Thread: DEBATE: OBE’s (astral projection) V.S WILD’s

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I believe AP to be just a dream. To AP you get there through a dream, do you not? AP/NDE/LD are all your head. I'm not too sure about wilds, and OBE's. OBE's you can actually go to places and see/hear stuff and have it confirmed as true, unless of course it's some type of psychic power, but psychic power would have to be flashes of places, not floating. I dunno what OBE is, i wont believe entirely what science has to say because like i said, see/hear things and have them confirmed. Then again i'm sure there is alot we don't know. I mean look at the stuff we used to think back in the older days and we proved it to be wrong. World is not flat and 6 miles long, it's round, it moves, and it spins, and goes around the sun every year.

Right, to get to this plane some say you can do it through a dream. I personally have never achieved this (I have tried, but always ended up being thrown back into a dark sleep paralysis).

But I can see logic in the reasoning - as in a dream the conscience is not bounded by anything physical. It's not possible to jump planes while being awake because there's no way you could with your physical body. But in a dream, when the conscience is free and unbound, such possibilities may occur. The only way this is possible is if the mind and body are separate - another unknown. Think of the brain/body just being a vessel for the conscience to ride while we're alive. Without them, we would never be able to experience the physical world.

Though I have also read that there is almost no difference between a regular dream and being on the astral plane - so how one would be able to distinguish between the two, I'm not sure. Maybe there's just some kind of quality that's absent in regular dreams.

When I was on Salvia once, it was about the closest to a body-less AND brainless experience I could have ever had. I was just "there" - I had no idea who I was, where I was - I was in such a "blanked" and emotionless state for a period of time. I had a sense of existence, but that was all. I mean yeah my brain was still alive, but it gave me an idea of what existence without the body AND brain could be like.

And then I think there is something about "the holographic universe" where even without the brain we would be able to maintain our memories and identity on another plane of existence, but I could just be talking out my ass here because I never looked too much into this subject, but plan to do so sometime soon.

According to my research this is really just the misconception of early pagans to explain their natural world. They even imagined up elemental creatures that fought amongst themselves invisibly to explain phenomena such as lightning.

OBEs/AP take place on other planes, some which may be connected to the physical plane but *cannot* directly influence it - at least that is the belief? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

APs are a form of OBE. So to say that one doesn't exist, or is in your head, would be to say that about all. You don't achieve APs from sleep, or through dreams. It's actually a lot harder that way, from what I've heard (never tried it that way intentionally).

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

Originally Posted by Rainman

Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

You disappeared for a short amount of time in which I did my best to fill in

What exactly is a "plain of existance"? i hear alot about it here about different places but what exactly is a plain of existance?

Originally Posted by Rainman

APs are a form of OBE. So to say that one doesn't exist, or is in your head, would be to say that about all. You don't achieve APs from sleep, or through dreams. It's actually a lot harder that way, from what I've heard (never tried it that way intentionally).



Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

Well, all i have ever heard was you get to AP when you sleep. How else can you AP without sleeping? Sorry for not understanding, i'm trying. I like to see 2 sides of things. Scienfitically, and non scienfitically. So i may talk about something non scientifically, then the next one almost the same i talk about it scientifically. I rather know the 2 sides, then be totally 1 sided as it's a good way to judge things in a better perspective.

I have always accepted my OBEs as lucid dreams, because I have no real evidence to say otherwise. I cannot rule it out though. I can WILD relatively easily, but realtime AP is something I still cannot achieve. I can get to the point where I feel my "body" seperating, and I have very violent vibrations, but I do not get beyond that. When I WILD however, I just focus on HI and I'm in the dream easily; no break in consciousness, except that I KNOW I fell asleep. Being asleep even fully conscious is different than being awake.

While in this WILD, I try to AP again. The vibrations come and go briefly, and I rise out of my body and go through a tunnel. So why can I not AP in the way it is generally described, yet can WILD easily? Are they two different things? Or is this proof that I cannot AP fully because I am just too good at concentrating and do not fall asleep without knowing it? (what I mean is maybe I am canceling the WILD by not allowing myself to sleep, which would say they are the same thing indeed.) What a crappy deal; you have to stay awake to prove to yourself that it is indeed astral projection, but you cannot astral project unless you fall asleep! There are just too many variables once you do; either you are in a lucid dream and your room is an imperfect reconstruction, or you "just cannot focus well enough to see what is really around you in the astral."

I don't know. I like the idea of AP, but it keeps letting me down. People have been proven to be able to read numbers on cards above them in controlled experiments, but is this projection or clairvoyance? Is there a difference? Can the mind pretty much go anywhere WITHOUT actually leaving the body? Kind of like the internet? Some interesting questions I sometimes ask myself. I have experienced precognition many times, so such ideas I toy with without trouble. Still, Stephen LaBerge's description of OBEs was very well written and researched. This leads me to believe that the mind indeed does travel without traveling, but there is no body that actually leaves; such is probably the brain's way of making sense of it all. This is the only way to explain a few realtime experiences I have had during dreams.

It's all fun to think about.

Can the mind pretty much go anywhere WITHOUT actually leaving the body?

I looked into the Holographic universe a bit more... and if this was true, the mind would not have to go anywhere. Everything according to it is connected in a greater reality - distance is an illusion. Is the same thing as going out of body? No... but is there any difference? Either way, OBEs or Clairvoyance would be pointing toward a greater reality like the theory above describes.

What exactly is a "plain of existance"? i hear alot about it here about different places but what exactly is a plain of existance?

A plane of existence is more of an expression. Think about Einstein's space-time representation. It is a giant grid - a plane. Other planes like this, connected or not connected to ours may exist.

So like a paralel universe is a plain of existance, aswell, yes?

No, a plane of existance is more like a different dimension of spacetime. A parallel universe would have its own set of planes of existance.

Well, all i have ever heard was you get to AP when you sleep. How else can you AP without sleeping? Sorry for not understanding, i'm trying.

I get the feeling that this is going to end up being a pretty long post. I don't think people have been reading the whole thread. Some questions keep being answered that were already answered by me or by someone else several times already. (Ironically this question hasn't been answered yet and I'll be happy to answer.)

You are never asleep during that process. You get yourself into sleep paralysis but the idea is to remain completely 100% conscious. Not half way between asleep and awake, not letting scenery gradually get more detailed and letting yourself slip into it creating a lucid dream. You are fully conscious and active as you would be during the day. Your conscious makes sort of a "copy" of itself similar to how you make a copy of a file on a computer.

During an OBE, only one of your consciousnesses[?] can be active at once. Some people can do it while they are awake and fully conscious physically, but that's pretty rare. My cousin is one of those people. I can't say whether or not THAT is an OBE (because that could be something else...clairvoyance, psychicness whatever etc.) But anyway, only one consciousness can be active at once in the sense that you can only remember one set of recorded memories while there are two consciousnesses "recording" new memories.

Basically when your conscious is copied like that, both are identical, which is why no matter which one is active, you have the same knowledge, memories, etc. But when they're copied, it's because they are doing separate things. Therefore they are recording separate memories, and when the projection is over, your mind sort of "uploads" one of the experiences. So at no point are you asleep.

One could argue that you are, because the same thing happens when you sleep. Your conscious mind creates a copy of itself and interjects you in to a series scenarios created by your subconscious. But the difference between that and OBE is that with OBE you remember one or the other 100% of the time. With a dream, you cannot remember your physical conscious, because it is not active, because it is asleep, and the switched conscious of the dream world becomes the active conscious. The thing is there, that you are not guaranteed to remember anything at all, because one of your consciousnesses is INACTIVE, where as with OBE, BOTH are active, therefore if one is not remembered, the other is.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you. I'm not always the best at explaining things clearly.

As for the "lack of scientific proof, I don't know how you can live your lives basing EVERYTHING on science. Just because something has not yet been scientifically proven, doesn't automatically deem it impossible, and to suggest that it does, would be completely idiotic. Science is not fact. Science is based on things that we have never yet seen a counter example. That doesn't mean it is fact. You cannot prove that it is impossible to jump up in the air and fly. You can talk about gravity and the inability of the human mind to produce energy for lift or whatever you want, but you cannot PROVE it. Science is based on what we already "know", and what we already "know" is based on other things we already "know" 100% of the time.

EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE INFORMATION. So I don't want to hear that shit. It's BS grounds for being a skeptic if you REALLY think about it. Actually I should rephrase that. Skeptics have every reason to be skeptical about things like this, because there has not yet been a way to prove it is possible. But there is also NO way (yet) to prove that it is NOT possible, so if anyone tries to state as a fact that it is not possible, they are wrong.

Now perhaps my experiences with validation are really clairvoyance combined with dreaming, which is an option I am willing to take a very close look at, because someone brought that to my attention, as every human being has access to something called the "Akashick Records" which I won't even dare to go into here, but that would explain a LOT about OBE's. I am leaving this OPEN MINDED, even though I am almost positive that OBE's exist. For me to be closed minded to the possibility that they are in my head would be thick headed of me.

Also...

Here OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things can be discussed. Note that this particular forum is ONLY for members who BELIEVE in the aforementioned topics.

'Beyond Dreaming' was not created for debate, but rather, it exists for members who believe in the sort of topics that fit into its scope (such as OBEs, dream precognition, astral projection, etc.) to have peaceful discussions amongst themselves. I understand many of us don't believe in the material that fits within that forum (myself included) but enough people do that we have given them their own forum to discuss it. For those who doubt and would prefer debate the truth behind such phenomenon, I would suggest using other forums (such as 'Extended Discussion'), since, quite frankly, you're not discussing anything "beyond dreaming" but rather using science and natural laws instead.

Just thought I'd remind everyone

--rain