i was directed to an faq here about lucid dreams and it mentions that as you try to fall asleep sometimes you'll go into astral travel. what is the relation of this to dreaming? what do you travel in, and how? thanks.
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i was directed to an faq here about lucid dreams and it mentions that as you try to fall asleep sometimes you'll go into astral travel. what is the relation of this to dreaming? what do you travel in, and how? thanks.
This should be in "Beyond dreaming", you'll get better responses there.
In my opinion, AP is just an overly realistic lucid dream, although I have never experienced one.
Moved.
AP has nothing to do with Lucid Dreaming. At least to me. Don't confuse the two either.
How do you distinguish AP from LD?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt
I have tried doing astral projection but could never accomplish it.
Hello, here are the differences between Lucid Dreams and OBEs.
-Lucid Dreams occur in 50%-70% of the population. OBEs occur in 14%-25% of the population.
-Lucid Dreams can conciously program their dream, whereas OBEers are usually passive observers.
-Lucid dreamers have an integrated body image, whereas OBEers view themselves as separated from the physical body, which is inert and thoughtless.
-Lucid dreamers have brain waves typical of dreaming, whereas OBEers don't exhibit dream-likebrain waves.
-Lucid dreamers view their experience as a production of their mind, whereas OBEers view the experience as objective reality.
-Lucid dreamers don't typically see their physical body, but OBEers usually do.
-After a lucid dream, the subject accepts the "unreality" of the lucid dream after awakening. After an OBE, the subject usually asserts emphatically that the experience was "real."
-Lucid dreams--like normal dreams--are not easily remembered, unless one is conditioned. Memoryis a key factor of having Lucid Dreams. OBEs, however, are usually remembered vividly for years, without prior conditioning.
Some very interesting information there. I was like others who thought that LDs were the same as OOBEs. Now I'm not so sure. But I think it is a matter of splitting hairs. I have had crazy experiences with dreams, including prophetic dreams and shared dreams. It made sense to me that dreams are "out of body" I mean, why not? Especially with shared dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by +Explorer+
I am an accomplished and experienced Lucid Dreamer. However, a few weeks ago I had my first OOBE directly from bed. I have had dream iniated OOBEs before but this was my first non-dream initiated one.
Here is my experience: I drifted off to sleep. I was probably in a deep Theta brainwave stage when all of a sudden I became aware of a bird singing. I knew that this was not normal, yet I wasn't dreaming unless I was dreaming that I was lying in my bed the exact way I was actually. As I listened to the bird sing I heard more birds, and more birds!!! Pretty soon it was deafening! It was like being in the Amazon jungle or the Congo on LSD! So many birds! Then my body began to shake like an airplane going through intense turbulence. I stayed relaxed though. I had a dual awareness of my relaxed physical body lying there and an Astral/ dream body/ shaking like a roller coaster. I had heard of this kind of experience before so I willed myself to try to leave my body. I sat up and tried to walk across my room but my legs didn't work and I fell down on the floor. I looked back at the bed and saw myself laying there. I decided that since my legs weren't working I'd return to my body and so I did. I have tried to repeat it but with no luck.
But I still believe that a dream is a kind of OOBE. In fact I believe that the mind isn't "in" the body like the brain is. More like the body is in the mind. This is from my own experience. In fact, like I said, I have had quite a number of OOBEs initiated from dreams. But I like the differences between the two I quoted from the above. This really interests me and I have not made up my mind yet.
Check out <a href="http://luciddreamyoga.ning.com">DreamTime</a> if you are curious.
good luck on making up your mind :)!
Thanks for moving this.
AP is dabbling in the occult.
With out getting into all of it, I would hate to see this site "go there" more than it already does.
and that's JMHO ..
The whole Aleister Crowley and The Necronomicon etc.
Astral projection is not occult. It is a natural ability therefore not making it occult. Occult would be things like ouija boards and tarot cards. Many people immediately associate astral projection as an occult topic because they think its crazy leaving your body and traveling to other dimensions. This is a God-Given gift and astral projection WOULD be occult if the only way to make it happen was through drugs and machines. But as you can see this can be done through meditation which is totally natural and we do it every night except we're unconcious. Except we just train our mind to remember and control those experiences.
Astral projection considered occult because of interpretation attached to this term. It implies that there is "Astral" as well as "soul" which in addition can leave human body. All of this points are very subjective. Though I would not say this is "occult" but "mystic" as occult suggest searching the inner nature of things, and it does not neccessary means existing of Astral or something, it just means using occult approach (as science means using scientific approach).
So, yes astral projection itself is not occult because this terms means the same phenomenon as lucid dreams but implies another interpretation, so it is better to use some more modern term. Lucid dreams, for example.
Yes I see how it could be occult because of someone actually seperating from their body. It depends on your beliefs. I believe lucid dreaming and astral projection are 2 completely different things. Science does not really investigate astral projection so that's why its shrouded in mystery.
APing and LDing are not related at all. You just happen to be able to do both while sleeping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyesu
You don't travel "in" anything. You are seperating your conciousness, your "spirit" or "soul" from your physical body and traveling to a vastly unexplored place called the Astral Plane. This is where all a persons internal energies (I don't mean the electrical kind) can be used to do amazing things, such as fly. Unlike LDs, it's not generally a place to go have fun, but instead a place to explore all the wonders and phonomena there, or if you're religious, become more "spiritually enlightened."
An AP is real. As in, it's not in your head. Any being you see there is a real individual like you or me, and the astral plane has laws of physics that can not be changed or broken. But the laws there are much different than here. If you wanted, you could even AP with a friend, but it's very hard to do because you'd both have to be APing at the same time, and since you leave your bodies in this world, you'd have to know each other's "aura" or "energy signature" very well to be able to regognize them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasos
I have a thread that's basically a crash course on AP.
Here You Go
Ignore the first post...the thread got a bit glitchy. :)
To be very pedantic - the term astral projection is very occult. The granddaddy of modern occult movements The Hermetic Order Of The Golden Dawn taught the technique. Aliester Crowley also wrote about it at length for his order (the A.'.A.'.) Crowley was a master of mediatation - his work "eight lectures on yoga" is considered a classic. If you compare both Crowleys methods with new age witers such as Robert Bruce you will find they are very similar (relaxation, breathing, circulation of energy, visulisation, transfer of conciousness, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasos
Bascally mastering AP is a prequestite of the earliest grades of initiation - in other words its a fundamental skill the occultist has to master.
Well, we should get one thing clear: this fundamental skill called LD or AP, i.e. these are two term means one thing (to be more precise, what they call AP is subtype of LDs which feature high level of lucidity and strong activity of left hemisphere which typically induced by WILDing). So this fundamental thing occultist should learn is LD.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildoctor
The problem with AP in my opinion is that it implies interpretation which have too much flaws and have no clear definition. It was acceptable and useful for occult purposes in the times of Alister Crawley, because any WILD would be called AP so there was not problem, but if Crawley would be living now I doubt he would give a damn about term "AP" and its interpretation, and would just use term LD without any problem.
Astral projection (though having occult roots, here you are absolutely right) now is not occult. Now it is mostly mystic term. New Age movements are mostly mystic, not occult.
Occultism is closer to science in its goal - "to get the knowledge and the bonuses". It is just that they have slightly different methods. Occultism used mystic interpretations earlier very often, because they were common, but now you may find modern occult movement which are pretty happy with using science as the base for their searchings and interpretations (the funnies example I found in one article about occultism is that modern "chaos mages" - whoever they are - study theory of chaos (math discipline) with a diligence which rare student have). So for occultism mystic interpretation is not obligatory but merely a tool.
Mysticism at the other hand is closer to religion. Both are about God, spiritual truth and such. Also it implies high degree of belief. For example, APers suggest to just believe in existance of astral plane and to the difference of AP and LD, though most of them often can not really distinguish one from another. They are not interesting in the searching of knowledge, they are just religious persons :lol:.
As for methods you described above, it is funny but you can use them for WILDing too (because it is the same thing probably?).
Good reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasos
I dont agree with everything you said though. Although researchers like Laberge beleive AP or OOBE to be a type of LD (albeit a type with key differences) you will find plenty on this forum and elsewhere that beleive that AP is much more than just a dream.
I personally havent yet decided - I experience both LD's and AP/OOBE's regulary. I prefer to indulge in the pure joy of the experience and dont feel a need to label it in any way other than that by which I have always known it.
I agree completlely that Crowley's method would today be classified as a WILD (albeit a V-WILD) and have posted to this effect elsewhere. However, Crowley despised dogma in all forms and so im not so sure he would have adopted the term WILD just because a body of people now prefer this term. He insisted that the individual make up there own mind using a scientific approach and a healthy sceptism to all phenomenon. You are correct about therefore about the occult's relationship with science "the method of science, the aim of religion" was printed on the front of every issue of Crowley's A.'.A.'. Equinox publication.
I dont agree so much with your argument that the "new age" is closer to mystism than the occult. Please bear in mind that most of the modern new age religions such as wicca and other neo pagan off shoots are direct offshoots from the main occult schools. Religion is "bad" in as much as the root of the word means "piety" - and the key tenet of the occult is to NOT be pious to anything - the individual is all. Mystism is term I actually prefer - it suggests an exploration of the mysterious - this may mean inner space such as the subconcious mind and/or stranger realms beyond self. The journey is therefore the important thing - how one chooses to label the experience is almost irrelevent, necessary only to communicate the result.