibility that your stream of consiousness might simply end.

I know what you mean when you say that when we are between sleep and awake, we're normally not completly sane and that we are unconscious and stuff but me, when I'm conscious or lucid before waking up, I don't feel all drowsy and still asleep. I can just litteraly jump out of my bed and it seems for me that I have been awake for a long time. This time, it was the case. Since it was my first time in an SP I tried to see how long it would take if I tried to move. I lasted around 1 minute but it seemed longer than that. Then I got out of bed to tell someone but realized everyone was sleeping and no one would care anyways so I went back to bed but was way too awake to fall back to sleep so I just waited.
But still, you're probably right that it's no proof I would react that way but it's my natural way to act to every day life problems. When its done, its done so if I was dead and there was nothing to do other than that, I would probably be curious about what would happen next. It doesn't mean its what's gonna happen.

And yeah, I guess everyone relativly goes crazy when they know there gonna die but I don't think I would stop believing. Actually, (still after that weird death dream) I felt like it had been a premonatary dream (or whatver its called) telling me I would die. It was a snow day (meaning there was no bus transportation to the school to the fact there was too much snow and ice on the roads or something and my dad would drive me to school) and I sort of had the feeling I would die during that trip but it wasn't (100%), just a feeling and during the trip, I couldn't figure out if I wanted to die or not, 'cause I was curious to see what hapened after you died and since I had already accepted to be dead, it was to me not so bad if I did die, I had accepted that. But then I told myself I was being suicidal and made sure I was ready to jump out of the car if we got into a car accident (lol, I'm such a freak ain't I but that dream had felt so weird, I can't explain it) Then, after the ride, this paranoiac thought completly left me and then at night I had a small disapointment to the fact I wasn't dead and would still need to wait a long time before knowing what hapened after... Which has completly left me too. This dream had been a very weird experience, lol. My point is, the feeling I had thinking I might die was still curiosity which I might feel in a real death moment but then, I would know for sure that I'm gonna die and so I'd probably freak otu depending what happens... These are all theories, I can't prove what my future reactions will be.

And anyways, if my belief left me, I wouldn't feel horrible for so long unless my death takes more than an hour which I doubt unless I die from old age but then I would get lots of time to get ready to the fact of death.