Thread: 5000 year old WILD technique. Very easy, and very effective.

Spaceexplorer,

I think you may be right about the location of this thread. The philosophical question is going into too much depth now, I think there are at least two 'camps' if you will.

1. The mind and therefore consciousness are located and operate completely within the brain and therefore dreaming is simply a fuction of the mind which is always contained within the brain.

2. The mind and consciousness do not arise within the brain but use the brain as a conduit between consciousness with the body being vehicle for experiencing physical reality. Therefor the mind is capable of existing independantly of the physical body, however at times dreaming can be located as a process of the brain interacting with the mind as above. (this does not detract from my appreciation of what is beautiful and divine in the physical world also)

So through your personal experience you are currently in camp 1, through my personal experience I am currently in camp 2. This is just the way it is and its not my place to try and convince you but its interesting I find how we are opposite on at least two points you mentioned and the consequences of this.

I've experienced more awe and wonder with a tool of science (the telescope)
than I've ever experienced through meditations. And i think the reason is because Im not focusing on me-me-me... im looking outwards at the wonder of which i am just a tiny speck of dust.
I've experienced more awe through meditation than through any tool of science, I also own a telescope and love looking at the moon through it :-) and as a point of trivia am about to embark on my thesis to a Master Degree in Science and Technology (I am not a full time student). Focusing on me-me-me is to focus from the perspective of the ego, which is enforced through the current western scientific view, our seperateness. So interestingly you can look inwards at the wonder of which your consciousness is just a tiny drop in the ocean... as you would know these altered states of consciousness transcend language (made up of words which are symbols that point to things other than themselves) and this means you are also looking outwards at the nature of the universe.

However, even the wisest man of our time, can only have access to the knowledge that has come before him. So, in that respect, I conclude that the wise men of old, came to thier beliefs based upon the world view at the time. Had they been born in our time, perhaps they would have become scientists not yogis.
I love the concept of this statement. As you would know from your studies the yogis, being a selfless lot, do not claim personal ownership of their wisdom. They claim it has arisen from the universal mind or collective unconcsious, brahman etc and has therefore arisen from somewhere beyond their conscious mind (and so the beliefs of their present day did not influence this and the beliefs of our present day continue not to influence their most pure and distilled wisdom. To the contrary their wisdom influenced and continues to influence world beliefs). However we are all capable of being scientists and yogis given the right set of initial conditions and possibly a dash of karma thrown in. So everyone experiences their own reality through their ego but the yogis claim to go beyond this...

So lets agree to disagree on this and respect the people that belong to the other camp, there are people here who have possibly experienced a reality beyond the normal waking confines of their physical body. Lets not seek to try and somehow prove this view false through 'logical deduction of the observable facts as defined by science' to try and convince ourselves our own view is true. Since dreaming has a place in both views then this is appropriate discussion on this section of the forum I would have thought.

Lets just help each other as best we can achieve what we are individually hoping to achieve.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Spaceexplorer,

I think you may be right about the location of this thread. The philosophical question is going into too much depth now, I think there are at least two 'camps' if you will.

1. The mind and therefore consciousness are located and operate completely within the brain and therefore dreaming is simply a fuction of the mind which is always contained within the brain.

2. The mind and consciousness do not arise within the brain but use the brain as a conduit between consciousness and body and a vehicle for experiencing physical reality, therefor it is capable of existing independantly of the physical body however at times dreaming can be located as a process of the brain interacting with the mind as above. (please let me assure you I do appreciate what is beautiful and divine in this physical world also)

So through your personal experience you are currently in camp 1, through my personal experience I am currently in camp 2. This is just the way it is and its not my place to try and convince you but its interesting I find how we are opposite on at least two points you mentioned and the consequences of this.

I've experienced more awe and wonder with a tool of science (the telescope)
than I've ever experienced through meditations. And i think the reason is because Im not focusing on me-me-me... im looking outwards at the wonder of which i am just a tiny speck of dust.
I've experienced more awe through meditation than through any tool of science, I also own a telescope and love looking at the moon through it :-) and as a point of trivia am about to embark on my thesis to a Master Degree in Science and Technology (I am not a full time student). Focusing on me-me-me is to focus from the perspective of the ego, which is enforced through the current western scientific view, our seperateness. So interestingly you can look inwards at the wonder of which your consciousness is just a tiny drop in the ocean... as you would know these altered states of consciousness transcend language (made up of words which are symbols that point to things other than themselves) and this means you are also looking outwards at the nature of the universe.

However, even the wisest man of our time, can only have access to the knowledge that has come before him. So, in that respect, I conclude that the wise men of old, came to thier beliefs based upon the world view at the time. Had they been born in our time, perhaps they would have become scientists not yogis.
I love the concept of this statement. As you would know from your studies the yogis amongst others do not claim personal ownership of their wisdom and so therefor being selfless, correctly observe that is has arised from somewhere beyond their conscious mind. However we are all capable of being scientists and yogis given the right set of initial conditions and possibly a dash of karma thrown in. So everyone experiences their own reality through their ego but the yogis claim to go beyond this...

So lets agree to disagree on this and respect the people that belong to the other camp, there are people here who have experienced a reality which does not involve their physical body. Lets not seek to try and somehow prove this false through 'logical deduction of the observable facts' to try and convince ourselves our own view is true.

Lets just help each other as best we can.

Well firstly, talking about ego, if I may quote your words "The philosophical question is going into too much depth now."
Unless you are a Mod, who cares.
(I know you were talking about ego in the larger sense, but this one was apt as well)
I am researching your ideas now and previously, which have been around for centuries and am very intrigued, as I have been having OBEs recently.
(again people will argue they are False Awakenings, but thay should also look on the other side of the coin...Are their False Awakenings really OBEs)
We should always keep our minds and eyes open.
Your point of view is refreshing and the lesser path believed, which I like.

And to Ajna and/or Space Explorer, If your mind and consciousness exist in your physical brain together (if Ajna was right in assuming),
Did we have a consciousness before our fetus developed our minds?
Or is our consciosness developed at the same time as our minds?

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

And to Ajna and/or Space Explorer, If your mind and consciousness exist in your physical brain together (if Ajna was right in assuming), did we have a consciousness before our fetus developed our minds? Or is our consciosness developed at the same time as our minds?

My opinion is yes we had a consciousness before we integrated into the physical body we currently inhabit, this consciousness is the same as the one you had in your past lives, the same one that exists(ed) is the subtler 'spiritual' planes and the same one you will take with you when you pass over yet again. You just experience it differently through the different ego structures that existed with the different physical bodies you have taken, and of course you cannot remember any of this with your conscious mind and the physical brains episodic memory.

Of coure I have no proof other than the ancient teachings of the many realised beings but given the verasity of the source and how much sense it makes once you have opened your mind I tend to see it as correct. The fact we cannot remember is no proof the above is not the case either.

Yumeria,
The thing with meditation is that you have to unlearn some things before you really start getting somewhere. One of these things is incessant mental chatter and its up to you when you really decide its not worth listening to and just watch it without attachment or aversion to it, then eventually it just goes away by itself. It always takes me 10-15mins to get past it properly anyway. Meditation is a journey with no destination where you are always in the now and there is nothing to achieve per se. So your technique will constantly evolve as your mind evolves and whatever stage you are at is perfect for you at this point. '

The biggest things that help you will be 1. motivation and 2. discipline. The motivation must be for the love of meditation itself and not for future gains such as improving your character or even to help you lucid dream, because then your not really meditating, your looking to the future which is only a soup of possibilities. If you meditate for the love of it the motivation becomes enduring. Discipline means doing it every day no matter what, even for 10 minutes, frequency and routine is more important than length or even technique at first. It does take alot of endurance to get these two working together in a positive spiral and its expected you will fall on and off the spiral so don't be hard on yourself, I fall off all the time... :-)

this sounds interesting, i'm going to try this tonight, so all we do is focus on the center of our forhead while we fall asleep and thats it? anything else? 0o

Originally Posted by Ajna

My opinion is yes we had a consciousness before we integrated into the physical body we currently inhabit, this consciousness is the same as the one you had in your past lives, the same one that exists(ed) is the subtler 'spiritual' planes and the same one you will take with you when you pass over yet again. You just experience it differently through the different ego structures that existed with the different physical bodies you have taken, and of course you cannot remember any of this with your conscious mind and the physical brains episodic memory.

Of coure I have no proof other than the ancient teachings of the many realised beings but given the verasity of the source and how much sense it makes once you have opened your mind I tend to see it as correct. The fact we cannot remember is no proof the above is not the case either.

No surprise we have no memory between lives. Convenient.
As convenient as you just have to believe in God.
And we have no proof of OBEs. I am getting into them and are sure they are OBEs, but to prove it is hard (even to myself).
Lastly, where are all these consciousnesses stored before we get them? Do we get a random one?
Are they in a primordial pool and we absorb one when our mind is developed enough in the womb?
I bet there is another convenient, no proof answer there.

Lets all just go on Faith.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

No surprise we have no memory between lives. Convenient.
As convenient as you just have to believe in God.
And we have no proof of OBEs. I am getting into them and are sure they are OBEs, but to prove it is hard (even to myself).
Lastly, where are all these consciousnesses stored before we get them? Do we get a random one?
Are they in a primordial pool and we absorb one when our mind is developed enough in the womb?
I bet there is another convenient, no proof answer there.

Lets all just go on Faith.

I'd like to ask some further questions too to Ajna and those who believe:

If the brain isnt where consciousness resides, what is it for?


Again, Why are only humans conscious to this extent if the brain complexity and size is irrelevant?


Isn't it hightly convinient for US that we are the creatures that just so happen, in this vast and unfathomable universe, to be the center of attention? those in the waiting room for enlightenment? Isn't it a strange conceit to believe this?

If consciousness/the mind does not reside in the brain, then why do physical chemicals like LSD and DMT have such a profound experience on us?

Isn't all this grandeous spiritual way of thinking, just a way to avoid the blatantly obvious and slightly disturbing fact, that we are just animals, who evolved larger brains, large enough to ponder our own existence, living on a rock, in an uncertain wild universe. Not the central characters to the story, but just the result of a process of physical laws and billions of years?
Isn't that more humble and realisic to accept, rather than us being the central role in a universe designed around us, with cosmic energys just for us to tap into?? What about the dolphins? the apes? the fish? the dogs?

This is my personal problem, almost all human spirituality puts humans as the most important thing in the universe. It almost always tells us what we want to hear. It all seems based on our egos, and avoiding our fears. Our fears that there is no bigger plan, and that what we see is what we get.

Reminds me of a carl sagan quote:

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I'd like to ask some further questions too to Ajna and those who believe:

If the brain isnt where consciousness resides, what is it for?


Again, Why are only humans conscious to this extent if the brain complexity and size is irrelevant?


Isn't it hightly convinient for US that we are the creatures that just so happen, in this vast and unfathomable universe, to be the center of attention? those in the waiting room for enlightenment? Isn't it a strange conceit to believe this?

If consciousness/the mind does not reside in the brain, then why do physical chemicals like LSD and DMT have such a profound experience on us?

Isn't all this grandeous spiritual way of thinking, just a way to avoid the blatantly obvious and slightly disturbing fact, that we are just animals, who evolved larger brains, large enough to ponder our own existence, living on a rock, in an uncertain wild universe. Not the central characters to the story, but just the result of a process of physical laws and billions of years?
Isn't that more humble and realisic to accept, rather than us being the central role in a universe designed around us, with cosmic energys just for us to tap into?? What about the dolphins? the apes? the fish? the dogs?

This is my personal problem, almost all human spirituality puts humans as the most important thing in the universe. It almost always tells us what we want to hear. It all seems based on our egos, and avoiding our fears. Our fears that there is no bigger plan, and that what we see is what we get.

Reminds me of a carl sagan quote:

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan

I would like to respond too if I may, unbiased ofc:

Firstly, "If the brain isnt where consciousness resides, what is it for?" - I would say motor functions and thought. I think it's the Subconscious we should be asking about, but as you say spaceexplorer, why would that be in an external-head place?

Next, "Isn't it hightly convinient for US that we are the creatures that just so happen, in this vast and unfathomable universe, to be the center of attention? those in the waiting room for enlightenment? Isn't it a strange conceit to believe this?" - Conceit is the right word if we are thought to be the center of the universe. Or were you spaeaking of Humanity as a whole?

Next, "If consciousness/the mind does not reside in the brain, then why do physical chemicals like LSD and DMT have such a profound experience on us?" - Great point !

Next, "This is my personal problem, almost all human spirituality puts humans as the most important thing in the universe. It almost always tells us what we want to hear. It all seems based on our egos, and avoiding our fears. Our fears that there is no bigger plan, and that what we see is what we get." - yet your mind does not seem open to things like this, or are you open but want proof like me?

Hope I understood this correctly. Maybe Ajna can respond with some further answers.
I find this topic very cool.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

I think it's the Subconscious we should be asking about, but as you say spaceexplorer, why would that be in an external-head place?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Conceit is the right word if we are thought to be the center of the universe. Or were you spaeaking of Humanity as a whole?

I was thinking it is a conceit for our spiritual systems to always put us at the centre of the universe, one way or the other. Same way we used to think the sun went around the earth.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

yet your mind does not seem open to things like this, or are you open but want proof like me?

You'd be suprised how open I am to these things. Don't think because im critical i'm not open minded. I really think that to be truely open minded you have to be critical, because you have to be willing to turn your back on something, even if you really desire it to be true, if the evidence dosn't back it up. How i'd love to be proven wrong, that is why i push people who believe so hard, because i require strong evidence, before i am willing to accept extraordinary claims. I push hard, because if something is true, it will stand up to criticism and testing.
So yes, I want proof like you. I would love to discover these things to be true. Truely love it. But im not going to accept something just because i really want it to be true. I'd rather be dissapointed and right, than live in a happy illusion being wrong.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I'd like to ask some further questions too to Ajna and those who believe:

If the brain isnt where consciousness resides, what is it for?

The brain? As I said previously, I think its the mechanism that allows the mind to integrate with and experience the physical world through the body.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Again, Why are only humans conscious to this extent if the brain complexity and size is irrelevant?

Of course its not irrelevant, all those complexities in the brain allow our consciousness to form a complex experience of reality as seen through the ego. You do know what the yogis view of consciousness is right? We are not talking about what they call the 'mental formations' here, as you are.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Isn't it hightly convinient for US that we are the creatures that just so happen, in this vast and unfathomable universe, to be the center of attention? those in the waiting room for enlightenment? Isn't it a strange conceit to believe this?

Have you really understood the deeper meaning of the eastern teachings? My view is actually the opposite of this...

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

If consciousness/the mind does not reside in the brain, then why do physical chemicals like LSD and DMT have such a profound experience on us?

This questions is best answered by Rick Strassman M.D. in his work DMT - The Spirit Molecule and Inner Paths to Outer Space. Your question almost answers itself. Both he and I believe DMT allows the disintegration of body and mind to occur at the biological level. This will obviously cause a profound effect when our conscious experience is no longer limited to the physical senses and our observer perspective of linear time and three dimesional space.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Isn't all this grandeous spiritual way of thinking, just a way to avoid the blatantly obvious and slightly disturbing fact, that we are just animals, who evolved larger brains, large enough to ponder our own existence, living on a rock, in an uncertain wild universe. Not the central characters to the story, but just the result of a process of physical laws and billions of years?
Isn't that more humble and realisic to accept, rather than us being the central role in a universe designed around us, with cosmic energys just for us to tap into?? What about the dolphins? the apes? the fish? the dogs?

This is my personal problem, almost all human spirituality puts humans as the most important thing in the universe. It almost always tells us what we want to hear. It all seems based on our egos, and avoiding our fears. Our fears that there is no bigger plan, and that what we see is what we get.

Your question about animals first of all is very common and usually found in Q & A sections of buddhist texts. Animals are definitely not seen as lower life forms but instead, and just like all of us, are equal sentient beings who desire happiness. Your views are quite nihilistic and deny the fact that humans can have an experience devoid of their ego selves. I used to share your view until I discovered some ancient wisdom and concepts such as oneness and the collective unconsciousness as proposed by Carl G Jung.

Anyone who has had an out of body experience or used DMT are accutely aware that their previously held notions and views of the universe and the nature of reality are severely limited. You just cannot compete with the direct experiences when you have them, and nobody can taken these away from you.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Reminds me of a carl sagan quote:
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." Carl Sagan

Thats exactly what I am trying to do. Its very ironic that we can both express our different views with the same quote. Most people in society cannot see beyond their satisfyingly reassuring delusion and experience the larger reality.

This debate is like trying to match a square peg in a round hole, your thinking involves a box which does not allow the room to fit these "grandious" concepts into it. And I am very suprised you have not mentioned Heisenburgs Uncertainty Principle, Eisteins Quatumn Entanglement, Dark Energy, The Higgs Field etc etc etc. These are scietific concepts which are now matching up with what some of the eastern traditions have been saying for thousands of years. These conclusions based on your much respected impiracle research, are what were able to prove the ancient wisdom for me intially and open my mind, and lead me from a science based perspective to the larger reality. Greg Bradens (who was Cisco's first systems engineer and used to have a 'sensible' view of the universe) book The Divine Matrix talks about everything I have been with the scientific evidence to back it up. If you really want some evidence get that book and Rick Strassmans books I mentioned earlier. When in a meditative state this all seems highly irrelevant also, all part of the drama.

As I said in my other post, we are not going to convince each other here, we would each need time to learn and experience new things for this information to digest properly. Lets agree to disagree and work on our own development.

Nice video spaceexplorer. Thats one young looking Carl Sagan! I like the guy and have read one of his books "Billions and Billions" I think it was called.

Myths are always symbols and symbolic, religion is a mechanism of control. I like the concept of Buddhism not being a religion but a science of mind and reality with its own theories and experiments to prove them. The word or 'signpost' "God" or "gods" has been so misused by the west it is a word that just can't be used now in these concepts and debates. When most westerners think of the word 'god', we traditionally think of a judgemental father figure, like that depicted in the renaissance paintings and in the bible or a fantastical being who we could never hope to touch. I'm not suprised terms such as polyathiest have emerged as these concepts should rightly be rejected in favour of the larger self empowering concepts like 'god' in the sense of the laws of the universe or a divine energetic matrix or that which cannot be known or fathomed with a conscious mind...

The Hindu's depicted in the video are also lay people and have their own symbolic views of the universe. However fully realised selfless beings such as forest yogis or lamas or bodhisatvas etc usually share a different view. It is a view that transcends language...

So for that reason lets go back to our WILD and LD techniques because I don't have much more I can say on this right now

For me it took around a month or longer before I finally started to understand how to meditate and what meditation was really about. But it is something I'm trying to improve every day, and I still have a long way to go. Imo, meditation, like lucid dreaming, is a skill everyone should try to master in order to enjoy life as much as possible..

Originally Posted by Ajna

Yumeria,
The thing with meditation is that you have to unlearn some things before you really start getting somewhere. One of these things is incessant mental chatter and its up to you when you really decide its not worth listening to and just watch it without attachment or aversion to it, then eventually it just goes away by itself. It always takes me 10-15mins to get past it properly anyway. Meditation is a journey with no destination where you are always in the now and there is nothing to achieve per se. So your technique will constantly evolve as your mind evolves and whatever stage you are at is perfect for you at this point. '

The biggest things that help you will be 1. motivation and 2. discipline. The motivation must be for the love of meditation itself and not for future gains such as improving your character or even to help you lucid dream, because then your not really meditating, your looking to the future which is only a soup of possibilities. If you meditate for the love of it the motivation becomes enduring. Discipline means doing it every day no matter what, even for 10 minutes, frequency and routine is more important than length or even technique at first. It does take alot of endurance to get these two working together in a positive spiral and its expected you will fall on and off the spiral so don't be hard on yourself, I fall off all the time... :-)

I can often shut up the chatter. But then the musics starts...
Thanks for the info, guys.

CC, I'm just wondering did you "open" the third eye chakra beforehand?

Yeah, I did, maybe why this technique works so good for me compared to other WILD techniques

Originally Posted by Yumeria

I can often shut up the chatter. But then the musics starts...
Thanks for the info, guys.

What music do you hear? A high pitch ringing sound?

How did you open it?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

What music do you hear? A high pitch ringing sound?

Ermm... No. Pop, rock, heavy, rap, new age, classical, oldies, folk, disco, spectrum games sountrack...
I imagine my audio memory must take up a BIG chunk of my pea-sized brain.

Something worth mentioning is that the dreams of a blind person are auditory in nature. Find me a blind person (blind from birth), who can astral project, or can see anything and describe it; then you will have overwhelming proof of the mystical nature of dreaming. As it stands, I've heard of no such thing - which is overwhelming evidence of the alternative hypothesis, that dreams are nothing more than a distillation/representation of what a user has witnessed in waking life.

Originally Posted by Phantasos

Actually, it is very doubtful that this will be sufficient to prove this ability to scientific community. One anecdotal evidence is not enough. To prove remote viewing (even if it was really possible) scientific way, serious work would have been done. For example, before LaBerge lucid dreams were considered by scientific community as New Age mumbo jumbo or just oxymoron, so he had to make large work and provide very solid proofs to prove reality of this phenomenon.

I completely agree Phantasos, my point really was that even such a simple self experiment would fail, let alone under the scrutiny of the scientific community. The crux of the matter for me, is that never are these "abilities" used in any practical way. Highly selfish of the remote viewers (if thier skills were true) to not be using thier powers to help out the Coast Guard, Mountain Rescue etc. etc. And before someone says "its because they wouldn't take us because they are closed minded non-belivers" (that classic phrase used by the paranormal community, which basically is just a hidden way to say "im better than you" or "if you dont believe what i believe then YOU are wrong" )
To counter the argument before it comes up, I think if you could really remote view or astral travel, you'd very quickly be able to prove your skills practically to those around you, even those who initially didn't think such things possible.

Originally Posted by potato991

Something worth mentioning is that the dreams of a blind person are auditory in nature. Find me a blind person (blind from birth), who can astral project, or can see anything and describe it; then you will have overwhelming proof of the mystical nature of dreaming. As it stands, I've heard of no such thing - which is overwhelming evidence of the alternative hypothesis, that dreams are nothing more than a distillation/representation of what a user has witnessed in waking life.

Very true potato991, also you would think that seeing as thier physical vision was absent that thier "psychic" senses would compensate. I'm not aware of any blind people who use thier psychic powers and 3rd eye to get around.

Glad other people think these things through too.

I don't get it, What should I encounter when doing this technique?