Thread: DEBATE: OBE’s (astral projection) V.S WILD’s

Originally Posted by blade5x

Ok here's somethings I've gathered over the past year. When I first learned about lucid dreaming, I also learned about astral projection.

Most WILDs begin as ethereal projections. Ethereal plane is supposed to be an overlay of the physical plane. Its characteristics are supposed to be based on the energy of matter I believe. Characteristics of a ethereal projection: you feel very heavy, have difficulty moving around, going through objects is very difficult, sight is pretty blurry. This is the lowest form of a projection that one would be able to achieve (or closest to the physical plane).

Then there is the transition (not sure if there is a plane for this) between the ethereal plane and astral plane. Again, you are in your room/house, neighborhood - all familiar places that closesly represent the physical plane. Except this time you can move around easily, have clear vision, and may even run into other beings. Dreams take place here.

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here. Not exactly sure how to get here from the ethereal plane, but one way I read was trying to get sucked through a vortex of some sort, or by "raising your frequency" - everytime I try this, I get sent back into sleep paralysis.

Then there's some other plane above the astral plane, which I didn't bother reading about.

I'm not saying any of this is true, this is just what I have gathered. Most of my WILDs would fit into the "transition" where I'm in my neighborhood pretty much. I've tried jumping through mirrors - and have been sucked through tunnels rapidly, but I've never reached the end of them. I've also had those eps where I feel very heavy, and can barely move. Have never had any validations yet.

It'll be very hard to validate an OBE because there are no cases where you actually travel the physical plane. The ethereal plane is connected to the physical plane, but there is also the "fact" that thoughts to manifest in the ethereal plane, so if you look a card on a table, if you or your subconscious has any "thought" as to what it might be, that can affect what you see. Supposidly you can only travel the physical out of body when you die in the form a ghost, but I'd imagine it must really suck to be a ghost, because when you look at the pattern, there's: really cool astral plane (awesome dream) >> pretty cool ethereal plane (awesome dream but common setting) >> shitty ethereal projection (blurry, slow, heavy) >> ???

According to my research this is really just the misconception of early pagans to explain their natural world. They even imagined up elemental creatures that fought amongst themselves invisibly to explain phenomena such as lightning. Granted, there is still a lot of evidence of an etheral plane and I have at least two friends who swear on their families that they'd been to the astral plane. I think the possibility of a multi-layered parallel universe is true, but I think dreams are just the natujral evolutionary solution as to what to do with your consciousness when your body needs rest.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I believe AP to be just a dream. To AP you get there through a dream, do you not? AP/NDE/LD are all your head. I'm not too sure about wilds, and OBE's. OBE's you can actually go to places and see/hear stuff and have it confirmed as true, unless of course it's some type of psychic power, but psychic power would have to be flashes of places, not floating. I dunno what OBE is, i wont believe entirely what science has to say because like i said, see/hear things and have them confirmed. Then again i'm sure there is alot we don't know. I mean look at the stuff we used to think back in the older days and we proved it to be wrong. World is not flat and 6 miles long, it's round, it moves, and it spins, and goes around the sun every year.

Right, to get to this plane some say you can do it through a dream. I personally have never achieved this (I have tried, but always ended up being thrown back into a dark sleep paralysis).

But I can see logic in the reasoning - as in a dream the conscience is not bounded by anything physical. It's not possible to jump planes while being awake because there's no way you could with your physical body. But in a dream, when the conscience is free and unbound, such possibilities may occur. The only way this is possible is if the mind and body are separate - another unknown. Think of the brain/body just being a vessel for the conscience to ride while we're alive. Without them, we would never be able to experience the physical world.

Though I have also read that there is almost no difference between a regular dream and being on the astral plane - so how one would be able to distinguish between the two, I'm not sure. Maybe there's just some kind of quality that's absent in regular dreams.

When I was on Salvia once, it was about the closest to a body-less AND brainless experience I could have ever had. I was just "there" - I had no idea who I was, where I was - I was in such a "blanked" and emotionless state for a period of time. I had a sense of existence, but that was all. I mean yeah my brain was still alive, but it gave me an idea of what existence without the body AND brain could be like.

And then I think there is something about "the holographic universe" where even without the brain we would be able to maintain our memories and identity on another plane of existence, but I could just be talking out my ass here because I never looked too much into this subject, but plan to do so sometime soon.

According to my research this is really just the misconception of early pagans to explain their natural world. They even imagined up elemental creatures that fought amongst themselves invisibly to explain phenomena such as lightning.

OBEs/AP take place on other planes, some which may be connected to the physical plane but *cannot* directly influence it - at least that is the belief? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

APs are a form of OBE. So to say that one doesn't exist, or is in your head, would be to say that about all. You don't achieve APs from sleep, or through dreams. It's actually a lot harder that way, from what I've heard (never tried it that way intentionally).

Lol I hate defending this kind of stuff. I'm trying to take the open minded approach, because some of this I myself am even skeptical about, but hey, someone's got to do it

Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

Originally Posted by Rainman

Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

You disappeared for a short amount of time in which I did my best to fill in

What exactly is a "plain of existance"? i hear alot about it here about different places but what exactly is a plain of existance?

Originally Posted by Rainman

APs are a form of OBE. So to say that one doesn't exist, or is in your head, would be to say that about all. You don't achieve APs from sleep, or through dreams. It's actually a lot harder that way, from what I've heard (never tried it that way intentionally).



Guess no one's read the whole thread recently, huh?

Well, all i have ever heard was you get to AP when you sleep. How else can you AP without sleeping? Sorry for not understanding, i'm trying. I like to see 2 sides of things. Scienfitically, and non scienfitically. So i may talk about something non scientifically, then the next one almost the same i talk about it scientifically. I rather know the 2 sides, then be totally 1 sided as it's a good way to judge things in a better perspective.

I have always accepted my OBEs as lucid dreams, because I have no real evidence to say otherwise. I cannot rule it out though. I can WILD relatively easily, but realtime AP is something I still cannot achieve. I can get to the point where I feel my "body" seperating, and I have very violent vibrations, but I do not get beyond that. When I WILD however, I just focus on HI and I'm in the dream easily; no break in consciousness, except that I KNOW I fell asleep. Being asleep even fully conscious is different than being awake.

While in this WILD, I try to AP again. The vibrations come and go briefly, and I rise out of my body and go through a tunnel. So why can I not AP in the way it is generally described, yet can WILD easily? Are they two different things? Or is this proof that I cannot AP fully because I am just too good at concentrating and do not fall asleep without knowing it? (what I mean is maybe I am canceling the WILD by not allowing myself to sleep, which would say they are the same thing indeed.) What a crappy deal; you have to stay awake to prove to yourself that it is indeed astral projection, but you cannot astral project unless you fall asleep! There are just too many variables once you do; either you are in a lucid dream and your room is an imperfect reconstruction, or you "just cannot focus well enough to see what is really around you in the astral."

I don't know. I like the idea of AP, but it keeps letting me down. People have been proven to be able to read numbers on cards above them in controlled experiments, but is this projection or clairvoyance? Is there a difference? Can the mind pretty much go anywhere WITHOUT actually leaving the body? Kind of like the internet? Some interesting questions I sometimes ask myself. I have experienced precognition many times, so such ideas I toy with without trouble. Still, Stephen LaBerge's description of OBEs was very well written and researched. This leads me to believe that the mind indeed does travel without traveling, but there is no body that actually leaves; such is probably the brain's way of making sense of it all. This is the only way to explain a few realtime experiences I have had during dreams.

It's all fun to think about.

Can the mind pretty much go anywhere WITHOUT actually leaving the body?

I looked into the Holographic universe a bit more... and if this was true, the mind would not have to go anywhere. Everything according to it is connected in a greater reality - distance is an illusion. Is the same thing as going out of body? No... but is there any difference? Either way, OBEs or Clairvoyance would be pointing toward a greater reality like the theory above describes.

What exactly is a "plain of existance"? i hear alot about it here about different places but what exactly is a plain of existance?

A plane of existence is more of an expression. Think about Einstein's space-time representation. It is a giant grid - a plane. Other planes like this, connected or not connected to ours may exist.

So like a paralel universe is a plain of existance, aswell, yes?

No, a plane of existance is more like a different dimension of spacetime. A parallel universe would have its own set of planes of existance.

Well, all i have ever heard was you get to AP when you sleep. How else can you AP without sleeping? Sorry for not understanding, i'm trying.

I get the feeling that this is going to end up being a pretty long post. I don't think people have been reading the whole thread. Some questions keep being answered that were already answered by me or by someone else several times already. (Ironically this question hasn't been answered yet and I'll be happy to answer.)

You are never asleep during that process. You get yourself into sleep paralysis but the idea is to remain completely 100% conscious. Not half way between asleep and awake, not letting scenery gradually get more detailed and letting yourself slip into it creating a lucid dream. You are fully conscious and active as you would be during the day. Your conscious makes sort of a "copy" of itself similar to how you make a copy of a file on a computer.

During an OBE, only one of your consciousnesses[?] can be active at once. Some people can do it while they are awake and fully conscious physically, but that's pretty rare. My cousin is one of those people. I can't say whether or not THAT is an OBE (because that could be something else...clairvoyance, psychicness whatever etc.) But anyway, only one consciousness can be active at once in the sense that you can only remember one set of recorded memories while there are two consciousnesses "recording" new memories.

Basically when your conscious is copied like that, both are identical, which is why no matter which one is active, you have the same knowledge, memories, etc. But when they're copied, it's because they are doing separate things. Therefore they are recording separate memories, and when the projection is over, your mind sort of "uploads" one of the experiences. So at no point are you asleep.

One could argue that you are, because the same thing happens when you sleep. Your conscious mind creates a copy of itself and interjects you in to a series scenarios created by your subconscious. But the difference between that and OBE is that with OBE you remember one or the other 100% of the time. With a dream, you cannot remember your physical conscious, because it is not active, because it is asleep, and the switched conscious of the dream world becomes the active conscious. The thing is there, that you are not guaranteed to remember anything at all, because one of your consciousnesses is INACTIVE, where as with OBE, BOTH are active, therefore if one is not remembered, the other is.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you. I'm not always the best at explaining things clearly.

As for the "lack of scientific proof, I don't know how you can live your lives basing EVERYTHING on science. Just because something has not yet been scientifically proven, doesn't automatically deem it impossible, and to suggest that it does, would be completely idiotic. Science is not fact. Science is based on things that we have never yet seen a counter example. That doesn't mean it is fact. You cannot prove that it is impossible to jump up in the air and fly. You can talk about gravity and the inability of the human mind to produce energy for lift or whatever you want, but you cannot PROVE it. Science is based on what we already "know", and what we already "know" is based on other things we already "know" 100% of the time.

EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE INFORMATION. So I don't want to hear that shit. It's BS grounds for being a skeptic if you REALLY think about it. Actually I should rephrase that. Skeptics have every reason to be skeptical about things like this, because there has not yet been a way to prove it is possible. But there is also NO way (yet) to prove that it is NOT possible, so if anyone tries to state as a fact that it is not possible, they are wrong.

Now perhaps my experiences with validation are really clairvoyance combined with dreaming, which is an option I am willing to take a very close look at, because someone brought that to my attention, as every human being has access to something called the "Akashick Records" which I won't even dare to go into here, but that would explain a LOT about OBE's. I am leaving this OPEN MINDED, even though I am almost positive that OBE's exist. For me to be closed minded to the possibility that they are in my head would be thick headed of me.

Also...

Here OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things can be discussed. Note that this particular forum is ONLY for members who BELIEVE in the aforementioned topics.

'Beyond Dreaming' was not created for debate, but rather, it exists for members who believe in the sort of topics that fit into its scope (such as OBEs, dream precognition, astral projection, etc.) to have peaceful discussions amongst themselves. I understand many of us don't believe in the material that fits within that forum (myself included) but enough people do that we have given them their own forum to discuss it. For those who doubt and would prefer debate the truth behind such phenomenon, I would suggest using other forums (such as 'Extended Discussion'), since, quite frankly, you're not discussing anything "beyond dreaming" but rather using science and natural laws instead.

Just thought I'd remind everyone

--rain

Thanks for clearing that up, it makes a bit more sense to me now.

BTW something i don't like is when people say OBE is an LD, or just a dream. Dreams are fake, false if you will. Things you can do in OBE have been recorded and proven correct alot more times then just the odd time. LD, or a normal dream your brain does the work, and it's all different scenerios like you said, and cannot be proven at all. I dunno what it is about OBE, maybe the mind wonders outside the brain, who knows. But 1 thing is for certain, OBE's are not fake, and not just your mind playing tricks on you. Like a councidence(sp?), which IMO is overrated. Everyone who cannot understand something rather call something a councidence then something else. No, i don't mean "god" or something, but maybe there is something in the universe we cannot understand that makes these things happen, like somehow there is a line that swirls around randomly making things go inline and seem to be destiny. I dunno what you can call this. No not something god created, or god even.


About your science is not everything you were talking about. Sure, you can't base your life around science and believe everything they have to say because even they are wrong sometimes but i see things that seem to make sense, so i tend to be a science believer. Call me ignorant if you want but eventually i think science will have alot of things proven in time. Like i said though, dont base everything on science, science can be wrong, and has been wrong, just like everything. Some things i will refuse to believe science on, even if they give overwelming proof, which there has been no proof, or overwelming proof of the things i'm talking about. Also remember, with skeptic science, there can also be science going against skeptics and what they are saying. Example NDE. Skeptics say it's neutons in the brain, they have scientific proof, but there is scientific proof against that proof saying they are real. Really, if there was 1 proof we wont need anti proof, we would all be basking in the warm truths .

I believe NDE's are just the brain though. I'll believe the side that has neurons making you feel relaxed, and the eye making a dark tunnel and light. Because really...i would believe the other side if they have people come back after 6 minutes and say they saw a light, and tunnels and it's got several creditable sources. 6 minutes it's brain that shuts off, so anything after that and still see if then it's definaly DEFINATLY not neurons in the brain.

Nonono, you're right, science does make sense. I mean it's science. I hope no one gets me wrong, I'm not slamming science, I use science to back a lot of things I say. All I'm saying is that ultimately you cannot say something is certainly true or certainly false based on science, and that is because, science itself is not certain. It only relies on what we already know, which is in turn based on what we already know. In that sense, science is a big circle.

Also, Flanders, sorry if I seemed agitated on the other thread just now. Universal really pissed me off, and after my whole rant about it, you and blade sort of ignored what I was saying.

Anyway, in an OBE the best way I can describe it is an active conscious leaving the body. You become a floating existance of thoughts that occupies no space, which in its own way means you MUST exist in a separate plane or dimension, sort of like frequencies.

I wouldn't say that they can't be all in your head though. Just as you are open minded about OBEs, I am (and would suggest you be too) open to the idea that the skeptics may be right. So for sake of stirring things up a bit, I will propose a skeptics point of view on OBEs (even though it involves an explanation that will undoubtedly generate MORE skeptics.)

I have been pondering the idea of clairvoyance, or even clairsentience/clairaudience. Psychic abilities (skeptic or not, that's something you can't disprove) integrated with the dreamworld, would be a very very SIMILAR experience to OBE's, and would completely explain validations. This IS A POSSIBILITY! (but I HIGHLY doubt it.) Why do I doubt it? because groups of people meet in the astral. Many many many people are into astral projection, and therefore when you astral project, you see other people. In an AP/OBE you cant conjure up things or people like you can in LD.

Skeptics are losing their grounds for argument. This is the last time I will argue against skeptics. I have no problem with the actual people. You are all (well most of you) very nice people. But I'm sick of trying to convince you. I've come to the conclusion that why should I spend time trying to convince people with pretty hard to argue with facts, who won't even have an open mind? I already know OBEs/APs exist. If you guys want to stick to science, that's all good, more power to ya, but I'm done trying to convince you, cause it's your loss .

And really it's not a loss. You can accomplish just about anything with lucid dreaming, (except meeting people) so if that's all the more you care about, more power to ya. No hard feelings whatsoever here, but I'm not going to waste anymore time on this subject. If someone who is open minded like flanders and blade want to PM me about what I know about OBEs, feel free to.

As for NDEs the way I see it is there are two types. Spontaneous OBE projections, and what you described. I believe that when people are in a dangerous situation in which they are paralyzed with fear, they can disociate, and from disociation can have a spontaneous OBE (which is a type of OBE I'd be glad to explain, if anyone needs details). This can also happen if someone has been severely injured, such as in a war, if they lost a limb or had undergone some massive trauma, (physical, emotional, or otherwise).

The NDE you were describing is what I call "light at the end of the tunnel" syndrome. I believe I read somewhere that you're right. I'm pretty sure that that is your mind preparing for the death process, so you may see or feel things. But consider this.

When I OBE (i've gotten a lot better lately too!), upon exit I normally feel violent vibrations, (like when you hear two different pitches of very close frequency) and I see a light, and then it gets brighter and brighter and brighter, and sometimes I feel a graceful lift, or slide out of my body, other times it's like i got slingshotted out of myself very quickly. So perhaps it is an actual OBE and perhaps it's not. I think it varies. I've never had one, so I can't fairly say.

-Rain

Also, Flanders, sorry if I seemed agitated on the other thread just now. Universal really pissed me off, and after my whole rant about it, you and blade sort of ignored what I was saying.

No problemo, i barely remember it.:p

Originally Posted by Kromoh

about the "place you have never been to before" @ AP:
If you have ever HEARD of a giraffes, or seen a drawing of them, then you subconscious mind already has information enough to make giraffes with a single eye that sing "From this moment on". All this *never been to before* thing is bullshit, at least imho

What about when you dream of something you've never seen. I've had dreams of alien animals, weird looking drone guards in a spaceship where time-travel and teleportation boots are a tourist attraction and looked like nothing I've seen in movies

Originally Posted by blade5x

Unless science can track events that happen outside the physical plane of existence (which is where people who believe in OBEs and AP - this is where this stuff takes place), then I doubt there will be ever be an answer.

It has been tested that you can trap a person's astral form in a Faraday cage. If there is electricity running around, the astral form can't break trough. It's quite a dangerous experiment really but it shows some significant interaction between the astral body and the physical world.

Wow, this is a very interesting thread indeed. I’ve read through it all and can generally agree that a WILD and OBE are one and the same. However, I think one thing we can all agree on is that there is ALOT we don't know.

I have a couple experiences that happened to me in the past three weeks that I can't really explain and they reference questions that have been brought up...

Last week, I was WILDing and trying to tumble and somersault out of my body, I did and then found myself in a weird house, then I went outside and there was very strange animals and beings everywhere, they were flying around on platforms; mini-wolves, bald cats, and mixtures of animals I’ve never seen. They kept telling me to get out and asked "how did i get here", then I saw giant humans and they said "welcome, you did it". It was bizarre.

Then three weeks ago this next experience happened that I can not explain, it references a question brought up about being able to interact with beings in real time. This time I woke up in my own bed and sat up, I looked around and everything was slightly off so I decided I was dreaming. I went out to my living room in total real time, the smell, the set up of my apartment, the furniture, everything was the same, except slightly off, there was clutter around the place that usually is never there and a sort of haziness like fog. Then my cat came up to me, except she only had on eye in the middle, and I let her outside onto my porch. Then I went outside and flew, it wasn't terribly exciting so I went back inside, into my room and woke up. Then I woke up for reals, baffled at my experience and then went out to my living room for breakfast. Then I kind of freaked out, because there looking at me, was my cat outside on the porch. I can't figure it out, my cat was in the house, no one was at my apartment, she can't open a door. So maybe I sleep walked??? But, I’ve never done that before and aren't I supposed to be paralyzed.

I'm still baffled by it all, but maybe there is an explanation for me on here…
Also, to clarify, is it in an AP that you could possibly interact with beings?

BTW, that card validation, been trying it for a week and half now, I managed to remember once, but when I went to the top of my fridge all I found was a complete deck of cards unopened ...hmmmm??

Originally Posted by dreamingofdreaming

Then I kind of freaked out, because there looking at me, was my cat outside on the porch. I can't figure it out, my cat was in the house, no one was at my apartment, she can't open a door. So maybe I sleep walked??? But, I’ve never done that before and aren't I supposed to be paralyzed.

I'm still baffled by it all, but maybe there is an explanation for me on here…
Also, to clarify, is it in an AP that you could possibly interact with beings?

Wow that is freaky indeed! I have experienced it several times that you can be moving your real body and see a dream where something in the world around is different. It happens when I wake up, I was once looking at my hand in the dream as I woke up and my vision changed from dream to real, my hand was already moved and I was seeing it normally, only the world around me changed. It's possible it worked to a greater extend with you, walking around and seeing the real world like in a dream. And if I'm not mistaken, in Robert Peterson's book Out of Body Experiences he describes how he went to his friend during an AP and talked to her through telepathy and then pinched her. When he met her in reality, she didn't remember the talk but she did remember the pinch. So it is possible to interract with the world to some extend in an AP.

I am still confused as to why the ones who claim they can interact with other people through astral projection, or do the card trick don't go and collect the million from James Randi. Even if it is hard to achieve it would be worth trying. And especially with apparently so many people being able to do it, I am surprised no one has still done it.

All the facepalms.

it's a little difficult to see the difference until you've experienced both but they are without a doubt a different experience. the method of achieving a WILD and OBE are very similar but once you reach that state there are 2 paths you can take. one goes into the dream and the other goes OOB. this is directly to the original poster, there really is unfortunately no way for someone else to prove this to you. but then again that's what astral projection is all about..getting your own answers.

Originally Posted by Amantes

What about when you dream of something you've never seen. I've had dreams of alien animals, weird looking drone guards in a spaceship where time-travel and teleportation boots are a tourist attraction and looked like nothing I've seen in movies



It has been tested that you can trap a person's astral form in a Faraday cage. If there is electricity running around, the astral form can't break trough. It's quite a dangerous experiment really but it shows some significant interaction between the astral body and the physical world.

you're referring to the Faraday cage experiment by Robert Monroe i assume. later on he said the cage was no problem at all to get through and that the only thing stopping him was his own belief system.

Originally Posted by DreamCast

I am still confused as to why the ones who claim they can interact with other people through astral projection, or do the card trick don't go and collect the million from James Randi. Even if it is hard to achieve it would be worth trying. And especially with apparently so many people being able to do it, I am surprised no one has still done it.

You are not confused - merely incredulous!

The obvious answer is that OOB, in the sense of being able to perceive with the senses of the body whilst outside of it, is nonsense. Not saying its impossible - but its much more likely to be a some kind of lucid dream. I've done both - and they are very similar - except the OOB method was what introduced me to techniques for entering lucid states without falling alseep first.

I've never seen or heard of any hard peer reviewed evidence for the existence of OOB - and I have looked around a fair bit. But also think of World events - one good OOBer would have been able to answer the IraqWMD question during an afternoon nap! Things would be leakier.

But maybe Randi's reward hasn't been taken because..... well if I could OOB I wouldn't let the world know, in any case I'd be able to earn way more than his reward with my magical powers - so why offer yourself up as a dangerous weapon to the powers that be, it would only end in tears. So would we ever know if someone had won? Of course not!

Guys, sorry, byt this is a very old thread and it will be locked down. OP has not been here in a long time. I'm pretty sure there is a more recent thread you can join, or open a new one.