Liars and believers in Fairy Tales

[Xaqaria]

I've made a thread like this before, with no luck; so I'm going to do it differently now. I know Beyond Dreaming is for those who believe in the paranormal, but it seems to me that it is mostly full of people lying about actually being able to perform the paranormal. That's right. To anyone who claims to be able to "DreamWalk", I am calling you a liar. Care to Prove me wrong? What do you need? My Name; Zachariah Christopher White. My birthday? March 16th 1984. My location? Burlington Vermont. A picture? As well as a whole slew of more recent ones as well as more information you might need to enter my dreams or astral project or nightstalk me or whatever it is you say you can do at my myspace page, here. So there, I've put it all out there; exposed myself. I put it up publically so that anyone who might want to keep their secret identity safe can still attack me or whathaveyou while keeping their anonymity. Until someone enters my dreams and shows me that this is more than a childhood fantasy, I will from here on out refer to anyone who makes these sort of claims by nothing but the word Liar. I do this because misrepresenting yourself and making these sorts of outlandish claims affects the young and impressionable in ways that none of you seem to realize. It hinders the potential of someone who might spend time trying to do these things and thinking about them in general when they could be devoting that time to something more worthwhile, like lucid dreaming for instance. I'm all for talking about possibilities, but the one thing I hate more than anything else is liars. Don't be a liar.

[LucidDreamGod]

I know of a guy who claims to dream share, but he's always got some accuse, I'm not saying I know he's a liar, his excuses usualy involve problems in his own mentality, that I don't understand. But your right it makes sense that if someone should know how to dream share they would show the world, and definitly win a nobel prize for it, and change the world for purhaps the better making scientist aware that are minds can communicate behind distence, but I mostly suspect like you that there liars, you may ask why I hang out with a potential liar, because I was good friends with him on the internet (yeah thats right, not a good mix internet=even more possibility of lieing) even before he started saying he could do it and he's always been nice to me, I felt it was stupid to tell him off if I couldn't prove it no matter how much I doubted it, I almost did once though and I regret it. And if I could dream share I wouldn't be offended to be called a liar, intill I proved it over and over again that is, it's not even that hard to prove you just need a password and the conscious energy in the dream to allow you to say it correctly, you wouldn't even need to remember it then.

[juroara]

so smug and so sure of yourself for what reason do people have to lie? what sort of attention does it bring them? most people will just look at them weird, or say they are crazy. just because you haven't experienced something for yourself does not mean if someone else has they are lying. maybe their 'dream walking' was all a dream, but at least as far as they know, it was a real experience. dream sharing isn't a trick. a person who can dream share can't necessarily dream share with you. from what I've read up on dream sharing, it happens more often to two people who already have an emotional connection with each other. how on earth can you show the world? there are already people who have shared dreams and told their story. the world didn't believe them. its all the same. the experiences of the supernatural are personal, and you never really believe until it happens to you. I mean really, do we even have the science to prove that you can have absolute control over your dreams? We just believe in this because of what others have experienced, we put faith in that, and that allows us to experience the same. I mean, there are thousands of people who would think you of a fool if you say you can control your dreams.

[Xaqaria]

so smug and so sure of yourself for what reason do people have to lie? what sort of attention does it bring them? most people will just look at them weird, or say they are crazy. just because you haven't experienced something for yourself does not mean if someone else has they are lying. maybe their 'dream walking' was all a dream, but at least as far as they know, it was a real experience. dream sharing isn't a trick. a person who can dream share can't necessarily dream share with you. from what I've read up on dream sharing, it happens more often to two people who already have an emotional connection with each other. how on earth can you show the world? there are already people who have shared dreams and told their story. the world didn't believe them. its all the same. the experiences of the supernatural are personal, and you never really believe until it happens to you. I mean really, do we even have the science to prove that you can have absolute control over your dreams? We just believe in this because of what others have experienced, we put faith in that, and that allows us to experience the same. I mean, there are thousands of people who would think you of a fool if you say you can control your dreams. If you deny the fact that there are childish people out there in E-world that get a sense of satisfaction from getting people to believe they have supernatural powers, then you are as naive as those that believe them.

[LucidFlanders]

Untill this can be proven it's all going to be a merry go round. If you somehow have this happen then good for you, but it's a fact you wont be able to prove it, except to yourself, and whoever dream shared with you. This is more of a self belief type of thing. If you have it prepare to be laughed at, like all the others who said they have had it. Are they all liars? who knows, but if they aren't then there are some people who are. But anyway, like i said...it's a self belief thing untill science can prove it's possible. Anyone who denys this is a stupid idiot who should have his brain removed from his ass. The self belief thing, i mean. Not the dream sharing.

[Keiju]

can you show me proof that free will exists? until this is proven i wont believe you =] can you prove to yourself someone other than yourself exists in the same way you think you do? if you put your questions into perspective.... i think you'll find them quite silly :p this existence itself is some weird fairy tale, do you know whats going on? i sure dont but challenging someone to come into your dreams is fun i guess

[LucidFlanders]

I'm starting to think maybe people are looking to deep into things. How do they prove you exist? go visit them. How do you prove they exist? go find them. There really isn't a point in looking to deep into things when you can see someone. How do you know they exist? well, you will never know. BUT, you can see them, and hear them react to you, tat's good enough for me then going to peopleand telling them they don't exist. The only thing that doesn't exist is what we see, because we live in our heads and our eyes are not a 2 way thing.

[juroara]

If you deny the fact that there are childish people out there in E-world that get a sense of satisfaction from getting people to believe they have supernatural powers, then you are as naive as those that believe them. what supernatural powers? I dont see anyone ever claiming to have supernatural powers? im talking about a supernatural experience. and the large majority are PERSONAL. the average person having had a supernatural experience is not going to casually share it with anyone. most will only share it with others who they feel has experienced the same people make this cry all the time, that there are childish people making up supernatural stories for attention. but honestly I just don't see it in the supernatural or spiritual communities. they are such an insignificant minority. I feel its the other way around, to come with an attitude that "THEY MUST BE LIARS!" because there is no outer proof is childish. its just not healthy to have this mentality that the average man is compulsive liar. you need doubt first to call someone a liar. if your doubt is there is no outer proof, well duh. the supernatural is aligned to the spiritual, which is EXPERIENCED. forums about the supernatural, from what I see, have serious people in it. we don't hold supernatural competitions either like in the lucid dreaming forum, which just begs for liars to win some award. no one on any supernatural forum is waiting in line to put someone on a pedestal and adore them like no other for some 'supernatural power'. every now and then you meet a 'guru' of some kind who might be selling a book about how to do what they have done, such as AP. calling these people liars is silly too, these books are sold, reviewed and discussed on forums online. if it was the work of a liar than why would hundreds attest that it works? instead of show their anger? new age itself is strong because people have been able to teach others, a liar can not do that. Im sorry if I dont automatically assume the people I talk to are liars. I talk to people on an honest level. I assume first that they are like me, are being honest because they are honest about what they are talking about. I need something MORE to start calling a person a liar.

[kingofclutch]

This is exactly what I said in one thread. Then a ton of people got very mad at me.

[The Cusp]

I honestly hope someone shows up to whoop your butt, no offense. But would you even know if it happened? Unless you have killer dream recall, someone could pay you a visit and the odds are you wouldn't remember it.

[LucidDreamGod]

I don't beleive you can compare shared dreaming to something like proving you exist or anything else does. Thats like comparing a bottle rocket to a real rocket. I don't know as if I should call people "liers" but I wouldn't beleive someone who dream shares, defining beleif, is I simpley think theres a fairly high chance that that person can't do it, it doesn't mean I "know". Belief is a very flexable word like that, it can mean anything from 60% sure to 99% sure. Oh and the reason people would lie is the same reason todays tv psichics lie, havn't you heard of all those people that James Randi exposed, people who kept insisting they were real. It's not hard to see, people do it to make themselves feel better about who they are, I'm not going to assume someone is doing this though, I might not give them any major praise for it though. I honestly hope someone shows up to whoop your butt, no offense. But would you even know if it happened? Unless you have killer dream recall, someone could pay you a visit and the odds are you wouldn't remember it. Thats were the password comes in, you don't need to rememeber it then. If anyone attempted with me they could tell me the word I have, I've had the same one for many months back when I bet someone to dream share with me.

[Moonbeam]

I honestly hope someone shows up to whoop your butt, no offense. But would you even know if it happened? Unless you have killer dream recall, someone could pay you a visit and the odds are you wouldn't remember it. @ Cuspy. The recall thing can be a problem, that's true. It's not going to prove anything if no one shows up, Xaq. I'm sure you thought of that.

[Hazel]

I think it's an interesting concept, but I have to remain skeptical untill it is proven true.

[Oneiro]

Just to say that I think that the word "supernatural" is being wrongly used here. My dictionary definition is "above and beyond nature", which means to me that if something can happen, it is in itself part of nature, of the natural process... ergo, the "supernatural" cannot exist. I think "paranormal" would be a better word imo. I have had several lucid dreams where I encountered "real human beings" (by their own admission). Only two of these were of people known to me, and neither party was able to confirm the dream meetings IRL... but.. I had a non-lucid dream of a shipwreck at sea, in which I saved a friend and her two sons.. a typical generic disaster dream.. I got them to a floating piece of wood and we made it to a sandy beach, upon which I flopped exhausted and then woke up. The very next day, I met this friend in town for a coffee. Without me saying anything, she said "I had an amazing dream about you last night! We were in a shipwreck and you saved us!" She went on to describe exactly my dream. When I told her that I had had the same dream, she thought at first that I was making fun of her! So.. Xaqaria.. I understand your scepticism, but if I were you, I wouldn't rule out dream sharing. I'd sit on the fence if I were you.

[SourCherryBoy]

Hmm... I've never astral projected or anything like that, but all this reminds me of a saying: One has to keep in mind that people tell the truth for a reason... to tell a lie, one doesn't really need one. I'm not too sure about it, but it's definitely something to think about. I guess one needs to be skeptical to a certain degree, so nice work there But there is one thing that I wanted to point out. You expose yourself, you sort of put yourself out there and say: "Go on, I dare you!" But nothing will happen... Not because the mentioned phenomena don't exist, though. Nothing will happen to you because you are not afraid, you are not really vulnerable, you only seem to be, you even sort of pretend to be. If you don't believe in it, it won't effect you. Now I know this is something incredibly err... unscientific say, but that's what I believe anyway. This doesn't apply to everything, of course, but only when you're truly afraid, can you be hurt. But you're a skeptic without fear So no go, my friend. No one's going to invade your dreams.

[Omega Weapon]

Of course I agree entirely with you Xaqaria. No-one will appear i your dreams, simply because they can't, and it will not disprove it, however. But then again the whole concept of proving something and not proving it are entirely abstract in most situations due to problems like sense data, etc. It seems blindingly obvious to me, just from reading the posts on the matter that this clearly does not exist, if simply for the way people talk about it almost as if it is just a fantasy, and the obvious influnences from various popular works of fiction. Not to mention there is absolutely no evidence or any reason why it should be.

[Oneiro]

Omega.. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.."

[Robot_Butler]

Xaqaria, To get started, I'm also going to need your social security number, mother's maiden name, and a voided check.

[Xaqaria]

I honestly hope someone shows up to whoop your butt, no offense. But would you even know if it happened? Unless you have killer dream recall, someone could pay you a visit and the odds are you wouldn't remember it. I do have pretty good dream recall, and it goes through the roof when something extremely abnormal happens. I'm hoping that anyone who goes to the trouble to invade my dreams isn't going to sit on the side lines and act like a normal DC, that would be very disappointing . @ Cuspy. The recall thing can be a problem, that's true. It's not going to prove anything if no one shows up, Xaq. I'm sure you thought of that. Ya I know; proving a negative, yada yada yada. What it will do is undermine the credibility of those people I've seen posting in this section who claim they do it on a regular basis and all they need is a name and a face and some time to 'find' me. Just to say that I think that the word "supernatural" is being wrongly used here. My dictionary definition is "above and beyond nature", which means to me that if something can happen, it is in itself part of nature, of the natural process... ergo, the "supernatural" cannot exist. I think "paranormal" would be a better word imo. So.. Xaqaria.. I understand your scepticism, but if I were you, I wouldn't rule out dream sharing. I'd sit on the fence if I were you. Ahh yes, well at least you admit it is your opinion. It is my opinion that supernatural was the right choice. I don't sit on fences, they hurt my ass. I believe something, or I don't. I'm not one of those people that has a hard time changing my beliefs when presented with new evidence so I don't have to fence sit in order to keep an open mind. I don't believe this exists, therefore it is supernatural. If you care to change my mind, and are capable; feel free, I welcome it. Hmm... I've never astral projected or anything like that, but all this reminds me of a saying: One has to keep in mind that people tell the truth for a reason... to tell a lie, one doesn't really need one. I'm not too sure about it, but it's definitely something to think about. I guess one needs to be skeptical to a certain degree, so nice work there But there is one thing that I wanted to point out. You expose yourself, you sort of put yourself out there and say: "Go on, I dare you!" But nothing will happen... Not because the mentioned phenomena don't exist, though. Nothing will happen to you because you are not afraid, you are not really vulnerable, you only seem to be, you even sort of pretend to be. If you don't believe in it, it won't effect you. Now I know this is something incredibly err... unscientific say, but that's what I believe anyway. This doesn't apply to everything, of course, but only when you're truly afraid, can you be hurt. But you're a skeptic without fear So no go, my friend. No one's going to invade your dreams. Fear is all anyone seeks when sharing dreams with someone else? I'm a firm believer in the 'beliefs effect our reality' mantra, but I don't see the validity of saying that one can only experience this sort of thing if they already believe in it whole heartedly. Does that mean that the only people open to this particular type of phenomena are the gullible and weak minded who will believe in something before they have evidence for it? It seems silly that such an arbitrary nuance of physical law would exist.

[LucidFlanders]

Just to say that I think that the word "supernatural" is being wrongly used here. My dictionary definition is "above and beyond nature", which means to me that if something can happen, it is in itself part of nature, of the natural process... ergo, the "supernatural" cannot exist. I think "paranormal" would be a better word imo. I have had several lucid dreams where I encountered "real human beings" (by their own admission). Only two of these were of people known to me, and neither party was able to confirm the dream meetings IRL... but.. I had a non-lucid dream of a shipwreck at sea, in which I saved a friend and her two sons.. a typical generic disaster dream.. I got them to a floating piece of wood and we made it to a sandy beach, upon which I flopped exhausted and then woke up. The very next day, I met this friend in town for a coffee. Without me saying anything, she said "I had an amazing dream about you last night! We were in a shipwreck and you saved us!" She went on to describe exactly my dream. When I told her that I had had the same dream, she thought at first that I was making fun of her! So.. Xaqaria.. I understand your scepticism, but if I were you, I wouldn't rule out dream sharing. I'd sit on the fence if I were you. Yeah shared dreaming is not supernatural or else dreaming is also supernatural.

[SourCherryBoy]

Fear is all anyone seeks when sharing dreams with someone else? I'm a firm believer in the 'beliefs effect our reality' mantra, but I don't see the validity of saying that one can only experience this sort of thing if they already believe in it whole heartedly. Does that mean that the only people open to this particular type of phenomena are the gullible and weak minded who will believe in something before they have evidence for it? It seems silly that such an arbitrary nuance of physical law would exist. All good questions. Heh, I feel like the Mormon I had a chat with a few months back. That's all he kept saying - "Ah yes, good question!", "Oh, that's a very good question.", "Oh, hmm, hadn't really thought about it that way..." ect. And well... I guess that's the only thing you can say, really. I don't wan to bring religion into all this, of course. All I believe is that ... let's call her/him "the Architect"... wouldn't give a flying... err... saucer whether someone believed in her/his existence or not. Anyway, I'm getting way off the track here... This fear-business was mainly directed at you You're fearlessness, confidence and skepticism will be your shield, so to speak. But they might prove to be too thick of a wall separating you and that which you wish to explore. I hope I'm not talking in riddles here. But there are a lot of good question out there, indeed - can shared dreams take place? why do they take place? do certain conditions have to exist? But that's how it is in life. Some have and some don't. Some are and some aren't. Some do and some don't. Etc. "... who will believe in something before they have evidence for it?" It always comes down to believing. I mean - what's the difference between believing in something, or believing in the evidence supporting that certain something? Nothing is objective anyway, not even numbers or ratios.

[Draoi]

Xaquaria, I agree with you 100% that people that make such claims should be able to back them up with evidence, but if I actually had such abilities, I wouldn't want anyone to know about it. What you and you alone know is always the most powerful of charms.

[LucidFlanders]

Xaquaria, I agree with you 100% that people that make such claims should be able to back them up with evidence, but if I actually had such abilities, I wouldn't want anyone to know about it. What you and you alone know is always the most powerful of charms. Um, tell me how there can be evidence if we have not proven shared dreaming real? 2 people can have a shared dream but that's it. They know, and no it's not an illusion and it did not happen, just they dreamed it at the same time when both were seeing eachother and knew the password etc.