The Turn it upside down debate No.1 - ASTRAL TRAVEL AND OBEs - Skeptics and Believers swap roles.

[spaceexplorer]

The Turn it upside down debate No.1 - ASTRAL TRAVEL - Skeptics and Believers swap roles. PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE JOINING IN THE DISCUSSION I've decided, for a bit of fun, and to help us all remain aware of both sides of discussions, to try a little thought experiement. If all goes well, we'll try a different topic with the same rules. Ok the "Turn it upside down" challenge is as follows: A topic is chosen, in this case Astral Travel and OBEs. We will debate this topic, as usual, but rather than argue our own viewpoints, we MUST argue as if we believed the opposite to what we believe. So a skeptic becomes a believer. A beliver becomes a skeptic. I myself am normally skeptical about such matters, so I shall be arguing as a BELIVER for this discussion. Please try and take your role seriously, genuinely try to argue for the new side you belong to. Try to avoid being sarcastic. Seriously BELIEVE you have become the new role. ps. it's all a bit of fun, so try and keep it friendly. So to start the ball rolling: ASTRAL TRAVEL AND OBEs As a believer I've had many experiences that i'd consider to be OBEs, this had lead me to think that I can learn to astral travel. I genuinely think that the astral plane is as real as this world. I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on the matter....

[Xetrov]

Lol this is a nice idea but, I have no idea how I could be arguing for something when I have done extensive research into the matter to come to the concludion that these OBE's are a kind of (advanced, if you will) LD. If I were to argue for the opposite side, I would need to have evidence to support my argument, and as far as I am concerned, there is none. Of course I could argue with "fake" personal experiences like "OMG but I had an OBE once and it was so real"... but that's not really an argument as far as I am concerned. Maybe others have more luck trying ...

[Beeyahoi]

I'm down. I'm usually in the middle, a skeptic on some issues and a believer of others. I guess I'm slightly more on the believer side though, so I'll play a skeptic. Nice idea BTW.

[Souperman22]

Astral projection exists because...some people say so?

[Hukif]

Hm I like this, though I think you are missing the "agnostic" public, or the ones who believe something but skeptic to everything else, I suppose those should just decide depending on the topic. And for the sake of the thread. OBEs sound great and all, but are pretty much just a normal dream where you have a really realistic FA, it is not even lucid since you don't "know" you are dreaming. AP goes worse, it is not even a FA and doesn't need to be realistic, just feel "different" <.< And apparently, your thread won't be that sucefful lol

[benTENDO]

Astral projection exists because...some people say so? I can't seem to find any sustainable evidence to the existence of astral projection, but i believe it is true because i was told to argue against my actual views. Try to avoid being sarcastic. Seriously BELIEVE you have become the new role. I can't change my point of view because I am unable to AP, when trying their techniques I somehow fall asleep and start lucid dreaming..it's almost like their techniques are the same as lucid dreaming ones..

[Kuhnada29]

Astral projection exists because.....some people experience it? What's the point in this spaceexplorer? If you don't believe it why come in "beyond dreaming" and debate about it. I'm with Xetrov, there is no way i could be a skeptic on this issue because i've also done research, plenty of it too. spaceexplorer your what they call a "left-brain prisoner". Why do you hate the belief in afterlife so much? Is it that your afraid of the idea of living with yourself forever? Are there some aspects of yourself that you don't like? Why come here and try to convert people to your "misery". You mock everyone that believes in anything spiritual and/or metaphysical, but you yourself have zero experience to back up any argument you make.

[spaceexplorer]

Astral projection exists because.....some people experience it? What's the point in this spaceexplorer? If you don't believe it why come in "beyond dreaming" and debate about it. I'm with Xetrov, there is no way i could be a skeptic on this issue because i've also done research, plenty of it too. spaceexplorer your what they call a "left-brain prisoner". Why do you hate the belief in afterlife so much? Is it that your afraid of the idea of living with yourself forever? Are there some aspects of yourself that you don't like? Why come here and try to convert people to your "misery". You mock everyone that believes in anything spiritual and/or metaphysical, but you yourself have zero experience to back up any argument you make. Actually i spent a good deal of my life (at least 25 of my 32 years) following and studying spiritual subjects. So please don't assume to much about me. (and yes i've had seeming OBEs, seeming telepathic experiences, seeming shared dreams etc. etc. only i kept asking questions, i kept looking for answers, and didnt stop at the easy conclusions, and especially didn't stop just because it made me feel special, or like i had some kind of power) And as for left brain, actually I disagree thouroughly, most of my interests are very right brained, art, music, poetry, theatre etc. I'm generally not all that great at "logical" pursuits... my maths for example is dire. As for my "misery", I actually found that i could have a much more fulfilling life discarding chasing rainbows in spiritual traditions, and actually focusing on the direct, wonderous experience of the world as it presents itself. The mind blowing awesomness of watching a galaxy through my telescope, wondering at the mind boggling complexity and beauty of a flower in a summers meadow... and pondering the billions of years of evoultion that bought me and it together. This beauty and wonder, has literally left what some people call "spiritual" interests far far behind. Rather than thinking about deitys or mystic powers, that i can find no direct experience or evidence for... I can witness the universe in all its direct glory... without needing to add my own egos wishes to feel special or "spiritual" to the equation. I am basically a pantheist. As for the point of this thread. I think it's very healthy to try and play devils advocate to oneself. If one trys to immerse themselves in the opposite of ones beliefs, you can understand your decisions and beliefs in greater detail, and perhaps learn a little too. I find the idea of trying to revert my mind back to the days when i was convinced of the supernatural quite interesting. Trying to rekindle that blind faith and subtle conviction that is so alluring yet also quite empty. Don't assume i am not spiritual, just because I do not accept things on faith. I think it is braver, and more spiritual to face the world bodly and directly. Ego aside, witnessing things as they are, not how one wants them to be. Anyway, your question is off topic, and I request that if you do not want to try and see things more open mindedly and through the eyes of people you would otherwise argue against... then kindly don't get involved. ps. i dont hate the idea of the afterlife, I'd love for it to be true, but i'd also love for me to be able to fly, however, as a realist I have grown up and realised that some things, however much you would love them to be true, are simply not. If I can find a convincing reason or evidence in an afterlife, i'd be incredibly happy to be proven wrong. SO, BACK ON TOPIC... Often I have dreams where i feel very much as if i have left my body, is this astral travelling? It feels like it is.

[Kuhnada29]

Actually i spent a good deal of my life (at least 25 of my 32 years) following and studying spiritual subjects. What "spiritual subject" might that be? You don't believe in an afterlife..which is spiritual, yet you studied a spiritual subject for 25 years.... So for 25 years you studied something you didn't believe in? That makes no sense at all. Can't believe i took you serious for a minute there lol. Just stay in the illusion, your obviously not ready or can't handle for truth.

[Xetrov]

So for 25 years you studied something you didn't believe in? That makes no sense at all. Just stay in the illusion. Hard Wired, I can understand your sentiment somewhat, but really there is no need to start this kind of "fight" again. Even if you are 100% sure you are right (which you should not be anyway). So many threads I saw in the past weeks here have gone down that way.Im pretty sure we are all nice people here and would we meet IRL no one would start talking like "hey you with your weird illusions, dude you're so mistaken man"... point is, its so easy to start this kind of stuff on the internet, and besides, it was not the point of the thread. I do wish to make one small comment though on Spaceexplorer. Personally I do consider myself a spiritual person. This does not mean to me, that I am not skeptic. I do not stop at the easy answers. I certainly dont find myself special due to mystic powers (which I obviously have not). Those things you describe, the beauty of earth, nature, the universe, to me this also has a spiritual meaning. Not for everyone spirituality is like how you say it, seeking deitys or mystic powers. To me, it is about exploring the inner side of the Self, like consciousness, empathy, etc. Through this process I have come to the conclusion (but it is not a definite conclusion, as it could change) there is more to it than science currently can account for. The whole process how I came to this idea would be too detailed and lenghty to describe and beside the point, but I thought I would mention this anyway because so many atheists/materialists seem to regard anyone who is into "spirituality" as total fruitcakes. I do agree there are many of those around (who are like in your descriptions), but for sure not all are like that.

[Kuhnada29]

Your right Xetrov

[DreamQueen]

[Xetrov]

SO, BACK ON TOPIC... Often I have expereinces where i feel very much as if i have left my body, this is astral travelling! The experience feels real and the most easy explanation is often the right one, OBE's are real! Counter that, you skeptics!! lol.

[DreamQueen]

Hi everyone Right now my real body is lying in bed and I am having an OBE so I guess the proof of the pudding will be if this post really does appear on DV...

[Hukif]

@DreamQueen, OBE shouldn't allow you to move objects, so you just sleepwalked. @spaceexplorer, just because you feel like it, doesn't mean that you actually did, only proof for that would be if you got the name/adress/number/whatever from someone in the "astral", which I highly doubt <.< Also, you all suck at this too XD

[LucidFlanders]

Also, you all suck at this too XD They just can't adapt to what Space said, they need to act like they really are the opposite or it really ruins this thread. Swap roles, a believer becomes a skeptic, so act like a skeptic and try and rub facts into the believers face, show them the logic, show them why it really is fake. For the skeptics gone believers...Believe you really ARE a believer, you guys are doing such a bad job at acting. If you have to, go search for things a believer would believe in, show them WHY his stuff is true, make them argue with you. This is not that hard at all. I'm agnostic so i can't say anything.

[Hukif]

Why would a skeptic act like that though? It is simple enough to show how its wrong in "their" field for it to work. And Believers vary too, there are ones who believe in it because there was no other logic explanation, unless spaceexplorer meant to take the other side to the "crazy" extreme, in which case I'm the one sucking at it <.<

[LucidFlanders]

Then they really aren't open minded skeptics/believers.

[DreamQueen]

Excuse me but I actually think I'm doing a brilliant job of acting like a believer. That's exactly the sort of thing they do, ie give personal anecdotes and expect everyone to assume a supernatural explanation. Anyway, as you can all see my post is there so it looks like OBEs are real. (PS I know I didn't sleep walk coz I got my partner to lock the bedroom door from the outside and the window is too high for me to climb out.)

[Arutad]

Lol funny idea What's the purpose of it btw, fun only? It would be very difficult. Skepics are skeptics because their mode of thinking is different. I can't easily think up a way to transfer my mode of thinking to the believing side. I don't readily believe because I think in the way I think, and not vice versa... Ok an attempt at honest transfer. Although I can't be 100% sure that OBEs are real because I had no such experience myself, I'm leaning towards believing, because there's a big possibility that they are and that it's merely very difficult to achieve them. We can agree that OBEs can be described as a paranormal ability alike clairvoyance. If you can see your own room in the dream, it's clairvoyance, right? It has to be a very advanced type of clairvoyance to view all the surroundings correctly when your sleeping consciousness is moving through them. As it's obviously very advanced, you can't expect any newbie to do it, let alone accidental OBEists. Even a few hundreds of OBEs could be not enough, if those people aren't specifically working at enhancing their clairvoyant abilities or happen to have no talent. Their consciousness will be moving through their own fantastical and inaccurate version of their room and house, unable to connect clairvoyantly to the real thing at all. Judging OBEs only by taking failed experiences of clairvoyance into account isn't sound.

[Hukif]

Yes! Thats what I'm talking about Arutad! Making it hard, I didn't meant it like you were doing it wrong DQ, just thought it was too easy, that would be like someone posting "Just tell me of any scientist that says its true and I will believe!" Now back on topic. @DreamQueen, so you have your computer outside your room? Interesting, still in a OBE you aren't supposed to move objects, thats psychokinesis, how do I know you aren't lying if you don't even know what you are "doing" is called? @Arutad, but isn't it a little weird that there is nobody who actually is a master on it? Or are you suggesting that its because everyone puts their attention on the fake ones?

[Arutad]

@Arutad, but isn't it a little weird that there is nobody who actually is a master on it? Or are you suggesting that its because everyone puts their attention on the fake ones? You're making a sweeping statement when you say that nobody is a master of it. How do you know? If you or your friends can't do it, it's not a reason to say that it's impossible. It has to be rare. There's enough evidence out there about people who managed to report what they saw during an OOBE correctly, but you'll inevitably dismiss it as a row of coincidences, the only thing that would make you content is if you yourself had a personal proof. But that puts you in a vicious circle. You want personal proof, but you aren't working to get it, because you don't believe that it's possible. This way you'll never get it, all you can do this way is complain all your life that "there is nobody who actually is a master of it". If you're very lucky, you'll bump into somebody with rare clairvoyant abilities who'll prove it to you accidentally, but otherwise...

[DeathCell]

The bad thing about the internet is you have the ability to claim whatever you want, including what you've studied. I also laugh at the assumption that faith means you can't see the beauty of the world. Don't assume i am not spiritual, just because I do not accept things on faith. I think it is braver, and more spiritual to face the world bodly and directly. Ego aside, witnessing things as they are, not how one wants them to be. What exactly about you is spiritual? What do you do that you would consider spiritual? So those with faith must not face the world boldly and directly, another good job at showing your true ego... Witnessing things as they are creates an illusion for a lot of things, it's only through the use of our tools that we see the underlying truth.. You see things for how they want to be, as we all do. After all we are the final decision makers in our lives.

[spaceexplorer]

The bad thing about the internet is you have the ability to claim whatever you want, including what you've studied. I also laugh at the assumption that faith means you can't see the beauty of the world. What exactly about you is spiritual? What do you do that you would consider spiritual? So those with faith must not face the world boldly and directly, another good job at showing your true ego... Witnessing things as they are creates an illusion for a lot of things, it's only through the use of our tools that we see the underlying truth.. You see things for how they want to be, as we all do. After all we are the final decision makers in our lives. Deathcell, can you please either stop trying to derail this thread, or just smegging read what this thread is about and take part. I am not going to get into this argument with you. The point of this thread is about having a bit of fun, so please, if you want to get into meaningless arguments just take a hike. I'm aware you like to always argue with me, but it's getting really tiresome.

[DreamQueen]

Why am I not surprised by the responses from the 'believers'? Jeez guys, it's just a fun thread. If you can't see that then you have no SOH. Pull the carrot out for a minute, stop taking life so seriously and have a laugh eh?