Thread: DEBATE: OBE’s (astral projection) V.S WILD’s

I've been wondering about the same thing. Some time ago I thought I had an astral projection but now I don't know anymore... There are theories that say your dreams happen in the astral plane, other say it's all just in your mind. I guess there's no way to know for sure...

OBE and AP are different. It's kind of hard to know if AP is real considering i read they are similar to LD, which both are thought base.

Ok here's somethings I've gathered over the past year. When I first learned about lucid dreaming, I also learned about astral projection.

Most WILDs begin as ethereal projections. Ethereal plane is supposed to be an overlay of the physical plane. Its characteristics are supposed to be based on the energy of matter I believe. Characteristics of a ethereal projection: you feel very heavy, have difficulty moving around, going through objects is very difficult, sight is pretty blurry. This is the lowest form of a projection that one would be able to achieve (or closest to the physical plane).

Then there is the transition (not sure if there is a plane for this) between the ethereal plane and astral plane. Again, you are in your room/house, neighborhood - all familiar places that closesly represent the physical plane. Except this time you can move around easily, have clear vision, and may even run into other beings. Dreams take place here.

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here. Not exactly sure how to get here from the ethereal plane, but one way I read was trying to get sucked through a vortex of some sort, or by "raising your frequency" - everytime I try this, I get sent back into sleep paralysis.

Then there's some other plane above the astral plane, which I didn't bother reading about.

I'm not saying any of this is true, this is just what I have gathered. Most of my WILDs would fit into the "transition" where I'm in my neighborhood pretty much. I've tried jumping through mirrors - and have been sucked through tunnels rapidly, but I've never reached the end of them. I've also had those eps where I feel very heavy, and can barely move. Have never had any validations yet.

It'll be very hard to validate an OBE because there are no cases where you actually travel the physical plane. The ethereal plane is connected to the physical plane, but there is also the "fact" that thoughts to manifest in the ethereal plane, so if you look a card on a table, if you or your subconscious has any "thought" as to what it might be, that can affect what you see. Supposidly you can only travel the physical out of body when you die in the form a ghost, but I'd imagine it must really suck to be a ghost, because when you look at the pattern, there's: really cool astral plane (awesome dream) >> pretty cool ethereal plane (awesome dream but common setting) >> shitty ethereal projection (blurry, slow, heavy) >> ???

Awesome post! I’ve gone into this crappy ethereal plane at least 6-7 times. It’s hard to move and my sight is blurry etc. My opinion on this is that my brain is not quite in the REM state so perhaps it’s having trouble forming imagery etc. Whenever I jump into this stage it’s at the beginning of the night or before a nap when I hadn’t slept yet. However, I have crisp and clear WILD’s when I wake back up and go to sleep.

Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here.

I once woke up to a place field with lots of giraffes I must be in the ethereal plane.

Originally Posted by wendylove

I once woke up to a place field with lots of giraffes I must be in the ethereal plane.

You mis-read :p

Then there is the astral plane. Dreams that have no resemblence to any place you've been before take place here.

Sigh... A lot of the facts about OBE's and astral projection have been twisted by books written by idiots trying to make a buck. If you want a book about this sort of thing by a qualified author, read "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce. In the meantime I will try to clear up some of the confusion about OBE's.

First of all, I can very easily understand why people would doubt APs or OBEs as a reality, because they are similar to that of a WILD. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong (because i'm quite new to LDing) but a WILD is entering a lucid dream from consciousness, yes? During an astral projection, at no point are you unconscious. Most commonly, astral projection is induced by sleep paralysis, which is done through meditation.

Upon achieving sp (or a deep trance-state), you are then able to separate your primary active conscious from your physical body. During this process, your mind's conscious copies itself, so that you are still able to function on a physical level, even though your primary conscious may be present in your astral or ehterIC (not ethereal) form. This can cause a mental bilocation known as the mind-split effect, which I will be glad to explain if someone asks.

Astral projection has similar qualities to that of a lucid dream, but it is quite different. If experiencing an AP, there would be no question that that's what it was. The sensations you feel going in to an AP are physical, and a bit scary/unnerving the first time you do it. The process of getting out (APing) is nothing like a WILD.

People confuse LDing with an OBE because during most OBEs, your astral/etheric body is projected to the astral plane, which is an environment where your thoughts determine the reality of the environment, similar to that of a lucid dream. The only difference is that, (as far as I understand) in a lucid dream, things only change if you will them to. In the astral plane, your environment is altered by your thoughts AS THEY COME which means it can happen against your efforts. People find that their fears become present during an AP because of this.

The similarities exist because when you dream, it's in a way, an OBE. the "dreamstate" or "dreamworld" in fact IS an internalized version of the astral plane. that does not mean it is the astral plane! it means that your mind sort of replicates one for you only. In the astral plane, you can interact with other people/entities in it.


I am only posting this to spread information. I would prefer not to be flamed by rude skeptics. I don't mind if people disagree with what I'm saying cause everyone is wrong at some point or another, but if you do, please be polite about it. Thanks, and I hope someone got something out of this reply. Hope it helps

Rainman, thanks for the lengthy reply.

First off, what you are describing as astral projection still seems to be the same thing as what I call a WILD. At no point when doing a WILD are you unconscious, hence why it’s called a “wake-induced” lucid dream. In fact, the goal of a WILD should be to either:

A) get into sleep paralysis
B) go straight into a dream

When I WILD, I feel intense vibrations and often times feel like I’m falling out of my body. I have also successfully gone from the sleep paralysis stage to the ‘OBE’ stage. I generally find myself on the floor next to my bed. From here I get up, walk around and do a few reality checks. This is MUCH more realistic than any DILD’s because at no point are you unconscious.

In conclusion:

I believe WILD’s and Astral Projection are the same thing with two different theories behind them. Some people are more comfortable believing in the new-age mythical Astral Projection, and others prefer to believe in a more scientific and rational approach -WILD. Whatever you prefer, I still believe they are the same thing!

Fascinating!! I didn't know that a WILD was that close to astral projection! Thanks a lot for that post. Now I think I have a better understanding of a WILD, and to an extent I believe you are absolutely right! A valid point indeed!

However I have still several other things to be considered here. Astral projection and WILD are essentially the same thing.....BUT there are different types of astral projection to be considered. When most people who don't know much about the science behind OBEs refer to astral projection, they think of it as a WILD, because based on what you have explained, they are the same thing. But that is only true of the type of astral projection that takes you to the astral plane, otherwise known as the dreamworld.

There are precisely 6 other types of astral projection, and 7 types of etheric projection. The second most known about form of astral/etheric projection is caled real-time projection, where you project to a plane which has adpoted the most commonly known name of the Real-time zone or RTZ. (I don't recall the proper name for it)

See, the astral plane or the dreamworld is an environment completely altered by your thoughts (often against one's will) but those who project to the RTZ (very hard to do..i've only managed it once) are able to see, hear, and experience time in real-time, consistant with what people are experiencing in the physical plane. Thus, the RTZ is considered a separate dimension of space-time, as we are able to see and hear things in real-time, but we cannot interact with that environment, similar to being on a different frequency, and guess what.....you are on a different frequency! (which i'd be glad to explain later)

There is something you can do called "validation" when you are in the RTZ. My favourite one to use would be to have a friend place a playing card somewhere, that you haven't seen. Tell you where it is, and look at it, and try desperately to remember it when you come out of projection, and then go get the card. The one time I projected RTZ, I was able to do this, and got the card right. One could argue that that was chance, but there are others who do it constantly and are always valid.

The other thing to take into consideration about ASTRAL projection (the one we're debating if it's WILD or its own thing) is that WILD and Astral projection are essentially the same thing! But remember what I said before...on the astral plane, it is possible to interact with other projectors! I do this all the time. I meet my mother on the astral plane on a regular basis, and we often talk of the experience afterword. The thing is though, the way you describe WILD sounds like an OBE so I'm not sure what to think.

I know that a regular dream or a regular lucid dream is sort of an internalized astral plane...but a WILD ...hmm. I think your theory of a WILD being the same as an astral OBE may have a lot of validity. But have you experimented with interacting with other beings/entities? If your theory is correct, you should be able to interact. Unless maybe there is a another form of OBE that is not an astral projection, and is indeed a WILD? Just something to ponder. I really appreciate your post! I gathered a lot from it, and I'll be thinking about it a lot!!

So how exactly do you know when you are in "RTZ", or how can I get there, because I wouldn't mind trying to validate this whole thing for myself. And don't say "change my frequency" because I tried that numerous times (I probably didn't even know what I was doing - I sort of pictures molecules vibrating faster and faster, and I'd get all tingly - LOL) back when I got into LDs/AP and all it did was send me back into sleep paralysis mode

Well...i don't know how a person can intentionally change their vibration frequency, but in the above post, I didn't say "change your frequency". I said that's what naturally occurs during this whole process...

You can tell you're in the RTZ if you can look down at your still half-asleep body. Or if you have projected, and can see, hear and experience real-time. Like I mentioned in the post above, it's extremely difficult for even experienced projectors to get to the RTZ, and even if you get there, most people lose control of their focus and and up back in the astral, where things do not necessarily occur in real-time. It takes an incredible amount of control to keep onesself in the RTZ for an extended period of time.

But if you are interested in learning about real-time astral/etheric projection, I suggest you read "Astral Dynamics" by Robert Bruce. But if you don't have time to go hunting for it, I'd be glad to explain it on here. It's the same as astral projection really, which in itsself is quite difficult to do (until you get used to it).

Read up on astral projection, although be cautious about where you get your info. There are a lot of these crazy people out there who claim that you have to change your diet and whatnot in order to do it (usually so that they can make money selling some sort of ridiculous product). There are a lot of myths about just about every non-mainstream sort of topic. Goodluck to you

Edit: by the way, Po Nation, to address what you said:

At no point when doing a WILD are you unconscious, hence why it’s called a “wake-induced” lucid dream.

That is not true. Sorry for the slowness, but I just realized. Of course you're unconscious at some point during this. Lucid dreaming? Aren't you asleep during a lucid dream? Yes. You are.

During any form of energy body projection (astral/etheric) you are NEVER asleep during ANY stage of the process. You are fully conscious 100% of the time, which is NOT true of a WILD. You are awake until you start dreaming (obviously). Wake-induced just means that you enter the lucid dreamstate straight from being awake, instead of having to become lucid from in the dream. But at some point, you still end up asleep, which is not true of any form of energy body projection. You never are unconscious. Just thought I'd clear that up.

I've tried both AP/OBE methods and WILD - but I can't see a difference at a superficial level.
Before I knew about either I developed my own method - which I called 'Seeing with eyes closed' - which turned out to be essentially the same as both sets of techniques.

With WILD there is no loss of consciousness. But there is a change of consciousness. The lucid dream state is neither asleep nor awake - well... the body is asleep, the mind is awake (both to varying degrees/ depths).

People keep saying that AP/OBEs and WILDs are more vivid than DILD - but that's not my experience. My DILDs range from foggy- to ultra/hyper/supra-vivid.

However I remain open-minded and would love for there to be other planes roamed by extra-dimensional beings etc - I've certainly had LDs where I've suspected this to be the case.

RAINMAN - I'm amazed and delighted you got the card! I've posted on various AP/OBE sites looking for validation. Plenty of 'validations', however IMO these have much simpler scientific/ rational explanations (but the desire to believe is compelling enough to cloud rationality?) However I haven't come across anyone who has successfully done the card test (apart from the claims of Robert Bruce - who is suspect, IMO, as he's making alot of money from all this). Nonetheless, I have a card waiting on my top shelf to be read - but I keep forgetting the task!

You do realise that if you can do this, you can claim Randi's $10,000,000! Actually this sum would pale into insignificance compared to what the CIA would pay you, as the ultimate super-spy!!!!

Ahhhhhhh ok, I understand now about the WILD's. Wow, you're absolutely right, there is no loss of consciousness is there. That is fascinating. I have one other question about it, maybe someone could answer. In what you know as a WILD, your body is asleep but your mind is awake, right? Do you ever find that during a LD you trigger motion in your physical body? Can you be aware of both "bodies" at once?

In an AP you can be aware of both bodies at once, and although a lot fewer people can do this, you can be in complete conscious control of both bodies at once, and look down at yourself functioning normally. Can you say that of a WILD? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I really am just trying to get info here, because I think you're all really onto something.

I think people get so excited about the idea of "validating" that they don't pay attention to the numerous times I've mentioned how hard it is. I was actually amazed that it worked to, because I found a lot of what Bruce said to be a bit far-fetched.

The only other validation method I could offer would be slightly less difficult, but also less reliable, and would require another person (very experienced) to go through a WILD/OBE/AP whatever you wanna call it, with you. I have met with my mother astrally and then talked about the experience with her later on the phone. But I do suspect that Robert Bruce is making quite a bit of money and might be talking out of his ass sometimes about a lot of this stuff, so you're right there, although in my experience, much of what he says is incredibly accurate.

The problem with the card validation method is that you have to project to the RTZ in order for it to work. Projecting to the astral and trying to use the card validtion method is completely unreliable, because your subconscious and your thoughts completely dictate what is around you. In the RTZ this is not the case, but as I said before and will say again, RTZ projection is extremely difficult! It takes a lot of practice and training. Unfortunately getting there isn't even the hardest part. Even if you manage to get there, it's twice as hard to stay there for longer than a few seconds, because we normally end up fading to the astral.

As for the CIA, they already have programs like this . It's not astral projection but it is a type of OBE called Remote Viewing. They are actually very open about the program, and it's easy to find on the internet. Just use any search engine and type "remote viewing military" and you'll get a whole article about the history of the program. it's quite interesting.

Ahhhhhhh ok, I understand now about the WILD's. Wow, you're absolutely right, there is no loss of consciousness is there. That is fascinating. I have one other question about it, maybe someone could answer. In what you know as a WILD, your body is asleep but your mind is awake, right? Do you ever find that during a LD you trigger motion in your physical body? Can you be aware of both "bodies" at once?

Yes you can, this has happened to me a lot of times. Sometimes you get into this middle state and you feel your physical body while in the dream. My body as also moved during one lucid dream but that woke me up so I'm pretty sure you can't control your physical body from a LD....

Interesting indeed. Hmm. The last factor that no one has addressed is being able to interact with other people and different energies. I believe that WILD and OBE are indeed the same thing as far as properties and qualities. You guys have convinced me of that. (good job thats hard to do )

But here's how I see it. WILD/Lucid Dreaming is to astral projection as offline browsing is to internet. Know what I mean? It's not quite like that but think about using a laptop computer on a bus. Just no internet. You can do all of these amazing things, even write new programs (if you're a skilled programmer), fix security holes in your computer, but you cannot interact in real time with other people, programs.

This is how I see WILDS. You have convinced me that they are the same exact process. I think that if you astral project, however, a different thing is happening, with nearly identical effects. My idea of the dreaming world is like an "internalized astral plane" which I've said time and time again (to other forums) but I have no problem explaining it. You get to it the same way. Some people say when you dream, you're really OBEing every night. And in a way I guess you could call it that. I prefer to just think of it as dreaming. But for people who think of dreaming as an OBE, i prefer to think of it as an internalized or isolated OBE, which is why you guys have the (quite valid) arument that it is the same as a WILD.

But when it comes to an actual AP, the side no one has addressed yet is the ability to meet with other people. It seems like a far fetched concept to people who base all of their beliefs on science, (and much of this can be measured with different brain activity monitoring instruments), but people communicate regularly with each other on the astral plane (and the other planes too but it's not as common).

Here come the skeptic flames.

I downloaded a very informative set of text files called DO_OBE off of the internet a while ago. Can't find it right now, but if you do a thorough search you should be able to get it. I don't remember exactly what is said, but it discusses this topic at length.

Originally Posted by Rainman

In what you know as a WILD, your body is asleep but your mind is awake, right? Do you ever find that during a LD you trigger motion in your physical body? Can you be aware of both "bodies" at once?

Yes, I've had this - especially in that fine line between wake and sleep. There's also the LaBerge experiment, considered 'proof' of LDing - where subjects communicated with experimenters by moving their eyes, to predetermined patterns, whilst dreaming.

In an AP you can be aware of both bodies at once, and although a lot fewer people can do this, you can be in complete conscious control of both bodies at once, and look down at yourself functioning normally. Can you say that of a WILD? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I really am just trying to get info here, because I think you're all really onto something.

Actually I've never tried looking at my sleeping body whilst LDing - could be interesting...

I think people get so excited about the idea of "validating" that they don't pay attention to the numerous times I've mentioned how hard it is. I was actually amazed that it worked to, because I found a lot of what Bruce said to be a bit far-fetched.

Not expecting it to be easy But if its possible thast would be of earth-shattering significance, no?

The only other validation method I could offer would be slightly less difficult, but also less reliable, and would require another person (very experienced) to go through a WILD/OBE/AP whatever you wanna call it, with you. I have met with my mother astrally and then talked about the experience with her later on the phone. But I do suspect that Robert Bruce is making quite a bit of money and might be talking out of his ass sometimes about a lot of this stuff, so you're right there, although in my experience, much of what he says is incredibly accurate.

Alot of people claim to have shared dreams. I keep trying with my partner - but we have yet to succeed - just LDing at the same time is hard enough.

The problem with the card validation method is that you have to project to the RTZ in order for it to work. Projecting to the astral and trying to use the card validtion method is completely unreliable, because your subconscious and your thoughts completely dictate what is around you. In the RTZ this is not the case, but as I said before and will say again, RTZ projection is extremely difficult! It takes a lot of practice and training. Unfortunately getting there isn't even the hardest part. Even if you manage to get there, it's twice as hard to stay there for longer than a few seconds, because we normally end up fading to the astral.

Oh. Its just that Mr Bruce made it sound easy - even normal.

As for the CIA, they already have programs like this . It's not astral projection but it is a type of OBE called Remote Viewing. They are actually very open about the program, and it's easy to find on the internet. Just use any search engine and type "remote viewing military" and you'll get a whole article about the history of the program. it's quite interesting.

Yes I've looked at this before. But the programme has been officially discontinued - because the results were inconclusive. But with the CIA - who knows?

Originally Posted by Rainman

Interesting indeed. Hmm. The last factor that no one has addressed is being able to interact with other people and different energies. I believe that WILD and OBE are indeed the same thing as far as properties and qualities. You guys have convinced me of that. (good job thats hard to do )

But here's how I see it. WILD/Lucid Dreaming is to astral projection as offline browsing is to internet. Know what I mean? It's not quite like that but think about using a laptop computer on a bus. Just no internet. You can do all of these amazing things, even write new programs (if you're a skilled programmer), fix security holes in your computer, but you cannot interact in real time with other people, programs.

This is how I see WILDS. You have convinced me that they are the same exact process. I think that if you astral project, however, a different thing is happening, with nearly identical effects. My idea of the dreaming world is like an "internalized astral plane" which I've said time and time again (to other forums) but I have no problem explaining it. You get to it the same way. Some people say when you dream, you're really OBEing every night. And in a way I guess you could call it that. I prefer to just think of it as dreaming. But for people who think of dreaming as an OBE, i prefer to think of it as an internalized or isolated OBE, which is why you guys have the (quite valid) arument that it is the same as a WILD.

But when it comes to an actual AP, the side no one has addressed yet is the ability to meet with other people. It seems like a far fetched concept to people who base all of their beliefs on science, (and much of this can be measured with different brain activity monitoring instruments), but people communicate regularly with each other on the astral plane (and the other planes too but it's not as common).

Here come the skeptic flames.

If there is dream sharing - that should be very easy to validate with code words etc. I'm not saying its impossible - I just haven't seen the proof under controlled circumstances. Like the card test - a positive result would rock the entire scientific establishment and would entitle you to Randi's $10M

Until proved otherwise I would say that OBEs/ AP are simply vivid LDs... But as I also keep saying; I'm open-minded.

It's nice to encounter someone of an opposing argument who is open-minded enough to see beyond their own logic. By the way, I was wrong, RTZ projection isn't the only way to do card validation. It can also be done with Etheric projection.

I"m not entirely hard pressed that OBE's and WILDS aren't the same thing...i'm actually starting to think that non-interactive OBE's are WILD's. But interactive OBE's that I've had with people aren't a one time thing. I do it a lot. As for remote viewing, it was discontinued in the military, but not in certain CIA and "black ops" programs.

I don't know anything about remote viewing though. Just projection OBE's. I'll keep searching. This debate is getting interesting. As for robert bruce, he makes everything sound easy, because it's very easy for him. The other thing to consider in this arument is that just because something cannot be scientifically explained, doesn't automatically deem it impossible. Science cannot prove that OBE's exist, but it also cannot prove that it does not exist. I respect those who stick with science, but in actuality, nothing that we have proved, is truely certain. We accept it as certainty or as "laws" simply because they have not yet been disproven. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks for the replies

Originally Posted by Rainman

But interactive OBE's that I've had with people aren't a one time thing. I do it a lot.

Are you sure? Have you done a code word validation or anything? Really, this is HUGE!!! I can't understand how you can claim it so casually!

As for remote viewing, it was discontinued in the military, but not in certain CIA and "black ops" programs.

How do you know ?

I DO know that alot of this stuff was propaganda - US/USSR cold war stuff - 'sleepers and super-sleuths'.
I don't believe a word of it! If there are RVers, surely there would be no need for weapons inspectors in Iraq? Or spy planes? Surely Bin Laden would have been found ages ago? etc etc...
Still, I appreciate there may be differences between RVing/APing/OBEs etc, and subtle differences within these definitions (various planes, vibrations, dimensions whatever) - some of which could be 'real and others 'fantasy'.

I don't know anything about remote viewing though. Just projection OBE's. I'll keep searching. This debate is getting interesting. As for robert bruce, he makes everything sound easy, because it's very easy for him.

Hmm... something's not right there - If he CAN do what he says he can, he would have either been silenced, or employed by the CIA - no doubt - think about it... I don't mean to sound patronizing, but surely his claimed abilities could bring down governments, it would be far too dangerous to leave him rolling around?

The other thing to consider in this arument is that just because something cannot be scientifically explained, doesn't automatically deem it impossible. Science cannot prove that OBE's exist, but it also cannot prove that it does not exist. I respect those who stick with science, but in actuality, nothing that we have proved, is truely certain. We accept it as certainty or as "laws" simply because they have not yet been disproven. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks for the replies

But it could be proved to exist, or certainly the type of OBE where you can "...see the doctor's bald head from the ceiling of the operating theatre..." - e.g. the card test, or code words for meetings on the AP etc. That would be irrefutable proof.

Hope you don't think I'm flaming /insulting you - I want to believe, and as I said I've had some experiences that defy easy rational explanation, but my BS detectors keep kicking in - I can't help it! :p

No not at all! I am always thrilled when someone of the opposing argument has brilliant points! I do mention interactive OBE's casually, because I don't see them as a very big deal. It's quite common (or people claim it to be), it's just that many skeptics don't bother with people like us who claim to have interactive situations, so it's automatically written off as BS...but if you read around a bit, you'll find that I'm not a rare case. I'm actually exceptionally bad at it with others. The only person I have successfully interacted with and confirmed it was my mom. Other than that, the countless other people I encounter, I can't prove that they weren't my subconscious mind making dream characters.

But just as Laberge was able to find ways to measure brain activity, I'm sure there is a way to show that a persons consciousness doubles, and the projected double can exist outside of the physical body. But also, many people are mistaken about what an OBE is...I don't really know how to explain it, nor is anything I say necessarily legit, because I am not a qualified expert, I'm just someone who does it with some regularity.

In actuallity, without the confirmed interactivity of speaking with my mom in context of whatever was said in the RTZ/Etheric, there isn't really any other way to conclude that OBE factually exists. I think that those who are skeptical about it CANNOT experience it. Just as lucid dreamers who are afraid of lucid dreaming every night, cannot experience that situation, as Laberge explained, your subconscious won't allow things to happen without your permission.

The only other problem with interactivity, is unless you are BOTH RTZ projected or Etheric projected, many many many things can be in your head. Once I did a regular astral projection (recently actually) and went outside, floated up to the roof, and went back inside. I heard my dad talking on the phone. I heard him say something about horse back riding. When I woke up from the OBE I asked my dad if he was on the phone talking about horse back riding or anything of the sort and he said "I just got home 5 minutes ago wtf are you talking about".

For the time being, I'll leave interactivity out of it. Lets just talk about plane astral projection and lucid dreaming. The interactivity throws off the argument, because there is no way you can disprove it, and there's no way I can prove it at the current moment. Therefore it's a bit of a stailmate. Both of us may be wrong! The interactivity could be something totally unrelated to OBE, and it still may be in my head! But there's no way of currently knowing that, so I'll drop interactivity for now and lets just talk about plane old astral OBEs.

Leaving interactivity out of it, you have quite a solid argument! What if lucid dreaming and OBE's....are the same thing?! What if that's what a WILD really is?! I would hate to think that [standard] OBE's don't exist...the notion of it seems so great! There is just one thing leaving me unsure...

In the astral, things get very distorted because your current thoughts AND your subconscious mind IMMEDIATELY determine your environment, and events. However in lucid dreams (to my QUITE LIMITED experience), you have to concentrate to change your environment. You may find it difficult to fly. In OBEs/APs you don't walk. You fly everywhere. You are constantly in the air, you effortlessly float through walls, teleport places, and you can't get rid of the "people"/entities you encounter. (Incidently entities that dwell in the astral plane/dimension are another form of interactivity that can affect us even in the physical, but i'll get into that later on!)

So lucid dreams=concentrate to achieve and exitment may wake you up. You have to consciously try to make things happen, and usually they will. OBEs of the astral nature= your thoughts control your environment whether you wish them to or not, you cannot look at your hands and expect to see yourself because in reality you don't technically have a physical body to see, you feel physically orgasmic (in a nonsexual way...very very hard to explain to someone who has never felt it) just prior to projection, and often times during. you have the qualities of a camera angle. You see in every direction at once, almost as if looking at everything from 3rd person perspective. Astral sight is like you're a 360° camera. I don't know how a fully lucid dream is, cause i've never had one where I had actual control, but I have never heard of lucid dreams like that. And even if someone had one or two like that...every projection is like that

And same for you, this is not meant to be outwardly attacking towards anyone whatsoever! I am just trying to prove a point! I have nooooo problems with anyone here and I welcome all views, and I am very happy to see that many of you do the same. So with sincerity (sp?) I say I look forward to your reply!

-rain

Edit: also I forgot to mention...I am not saying OBE's are better than Lucid dreaming!!! They are two vastly different experiences, therefore to say that either is better than the other would be ignorant on my part! I think lucid dreaming is a wonderfully beautiful thing that should be enjoyed by everyone, and I feel the same about conscious OBE!! Hope everyone understands..i'm not bashing anyone here

Ok, here an experience I had this morning to pretty much verify they are the same thing (at least in my own experience, maybe not for you).

I woke up, barely awake, and for some reason was thinking about existence. I don't know why, I just was. I got a little spooked from my thought, and this fear sort of induced sleep paralysis very quickly. Once I realized I was in this state, I tried to roll out, but for some reason was stuck. I felt a tugging at my feet, and felt some sort of presence around me. The presence did not feel good, so I imagined a very bright and powerful ball off light on my floor illuminating the whole room. This ended up working, and I sat there and thought out loud "there is more where that came from". Anyway, so I finally roll out, and touch the ground, but I cannot move at all. I have no sight either. I feel the tugging at my feet, and feel myself start to float away. I slowly begin to make out what looks like a bunch of leaves, and soon it looked like I was looking a bunch of bushes all lined up uniformly (I was possibly looking at "the tunnel" wall here), and slowly I begin to sink. I look down and see a large town below me. A place I've never been in my life before (though a lot of non lucid dreams have this quality). I dropped from the sky and began my lucid experience. After that it was no different from a regular lucid dream.

Learn to use the dictinary instead of this new age crap words you people make up... And you will see that you made this happen for yourself..

Idiots..

I don't wanna start an everlasting discussion, but I just want to say that I don't believe in AP (nor OBE, they are pretty much the same to me, I guess there is a concept issue here)

I know how WILD works because I've seen scientific research on it, not to mention that I've already had many LDs myself, so I believe everything connected to APs and OBEs are just dreams

ther matter is that people associate Lucid Dreams and new-age stuff too much, and so they think that somethign scientifically proved (WILD) is similar to surreal creative and spiritual stuff (like AP)


about the "place you have never been to before" @ AP:
If you have ever HEARD of a giraffes, or seen a drawing of them, then you subconscious mind already has information enough to make giraffes with a single eye that sing "From this moment on". All this *never been to before* thing is bullshit, at least imho

Like I stated above, WILDs and AP are the same thing to me - I don't know if they are actual other planes of existence, but I don't deny the possibility. And I also know that "real or not" - I don't think it's going to matter much to me anyway.

I highly doubt you have "scientific evidence" on WILDs because as far as I am concerned, science still has not proven the existence of the human conscience. And until we do that, who is to say what this human conscience experiences is real or not real.

Unless science can track events that happen outside the physical plane of existence (which is where people who believe in OBEs and AP - this is where this stuff takes place), then I doubt there will be ever be an answer.