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Science and scientific evidence is completely valid
for the physical world and its inhabitants
lucid dreams, consiousness, OBE and metapysical things like that most scientist laugh at because there is no scientific proof therefor it doesnt exist in their minds
in a way they are right, in the physical universe these things do not exist and cant be proven by scientific technology because they are nonphysical concepts....they dont exist in our realm, these things cannot be measured.
That's where theology comes in silly.
As long as you take it in a logic context and apply a 'touch' of modern science I'm sure you could get something out of it.
Anyways, of course science isn't suited for it. We barely even understand the human mind! The very thing that leads us to question it's existence.
I think the reason why science cannot explain dreams is simple:
A famous philospher/scientist stated that every hypthosis has to be falsifiable in nature for it to be true.
Dreams cannot be falsifiable because only one person can see your dreams: you.
This way we cannot create theories about dreams, because they cannot be proven wrong or right.
I think its a bit of a cop-out to say science cannot explain dreams! I think we should at least try.
I have a friend who's a metaphysicist; he claims to understand it all, but when he tries to explain it to me, I cannot for the life of me understand it.
I think chemicals in the brain is 'responsible' to give us dreams.Quote:
Originally posted by Neil
I think its a bit of a cop-out to say science cannot explain dreams! I think we should at least try.
I have a friend who's a metaphysicist; he claims to understand it all, but when he tries to explain it to me, I cannot for the life of me understand it.
Standard answer of people who desperately want to believe in stuff like that.
I'm not gonna explain it all but I still have my opinions about things, its good that you have yours since different opinions are always good... Although I am not as arrogant to say that what I think is 100% the truth, and the others are wrong. I always try to tell that its only MY opinion, MY conclusions.
No! That's like saying that the individual notes on a piece of paper are responsible for the genius of a Bach fugue, or that individual bolts are responsible for the engineering masterpiece of the combustion engine!Quote:
Originally posted by Human
I think chemicals in the brain is 'responsible' to give us dreams.
No! The consciousness that creates dreams is holistic. The whole is infinitely more than the sum of its parts (ie the chemicals and neurons which function to make it work).
This doens't mean its magical, it just means that it needs a different way of thinking to understand it.
Maybe you are right, but I do believe the brain have a higher level of chemicals like serotonin while dreaming.Quote:
Originally posted by Neil+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Neil)</div>Quote:
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No! That's like saying that the individual notes on a piece of paper are responsible for the genius of a Bach fugue, or that individual bolts are responsible for the engineering masterpiece of the combustion engine!Quote:
I think chemicals in the brain is 'responsible' to give us dreams.
No! The consciousness that creates dreams is holistic. The whole is infinitely more than the sum of its parts (ie the chemicals and neurons which function to make it work).
This doens't mean its magical, it just means that it needs a different way of thinking to understand it.[/b]
Also, people who are suffering from hallucinations, etc. have usually a high level of serotonin.
Hence I still believe chemicals play a important role in connection with dreaming, etc. But maybe not the only factor, of course.
Some also believe that near death experiences (NDE's), is caused by overflow of chemicals like endorphin(es),- propably produced by the body to reduce physical pain.
Quote:
Originally posted by Neil
I think its a bit of a cop-out to say science cannot explain dreams! I think we should at least try.
I think there are many things that science cannot explain and shouldn't explain. I don't want my life summed up in a 'test tube'.
Why not?
Judging by the tone of your post (which is hard to do on the internet), you seem to be afraid of science.
Or do you just mean that you like the idea of not understanding everything so that things have a magical essence to them? There definitely is something nice at just looking at the world and thinking "Its beyond our comprehension." In fact if you take this approach, you can be comforted in it because you absolve responsibility for your reality. Its nice to just say "there are forces outwith my control". But why shouldn't we as humans try to understand these forces?
If you look at the great unknown and see it as an opportunity to expand human experience, it makes the world a more exciting place. I want to understand how the paranormal works so that we may use it. Perhaps whatever being created us (if such a thing happaned) gave us intelligence so that we could find out the answers ourselves.
Imagine if we actually understood how to contact the dead, or how to heal people using chakras. Imagine how many people we could heal emotionally and physically. Perhaps these forces are too powerful for us to dabble with - maybe even dangerous - but it is not the nature of all scientists to use technology wrecklessly.
Computers seem almost magical because they can do amazing things, and to a caveman, a computer would be regarded as magical. But I am the kind of person who likes to know how things work. I think this curiosity is something most humans share.
To me, its is perfectly reasonable to be a scientific person and also be a spritual person at the same time. They do not necessarily conflict. :)
This is almost my exact theroy. That is wierd.Quote:
Originally posted by Human
I do believe the brain have a higher level of chemicals like serotonin while dreaming.
Also, people who are suffering from hallucinations, etc. have usually a high level of serotonin.
Hence I still believe chemicals play a important role in connection with dreaming, etc. But maybe not the only factor, of course.
Some also believe that near death experiences (NDE's), is caused by overflow of chemicals like endorphin(es),- propably produced by the body to reduce physical pain.
I have to agree that chemicals in your brain are part of the whole dreaming process, and if you want to argue that chemicals happen to be a huge part of the whole waking life thinking too. However your imagination what you beleive and how you think also influences the shapes feelings and places in your dreams.
i\'d move this to beyond dreaming... kinda fits more there ;)
move something are you nuts! That would take effort and work and thow off my mighty plan to be lazy!
altough you could be right...
Chemicals play a big part in dreaming, of course, but that does little to explain what is happening, especially in regards to Lucid Dreaming.
Science is great, but we also must remember it is extremely limited, and can only explain what is on the surface or what is physically observable/measurable. It does not contain the language or the means to explain or discuss the possibility of dreams and their relationship to the metaphysical/spiritual realms.
...hrm...you must be really smart, able to judge a person based on less than 100 words typed on a computer in Europe. :PQuote:
Originally posted by Neil
Why not?
Judging by the tone of your post (which is hard to do on the internet), you seem to be afraid of science.
But apart from the sarcasm...i'm not scared of science.
There is a paper i wrote in the Philosophy forum...called
'THE SUBJECTIVE NATURE OF PERCEPTION'.
Go check it out, it explains my views.
I just think that science AND art should be used in 'explaining' the 'universe'. They are two cliffs with a chasm inbetween...only joined in some areas such as a bridge....anyway, just go read the paper!
:cheers:
--->Moved to 'BEYOND DREAMING'
But I actually said that it was hard to work out what you meant. And what's the point in posting words if other people can't understand them easily anyway?
Anyway, I will go and look for your thread.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lowercase Society+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lowercase Society)</div>Quote:
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Quote:
I think its a bit of a cop-out to say science cannot explain dreams! I think we should at least try.
I think there are many things that science cannot explain and shouldn't explain. I don't want my life summed up in a 'test tube'.[/b]
Why..... Would it destroy your romantical idea's about life, and stuff?
No, its definately better to think about 'souls' and stuff then to realise you're a bunch of particles moving around, true....
I think the more science learns about the brain the more they will be able to explain LD's, OBE's and other topics that are somtimes labled as an occult for %*@#!!* sake.
For example. I just learned some good reasoning for people who feel they have been obducted or have seen aliens. I do not mean to discredit them but those type of topics are usually put along side Lucid dreaming.
You v=can make your own opinions up about alien & such but I belive that Lucid draming is mearly a pysical capabilty that your body can perform. there is nothing paranormal about it any more than your brain reasoning. -just less evolved.
Here is the info:
http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html
this is a dificult area for science because it can't be set out on a table and poked at but that hasn't ever stoped science before
anyway we are all kindof doing are own scientific experiment with this site and owr discusions. to us LD is as real as any thing i see during my wakeing hours just harder to explain.
I agree with you HurloThumbro. It is not even a question wether or not is is real, and I tend to get defensive when somone says otherwise. - It is fact. It happens! open up your mind. :|Quote:
Originally posted by HurloThumbro
this is a dificult area for science because it can't be set out on a table and poked at but that hasn't ever stoped science before
anyway we are all kindof doing are own scientific experiment with this site and owr discusions. to us LD is as real as any thing i see during my wakeing hours just harder to explain.
Erm... science has explored lucid dreaming and OBEs. Lucid dreaming was proven by Dr. Stephen LaBerge I believe. It had to do with a device on a person who can do LD's brain while sleeping to monitor that they were in fact dreaming. They had a code set up so that once they were lucid dreaming they could talk to them in a morse code using movement of the eyes. This proved that a person can be concious during a dream. What happens is normally during sleep the most recently evolved part of the human mind called the cerebreal cortex shuts down. This is what prevents us from being logical during a dream. However if a person can manage to notice a problem with the reality of the subconcious's creation the cerebreal cortex starts to function again. I'm not entirely sure if they understand how the cerbreal cortex starts functioning again, it probably has to do with being in a lite sleep.
As far as OBEs are concerned a Dr. Monroe started an institute to research the phenomena. He did experiments where a person who could obe was put in a room with a bed (with the brain monitors). Either in a normally unreachable part of the room or in an entirely different room they had a random eight digit number. They had thousands of results where the person told them the eight digit number or the eight digit number in reverse. This is just my understanding though. :lol:
I have had these dreams ("alien abduction" type) and I would not classify them as actual or physical abduction, but I also do not deny the possibility of paranormal activity or spiritual/metaphysical activity occurring during these dreams or any other LDs for that matter... To not consider this so would not be "open-minded"Quote:
Originally posted by Howetzer
I just learned some good reasoning for people who feel they have been obducted or have seen aliens. I do not mean to discredit them but those type of topics are usually put along side Lucid dreaming.
I think we can all agree that LD IS real, otherwise wtf are you doing on this site :?: And for those scientists that dont believe in it, try it yourself!
On the question "how does it work"? nobody probably have a good answer. some say: its chemicals in the brain that does it!, but we dont know exactly what they do in our brain. Actually we dont know a shit about whats going on inside our beutiful brains. The scientists have no idea on how our brain stores information or how information is transported.
It is probably going to take a long time before we get a grip on how the brain really works and maybe we cant find out how dreaming works until then. But maybe we dont have to know how it works. Doesnt it add some excitement by being something that we dont really have a grip on? I think it does.
Yes you are write. To not at least consider annthing is wrong. As Einstien said - "Question everything"Quote:
Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer
- http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html -Quote:
I just learned some good reasoning for people who feel they have been obducted or have seen aliens. I do not mean to discredit them but those type of topics are usually put along side Lucid dreaming.
I have had these dreams (\"alien abduction\" type) and I would not classify them as actual or physical abduction, but I also do not deny the possibility of paranormal activity or spiritual/metaphysical activity occurring during these dreams or any other LDs for that matter... To not consider this so would not be \"open-minded\"[/b]
But I feel throughout time over hundreds and hundreds of years why has there not been one, not one case, that has been proven? Why would aliens be so incignito?
Maybe you could cross planes with them as your dreaming? :?:
Maybe they don't WANT to be proven to exist. If they allowed verifiable proof, we may also gain insight into who or what they are, or what their motives may be, thus giving us some authority over them - in a sense.
Another explanation may be that they WANT to be "known," but they are restrained from doing so...
Most of these cases I am at least skeptical of because cultures have hyped up the topic of alien abduction through the media and entertainment industries, and in doing so, they help to fill many imaginations and subconsciouses with all kinds of stuff...
My own personal experience has led me to believe that if these "aliens" do exist and they have a motive towards us, it is not a good one. I say this because almost every time I have confronted them in my LDs, particular ones are intent on manipulating emotions and causing fear, guilt, and or confusion. I'm not saying they're ALL bad, but it's important to discern...
Those who believe there are psychological explanations for "alien abductions/confrontations may think this view is idiocy or.... I am inclined to believe otherwise since many times LDs and "visions" are more real than waking experiences - and sometimes, like you suggested, spiritual realms or planes sometimes overlap with the physical realm. I don't like to talk much about these, except for the sake of those who have experienced these to be encouraged and not despair.
I do think that science has some good contributions, but studies of LDing are seriously lacking, especially in their theoretical basis.
Isn't that the truth :!: But why?. I can't inagine why science wouldn't want to further study such a phenominon.Quote:
Originally posted by evangel
I do think that science has some good contributions, but studies of LDing are seriously lacking, especially in their theoretical basis.