Thread: DEBATE: OBE’s (astral projection) V.S WILD’s

Can someone please explain to me what the difference is? I’ve had several WILD’s/OBE’s and they are definitely more intense than a regular lucid dream (because you come from a conscious state.) However, I have trouble believing in an ‘astral plane’, to me a WILD and an OBE are the exact same thing. I even purchased a book on Astral Projection and it was full of barely legible new-age propaganda (ie: eliminating meats from your diet etc.). In Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming scientist and author Stephen Laberge even discredits astral projection. This isn’t a post to bash some of your beliefs, but I am genuinely interested into any argument or proof you feel you have that makes astral projection real/different from WILD’ing.

I've been wondering about the same thing. Some time ago I thought I had an astral projection but now I don't know anymore... There are theories that say your dreams happen in the astral plane, other say it's all just in your mind. I guess there's no way to know for sure...

OBE and AP are different. It's kind of hard to know if AP is real considering i read they are similar to LD, which both are thought base.

Ok here's somethings I've gathered over the past year. When I first learned about lucid dreaming, I also learned about astral projection.

Most WILDs begin as ethereal projections. Ethereal plane is supposed to be an overlay of the physical plane. Its characteristics are supposed to be based on the energy of matter I believe. Characteristics of a ethereal projection: you feel very heavy, have difficulty moving around, going through objects is very difficult, sight is pretty blurry. This is the lowest form of a projection that one would be able to achieve (or closest to the physical plane).

Then there is the transition (not sure if there is a plane for this) between the ethereal plane and astral plane. Again, you are in your room/house, neighborhood - all familiar places that closesly represent the physical plane. Except this time you can move around easily, have clear vision, and may even run into other beings. Dreams take place here.

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here. Not exactly sure how to get here from the ethereal plane, but one way I read was trying to get sucked through a vortex of some sort, or by "raising your frequency" - everytime I try this, I get sent back into sleep paralysis.

Then there's some other plane above the astral plane, which I didn't bother reading about.

I'm not saying any of this is true, this is just what I have gathered. Most of my WILDs would fit into the "transition" where I'm in my neighborhood pretty much. I've tried jumping through mirrors - and have been sucked through tunnels rapidly, but I've never reached the end of them. I've also had those eps where I feel very heavy, and can barely move. Have never had any validations yet.

It'll be very hard to validate an OBE because there are no cases where you actually travel the physical plane. The ethereal plane is connected to the physical plane, but there is also the "fact" that thoughts to manifest in the ethereal plane, so if you look a card on a table, if you or your subconscious has any "thought" as to what it might be, that can affect what you see. Supposidly you can only travel the physical out of body when you die in the form a ghost, but I'd imagine it must really suck to be a ghost, because when you look at the pattern, there's: really cool astral plane (awesome dream) >> pretty cool ethereal plane (awesome dream but common setting) >> shitty ethereal projection (blurry, slow, heavy) >> ???

Awesome post! I’ve gone into this crappy ethereal plane at least 6-7 times. It’s hard to move and my sight is blurry etc. My opinion on this is that my brain is not quite in the REM state so perhaps it’s having trouble forming imagery etc. Whenever I jump into this stage it’s at the beginning of the night or before a nap when I hadn’t slept yet. However, I have crisp and clear WILD’s when I wake back up and go to sleep.

Originally Posted by blade5x

Ok here's somethings I've gathered over the past year. When I first learned about lucid dreaming, I also learned about astral projection.

Most WILDs begin as ethereal projections. Ethereal plane is supposed to be an overlay of the physical plane. Its characteristics are supposed to be based on the energy of matter I believe. Characteristics of a ethereal projection: you feel very heavy, have difficulty moving around, going through objects is very difficult, sight is pretty blurry. This is the lowest form of a projection that one would be able to achieve (or closest to the physical plane).

Then there is the transition (not sure if there is a plane for this) between the ethereal plane and astral plane. Again, you are in your room/house, neighborhood - all familiar places that closesly represent the physical plane. Except this time you can move around easily, have clear vision, and may even run into other beings. Dreams take place here.

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here. Not exactly sure how to get here from the ethereal plane, but one way I read was trying to get sucked through a vortex of some sort, or by "raising your frequency" - everytime I try this, I get sent back into sleep paralysis.

Then there's some other plane above the astral plane, which I didn't bother reading about.

I'm not saying any of this is true, this is just what I have gathered. Most of my WILDs would fit into the "transition" where I'm in my neighborhood pretty much. I've tried jumping through mirrors - and have been sucked through tunnels rapidly, but I've never reached the end of them. I've also had those eps where I feel very heavy, and can barely move. Have never had any validations yet.

It'll be very hard to validate an OBE because there are no cases where you actually travel the physical plane. The ethereal plane is connected to the physical plane, but there is also the "fact" that thoughts to manifest in the ethereal plane, so if you look a card on a table, if you or your subconscious has any "thought" as to what it might be, that can affect what you see. Supposidly you can only travel the physical out of body when you die in the form a ghost, but I'd imagine it must really suck to be a ghost, because when you look at the pattern, there's: really cool astral plane (awesome dream) >> pretty cool ethereal plane (awesome dream but common setting) >> shitty ethereal projection (blurry, slow, heavy) >> ???

According to my research this is really just the misconception of early pagans to explain their natural world. They even imagined up elemental creatures that fought amongst themselves invisibly to explain phenomena such as lightning. Granted, there is still a lot of evidence of an etheral plane and I have at least two friends who swear on their families that they'd been to the astral plane. I think the possibility of a multi-layered parallel universe is true, but I think dreams are just the natujral evolutionary solution as to what to do with your consciousness when your body needs rest.

Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here.

I once woke up to a place field with lots of giraffes I must be in the ethereal plane.

Originally Posted by wendylove

I once woke up to a place field with lots of giraffes I must be in the ethereal plane.

You mis-read :p

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here.

Sigh... A lot of the facts about OBE's and astral projection have been twisted by books written by idiots trying to make a buck. If you want a book about this sort of thing by a qualified author, read "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce. In the meantime I will try to clear up some of the confusion about OBE's.

First of all, I can very easily understand why people would doubt APs or OBEs as a reality, because they are similar to that of a WILD. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong (because i'm quite new to LDing) but a WILD is entering a lucid dream from consciousness, yes? During an astral projection, at no point are you unconscious. Most commonly, astral projection is induced by sleep paralysis, which is done through meditation.

Upon achieving sp (or a deep trance-state), you are then able to separate your primary active conscious from your physical body. During this process, your mind's conscious copies itself, so that you are still able to function on a physical level, even though your primary conscious may be present in your astral or ehterIC (not ethereal) form. This can cause a mental bilocation known as the mind-split effect, which I will be glad to explain if someone asks.

Astral projection has similar qualities to that of a lucid dream, but it is quite different. If experiencing an AP, there would be no question that that's what it was. The sensations you feel going in to an AP are physical, and a bit scary/unnerving the first time you do it. The process of getting out (APing) is nothing like a WILD.

People confuse LDing with an OBE because during most OBEs, your astral/etheric body is projected to the astral plane, which is an environment where your thoughts determine the reality of the environment, similar to that of a lucid dream. The only difference is that, (as far as I understand) in a lucid dream, things only change if you will them to. In the astral plane, your environment is altered by your thoughts AS THEY COME which means it can happen against your efforts. People find that their fears become present during an AP because of this.

The similarities exist because when you dream, it's in a way, an OBE. the "dreamstate" or "dreamworld" in fact IS an internalized version of the astral plane. that does not mean it is the astral plane! it means that your mind sort of replicates one for you only. In the astral plane, you can interact with other people/entities in it.


I am only posting this to spread information. I would prefer not to be flamed by rude skeptics. I don't mind if people disagree with what I'm saying cause everyone is wrong at some point or another, but if you do, please be polite about it. Thanks, and I hope someone got something out of this reply. Hope it helps

Rainman, thanks for the lengthy reply.

First off, what you are describing as astral projection still seems to be the same thing as what I call a WILD. At no point when doing a WILD are you unconscious, hence why it’s called a “wake-induced” lucid dream. In fact, the goal of a WILD should be to either:

A) get into sleep paralysis
B) go straight into a dream

When I WILD, I feel intense vibrations and often times feel like I’m falling out of my body. I have also successfully gone from the sleep paralysis stage to the ‘OBE’ stage. I generally find myself on the floor next to my bed. From here I get up, walk around and do a few reality checks. This is MUCH more realistic than any DILD’s because at no point are you unconscious.

In conclusion:

I believe WILD’s and Astral Projection are the same thing with two different theories behind them. Some people are more comfortable believing in the new-age mythical Astral Projection, and others prefer to believe in a more scientific and rational approach -WILD. Whatever you prefer, I still believe they are the same thing!

Fascinating!! I didn't know that a WILD was that close to astral projection! Thanks a lot for that post. Now I think I have a better understanding of a WILD, and to an extent I believe you are absolutely right! A valid point indeed!

However I have still several other things to be considered here. Astral projection and WILD are essentially the same thing.....BUT there are different types of astral projection to be considered. When most people who don't know much about the science behind OBEs refer to astral projection, they think of it as a WILD, because based on what you have explained, they are the same thing. But that is only true of the type of astral projection that takes you to the astral plane, otherwise known as the dreamworld.

There are precisely 6 other types of astral projection, and 7 types of etheric projection. The second most known about form of astral/etheric projection is caled real-time projection, where you project to a plane which has adpoted the most commonly known name of the Real-time zone or RTZ. (I don't recall the proper name for it)

See, the astral plane or the dreamworld is an environment completely altered by your thoughts (often against one's will) but those who project to the RTZ (very hard to do..i've only managed it once) are able to see, hear, and experience time in real-time, consistant with what people are experiencing in the physical plane. Thus, the RTZ is considered a separate dimension of space-time, as we are able to see and hear things in real-time, but we cannot interact with that environment, similar to being on a different frequency, and guess what.....you are on a different frequency! (which i'd be glad to explain later)

There is something you can do called "validation" when you are in the RTZ. My favourite one to use would be to have a friend place a playing card somewhere, that you haven't seen. Tell you where it is, and look at it, and try desperately to remember it when you come out of projection, and then go get the card. The one time I projected RTZ, I was able to do this, and got the card right. One could argue that that was chance, but there are others who do it constantly and are always valid.

The other thing to take into consideration about ASTRAL projection (the one we're debating if it's WILD or its own thing) is that WILD and Astral projection are essentially the same thing! But remember what I said before...on the astral plane, it is possible to interact with other projectors! I do this all the time. I meet my mother on the astral plane on a regular basis, and we often talk of the experience afterword. The thing is though, the way you describe WILD sounds like an OBE so I'm not sure what to think.

I know that a regular dream or a regular lucid dream is sort of an internalized astral plane...but a WILD ...hmm. I think your theory of a WILD being the same as an astral OBE may have a lot of validity. But have you experimented with interacting with other beings/entities? If your theory is correct, you should be able to interact. Unless maybe there is a another form of OBE that is not an astral projection, and is indeed a WILD? Just something to ponder. I really appreciate your post! I gathered a lot from it, and I'll be thinking about it a lot!!

Ok, here an experience I had this morning to pretty much verify they are the same thing (at least in my own experience, maybe not for you).

I woke up, barely awake, and for some reason was thinking about existence. I don't know why, I just was. I got a little spooked from my thought, and this fear sort of induced sleep paralysis very quickly. Once I realized I was in this state, I tried to roll out, but for some reason was stuck. I felt a tugging at my feet, and felt some sort of presence around me. The presence did not feel good, so I imagined a very bright and powerful ball off light on my floor illuminating the whole room. This ended up working, and I sat there and thought out loud "there is more where that came from". Anyway, so I finally roll out, and touch the ground, but I cannot move at all. I have no sight either. I feel the tugging at my feet, and feel myself start to float away. I slowly begin to make out what looks like a bunch of leaves, and soon it looked like I was looking a bunch of bushes all lined up uniformly (I was possibly looking at "the tunnel" wall here), and slowly I begin to sink. I look down and see a large town below me. A place I've never been in my life before (though a lot of non lucid dreams have this quality). I dropped from the sky and began my lucid experience. After that it was no different from a regular lucid dream.

Learn to use the dictinary instead of this new age crap words you people make up... And you will see that you made this happen for yourself..

Idiots..

I don't wanna start an everlasting discussion, but I just want to say that I don't believe in AP (nor OBE, they are pretty much the same to me, I guess there is a concept issue here)

I know how WILD works because I've seen scientific research on it, not to mention that I've already had many LDs myself, so I believe everything connected to APs and OBEs are just dreams

ther matter is that people associate Lucid Dreams and new-age stuff too much, and so they think that somethign scientifically proved (WILD) is similar to surreal creative and spiritual stuff (like AP)


about the "place you have never been to before" @ AP:
If you have ever HEARD of a giraffes, or seen a drawing of them, then you subconscious mind already has information enough to make giraffes with a single eye that sing "From this moment on". All this *never been to before* thing is bullshit, at least imho

Like I stated above, WILDs and AP are the same thing to me - I don't know if they are actual other planes of existence, but I don't deny the possibility. And I also know that "real or not" - I don't think it's going to matter much to me anyway.

I highly doubt you have "scientific evidence" on WILDs because as far as I am concerned, science still has not proven the existence of the human conscience. And until we do that, who is to say what this human conscience experiences is real or not real.

Unless science can track events that happen outside the physical plane of existence (which is where people who believe in OBEs and AP - this is where this stuff takes place), then I doubt there will be ever be an answer.

Originally Posted by blade5x

Like I stated above, WILDs and AP are the same thing to me - I don't know if they are actual other planes of existence, but I don't deny the possibility. And I also know that "real or not" - I don't think it's going to matter much to me anyway.

I highly doubt you have "scientific evidence" on WILDs because as far as I am concerned, science still has not proven the existence of the human conscience. And until we do that, who is to say what this human conscience experiences is real or not real.

Unless science can track events that happen outside the physical plane of existence (which is where people who believe in OBEs and AP - this is where this stuff takes place), then I doubt there will be ever be an answer.

I believe AP to be just a dream. To AP you get there through a dream, do you not? AP/NDE/LD are all your head. I'm not too sure about wilds, and OBE's. OBE's you can actually go to places and see/hear stuff and have it confirmed as true, unless of course it's some type of psychic power, but psychic power would have to be flashes of places, not floating. I dunno what OBE is, i wont believe entirely what science has to say because like i said, see/hear things and have them confirmed. Then again i'm sure there is alot we don't know. I mean look at the stuff we used to think back in the older days and we proved it to be wrong. World is not flat and 6 miles long, it's round, it moves, and it spins, and goes around the sun every year.

To G0MPgomp- You're first post in here, you don't like what you read so you personal attack...You're so smart. Thanks for bringing to this discussion your 1 liner when people are discussing this thread with paragraphs, and sentances. Don't read what you don't like, and especially dont respond to stuff you don't like unless it's actually not to make yourself feel better and bring someone down. Ha, a 2 liner.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I believe AP to be just a dream. To AP you get there through a dream, do you not? AP/NDE/LD are all your head. I'm not too sure about wilds, and OBE's. OBE's you can actually go to places and see/hear stuff and have it confirmed as true, unless of course it's some type of psychic power, but psychic power would have to be flashes of places, not floating. I dunno what OBE is, i wont believe entirely what science has to say because like i said, see/hear things and have them confirmed. Then again i'm sure there is alot we don't know. I mean look at the stuff we used to think back in the older days and we proved it to be wrong. World is not flat and 6 miles long, it's round, it moves, and it spins, and goes around the sun every year.

Right, to get to this plane some say you can do it through a dream. I personally have never achieved this (I have tried, but always ended up being thrown back into a dark sleep paralysis).

But I can see logic in the reasoning - as in a dream the conscience is not bounded by anything physical. It's not possible to jump planes while being awake because there's no way you could with your physical body. But in a dream, when the conscience is free and unbound, such possibilities may occur. The only way this is possible is if the mind and body are separate - another unknown. Think of the brain/body just being a vessel for the conscience to ride while we're alive. Without them, we would never be able to experience the physical world.

Though I have also read that there is almost no difference between a regular dream and being on the astral plane - so how one would be able to distinguish between the two, I'm not sure. Maybe there's just some kind of quality that's absent in regular dreams.

When I was on Salvia once, it was about the closest to a body-less AND brainless experience I could have ever had. I was just "there" - I had no idea who I was, where I was - I was in such a "blanked" and emotionless state for a period of time. I had a sense of existence, but that was all. I mean yeah my brain was still alive, but it gave me an idea of what existence without the body AND brain could be like.

And then I think there is something about "the holographic universe" where even without the brain we would be able to maintain our memories and identity on another plane of existence, but I could just be talking out my ass here because I never looked too much into this subject, but plan to do so sometime soon.

According to my research this is really just the misconception of early pagans to explain their natural world. They even imagined up elemental creatures that fought amongst themselves invisibly to explain phenomena such as lightning.

OBEs/AP take place on other planes, some which may be connected to the physical plane but *cannot* directly influence it - at least that is the belief? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

APs are a form of OBE. So to say that one doesn't exist, or is in your head, would be to say that about all. You don't achieve APs from sleep, or through dreams. It's actually a lot harder that way, from what I've heard (never tried it that way intentionally).

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

about the "place you have never been to before" @ AP:
If you have ever HEARD of a giraffes, or seen a drawing of them, then you subconscious mind already has information enough to make giraffes with a single eye that sing "From this moment on". All this *never been to before* thing is bullshit, at least imho

What about when you dream of something you've never seen. I've had dreams of alien animals, weird looking drone guards in a spaceship where time-travel and teleportation boots are a tourist attraction and looked like nothing I've seen in movies

Originally Posted by blade5x

Unless science can track events that happen outside the physical plane of existence (which is where people who believe in OBEs and AP - this is where this stuff takes place), then I doubt there will be ever be an answer.

It has been tested that you can trap a person's astral form in a Faraday cage. If there is electricity running around, the astral form can't break trough. It's quite a dangerous experiment really but it shows some significant interaction between the astral body and the physical world.

Wow, this is a very interesting thread indeed. I’ve read through it all and can generally agree that a WILD and OBE are one and the same. However, I think one thing we can all agree on is that there is ALOT we don't know.

I have a couple experiences that happened to me in the past three weeks that I can't really explain and they reference questions that have been brought up...

Last week, I was WILDing and trying to tumble and somersault out of my body, I did and then found myself in a weird house, then I went outside and there was very strange animals and beings everywhere, they were flying around on platforms; mini-wolves, bald cats, and mixtures of animals I’ve never seen. They kept telling me to get out and asked "how did i get here", then I saw giant humans and they said "welcome, you did it". It was bizarre.

Then three weeks ago this next experience happened that I can not explain, it references a question brought up about being able to interact with beings in real time. This time I woke up in my own bed and sat up, I looked around and everything was slightly off so I decided I was dreaming. I went out to my living room in total real time, the smell, the set up of my apartment, the furniture, everything was the same, except slightly off, there was clutter around the place that usually is never there and a sort of haziness like fog. Then my cat came up to me, except she only had on eye in the middle, and I let her outside onto my porch. Then I went outside and flew, it wasn't terribly exciting so I went back inside, into my room and woke up. Then I woke up for reals, baffled at my experience and then went out to my living room for breakfast. Then I kind of freaked out, because there looking at me, was my cat outside on the porch. I can't figure it out, my cat was in the house, no one was at my apartment, she can't open a door. So maybe I sleep walked??? But, I’ve never done that before and aren't I supposed to be paralyzed.

I'm still baffled by it all, but maybe there is an explanation for me on here…
Also, to clarify, is it in an AP that you could possibly interact with beings?

BTW, that card validation, been trying it for a week and half now, I managed to remember once, but when I went to the top of my fridge all I found was a complete deck of cards unopened ...hmmmm??

Originally Posted by dreamingofdreaming

Then I kind of freaked out, because there looking at me, was my cat outside on the porch. I can't figure it out, my cat was in the house, no one was at my apartment, she can't open a door. So maybe I sleep walked??? But, I’ve never done that before and aren't I supposed to be paralyzed.

I'm still baffled by it all, but maybe there is an explanation for me on here…
Also, to clarify, is it in an AP that you could possibly interact with beings?

Wow that is freaky indeed! I have experienced it several times that you can be moving your real body and see a dream where something in the world around is different. It happens when I wake up, I was once looking at my hand in the dream as I woke up and my vision changed from dream to real, my hand was already moved and I was seeing it normally, only the world around me changed. It's possible it worked to a greater extend with you, walking around and seeing the real world like in a dream. And if I'm not mistaken, in Robert Peterson's book Out of Body Experiences he describes how he went to his friend during an AP and talked to her through telepathy and then pinched her. When he met her in reality, she didn't remember the talk but she did remember the pinch. So it is possible to interract with the world to some extend in an AP.

Originally Posted by Amantes

What about when you dream of something you've never seen. I've had dreams of alien animals, weird looking drone guards in a spaceship where time-travel and teleportation boots are a tourist attraction and looked like nothing I've seen in movies



It has been tested that you can trap a person's astral form in a Faraday cage. If there is electricity running around, the astral form can't break trough. It's quite a dangerous experiment really but it shows some significant interaction between the astral body and the physical world.

you're referring to the Faraday cage experiment by Robert Monroe i assume. later on he said the cage was no problem at all to get through and that the only thing stopping him was his own belief system.

I am still confused as to why the ones who claim they can interact with other people through astral projection, or do the card trick don't go and collect the million from James Randi. Even if it is hard to achieve it would be worth trying. And especially with apparently so many people being able to do it, I am surprised no one has still done it.

Originally Posted by DreamCast

I am still confused as to why the ones who claim they can interact with other people through astral projection, or do the card trick don't go and collect the million from James Randi. Even if it is hard to achieve it would be worth trying. And especially with apparently so many people being able to do it, I am surprised no one has still done it.

You are not confused - merely incredulous!

The obvious answer is that OOB, in the sense of being able to perceive with the senses of the body whilst outside of it, is nonsense. Not saying its impossible - but its much more likely to be a some kind of lucid dream. I've done both - and they are very similar - except the OOB method was what introduced me to techniques for entering lucid states without falling alseep first.

I've never seen or heard of any hard peer reviewed evidence for the existence of OOB - and I have looked around a fair bit. But also think of World events - one good OOBer would have been able to answer the IraqWMD question during an afternoon nap! Things would be leakier.

But maybe Randi's reward hasn't been taken because..... well if I could OOB I wouldn't let the world know, in any case I'd be able to earn way more than his reward with my magical powers - so why offer yourself up as a dangerous weapon to the powers that be, it would only end in tears. So would we ever know if someone had won? Of course not!

All the facepalms.