Thread: OBE Skeptics.

I have a picture of my now dead dog that has a face on the forehead. Obviously it was from the camera but i found it weird....i zoom in and i see several more.

http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?i...1051121oz0.jpg

Check between the eyes. You wont know it's there untill you see it, then when you see it you never miss it.

Make of it as you will, but it's probably just the camera....i doubt "spirits" can be seen on cameras.

TELL ME THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A FACE TO YOU!

Originally Posted by Rainman

Just that no scientific law/theory/whatever can be proven as certain. All scientific "knowledge" is based on other previous "knowledge", and all scientific "knowledge" is based on the fact that there have not yet been any counter examples, and until there is a counter example, we assume that it is true how it stands.

Not true, sir.

In order for a SCIENTIFIC FACT to be a SCIENTIFIC FACT, it HAS to have "falsifiability" -- Definition from Wikipedia:

Falsifiability is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that it is capable of being disproved under hypothetical circumstances.

So in order for something to be scientifical, you have to be able to prove it wrong -- whether you can do that wrong-proving experiment or not.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Mind posting it?

that was a joke but I wouldn’t normally trust any pictures of the "paranormal" unless i took them myself. its just that hoaxes seem to be a global hobby

but i do believe that further research into the fields of NDEs and OBEs are providing evidence that could suggest survival after clinical death. In fact an American NDE study led by Dr Bruce Greyson is due to conclude within the next couple months.

skeptics can't handle it!!

Originally Posted by space-cadet

skeptics can't handle it!!

Skeptics can handle it, it is a matter of wanting to come to terms with the true nature of things.

I will willingly continue to ask questions and scrutinize everything until things come to clarity and true nature.

This does not make any indication of my beliefs or nay-saying; it is a matter of desiring to come to mutual understanding and social providence. I venture for the truth, nature, and actuality of nature. To do otherwise is to live dogmatically, blind, and naive.
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the truth is you''ll find-out someday and you'll be in for a massive shock, that i'm certain!
wait and see.your tiny minds cannot comprehend the afterlife thus it cannot exist. you're extremely selfish.

hard nuts to crack are the skeptics. i reckon they're scared

Originally Posted by braindead

hard nuts to crack are the skeptics. i reckon they're scared

You can be faithful and still be skeptical. Otherwise we would believe every single thing told to us and be the most naive beings possible.

Originally Posted by space-cadet

the truth is you''ll find-out someday and you'll be in for a massive shock, that i'm certain!
wait and see.your tiny minds cannot comprehend the afterlife thus it cannot exist. you're extremely selfish.

How can you be certain? Perhaps you will be in shock.

Do not make the mistake of being pretentious by saying that only skeptics and others (ie. "your tiny minds..") cannot comprehend something when you yourself are also subject to the incapability to comprehend anything after death. The fact is, you share the same human perspecacity for the afterlif as anyone else.

Further, how is anyone being extremely selfish by asking to find the truth?
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Goodluck with the whole "truth search". The only proof is a persons proof, which may or may not be the brain. the truth is, we don't know, we will never know in our lifetimes if ever. We only look at our human logic and that's what we go by. As weird as "when i die i will go someplace else" sounds and feels unrealistic and makes us doubt that it is true that we are just using our logic we have known our lives. The truth is unknown, just like how we first started on earth and what happened. You can't be 100% certain of something. Wow neurons in your brain going off, means nothing except what we wanna believe it means...science goes 'it's just the brain" and as it may be part of the brain, what makes them 100%right? maybe there is something they are not seeing, hmmm? like seeing a toy with a string to make it talk (a talking doll), you go "it says something so that's all it probably has to say" then BOOM there is another thing it says. Nobody knows what happens.

Believe what you want to believe, search for what you want to search, find your personal proof that will keep you out of doubt untill you die and know for sure, or don't if you catch my drift. We are still primitive so to speak, you don't expect us to understand everything there is to know...it's like going 5 years into seeing space and what it is and thinking you know everything there is to know about it......only to later on find new things you could not see before which all of a sudden makes sense. People like to think they know everything there is to know, but their just sad people.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Goodluck with the whole "truth search". The only proof is a persons proof, which may or may not be the brain. the truth is, we don't know, we will never know in our lifetimes if ever. We only look at our human logic and that's what we go by. As weird as "when i die i will go someplace else" sounds and feels unrealistic and makes us doubt that it is true that we are just using our logic we have known our lives. The truth is unknown, just like how we first started on earth and what happened. You can't be 100% certain of something. Wow neurons in your brain going off, means nothing except what we wanna believe it means...science goes 'it's just the brain" and as it may be part of the brain, what makes them 100%right? maybe there is something they are not seeing, hmmm? like seeing a toy with a string to make it talk (a talking doll), you go "it says something so that's all it probably has to say" then BOOM there is another thing it says. Nobody knows what happens.

What I was trying to say is that if you adhere to uncertainity and paranormal possibilities, then anything anyone says can be taken as factual. Even as an advocate for the uncertain, are you not the least bit skeptical if someone says, "I jumped off a building and then flew.. not in a dream, for real!"? I would imagine that you would be. Even if you believed in the possibility of telekinesis, you would still like to see demonstrations of it in order to fully experience and believe that the person who claims to be able to do it, can actually do it.

Is that wrong to say? Should I believe everything that anyone says because "we are never 100% certain of anything"? No, I will ask them to show me, etc. I think that is fair. If you claim to have telekinetic powers, I would like to see it. That does not mean I disbelieve or believe in the ability - I simply would like to see it in order to believe the one claiming to be able to do so.

Believe what you want to believe, search for what you want to search, find your personal proof that will keep you out of doubt untill you die and know for sure, or don't if you catch my drift. We are still primitive so to speak, you don't expect us to understand everything there is to know...it's like going 5 years into seeing space and what it is and thinking you know everything there is to know about it......only to later on find new things you could not see before which all of a sudden makes sense. People like to think they know everything there is to know, but their just sad people.

First of all, as an advocate for empiricism, I hardly think I know everything or think that we ever can. However, I do believe there are grounds for pragmatism - even in adherence to uncertainity. Like I said earlier, even in adherence to uncertainity and the possibility that there is always a confoudning variable that throws, what appears to be faciticity, into uncertainty - we still want to live our lives by some practical means that allows us to understand and question things around us.

If we follow the rules of adhereing to uncertainty in all context, then you should also believe everything anyone says. In that case, I am God. Are you going to deny that? It is possible that I am, so does that mean you should believe it? No. But I am saying it and you can never be 100% certain that I am or am not. So, you have to make a choice - believe everything you are told, or use some reason to filter out the nonsense or simply unpractical. (By unpractical I mean that even if I am right about being God or not, it will likely make no difference in the course of our following actions).

On an end note, if you were referring to me as "sad" people for thinking that I know everything, I will repeat, I do not think I know everything or event want nor think it possible. The point of "skepticism" is to reach a mutual understanding and pragmatic approach to life. You are the one making reference to the idea that we can never know anything and thus, no one should claim to know anything, but then follow to give no practical means of living or ethical system in order to function as a human being. When making such pretentious statements, at least follow up with what these "sad" people ought to think instead of desperately trying to reach beyond your own context.
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Originally Posted by sivason

Let skeptics argue that OBE dose not exist, they say we can't prove it. There is absolutely no proof lucid dreams exist!!! I will say it again! No PROOF lucid dreams exist!!! They do and so do OBE but who needs to prove it, let them limit their own experiance, you know what you experiance.

Proof of Lucid Dreaming:
http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html

To argue otherwise is to argue the certainty of anything in life. If this is the case, then we can never know that we know nothing. Advocating this, what practical means do you propose to live your life by? If you do not believe in anything or the possibility of knowing anything, then you ought to have a suggested means of living, deciding ethical matters, and taking responsibility for your social life.
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I wasn't meaning to you O'nus, i was just talking out loud. I'm alittle skeptical, and believe. I used to be a believer untill i came here to DV and learned what the brain can do. Though some things i will still believe no matter what but i'd take the skeptisism because i'm not all knowing. I didn't mean you think you know everything, i ment people in general who learn some new trick and think they know it all if you know what i mean.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I wasn't meaning to you O'nus, i was just talking out loud. I'm alittle skeptical, and believe. I used to be a believer untill i came here to DV and learned what the brain can do. Though some things i will still believe no matter what but i'd take the skeptisism because i'm not all knowing. I didn't mean you think you know everything, i ment people in general who learn some new trick and think they know it all if you know what i mean.

Oh I see what you mean.

Though, your comments are subject to contradiction:
"Though some things i will still believe no matter what"
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"i ment people in general who learn some new trick and think they know it all"

Does this mean that you will believe in something even if there is empirical, logical, and reasonable evidence against claim X? (I am not sure what you are referring to)
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No, i'll half believe it.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

No, i'll half believe it.

People once said they fully believe in Jove, Zeus, and Thor. Those tales have been nullified and lone-gone. Is it not possible that what you are referring to could have the same substance? Where it could potentially be proven beyond reasonable doubt?

For example; if we could share the consicousness of a God on some miraculous reason and suddenly you are shown the nature of the world where many beliefs you held dear ar proven wrong; would you still "half-believe" it?

(I understand that sharing consciousness with God is highly unlikely, but my point is that we have certainty of something beyond doubt)
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That's hard to answer truthfully, we know nothing of our past ions ago except what people passed down in the ages, we didn't have the so called "proof" people love to have. Here is one...the bible. Passed through the ages, how much was changed to fit better in mans belief or thoughts. Get abunch of people and whisper something in their ear, they pass it along around the circle back to you and what you hear is different then what you started, i know because i've done that many times.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

That's hard to answer truthfully, we know nothing of our past ions ago except what people passed down in the ages, we didn't have the so called "proof" people love to have. Here is one...the bible. Passed through the ages, how much was changed to fit better in mans belief or thoughts. Get abunch of people and whisper something in their ear, they pass it along around the circle back to you and what you hear is different then what you started, i know because i've done that many times.

Well yes, but I am asking in the case that we have certainty.
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I probably would fully believe it, i dunno. Would you doubt, or believe it? I probably sound hypocritical if i did accept it after going after people who fully believe in the things they did.

I do not believe in OBE's. I believe an OBE is just a dream which you imagine to be real.

However, I am open to being proven wrong. If I someone can provide substancial evidence to prove me wrong, I will conceded and admit that OBEs exist.

I believe in science.

I beleive in OBEs since I've had them... but I beleive them just to be really weird dreams and not spiritual at all. Would you class me as a skeptic?

I humbly request proof. Something that has followed the rigor of the scientific method, using controls.

Originally Posted by Jamoca

I do not believe in OBE's.

your in good company then. a good portion of christians deny the existence of OBEs and NDEs because they dont fall in line with literal bible interpretations

Originally Posted by Seeker

I humbly request proof. Something that has followed the rigor of the scientific method, using controls.

Agreed. I have an open mind, but will not believe it until a controlled test has been carried out showing it.


Oh, and that dog picture, really, really is stretching it. You can find faces made of reflection of light etc everywhere. Hell, I can see one in the screen now.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Oh, and that dog picture, really, really is stretching it. You can find faces made of reflection of light etc everywhere. Hell, I can see one in the screen now.

Ditto. The chances of finding a face in a picture, given the number of pictures we deal with through our whole lives, are way higher than you imagine. But your particular example was just trying to see what isn't there. It doesn't take much to see three dots as two eyes and a mouth.