Thread: Higher States Of Consciousness Through Lucid Dreaming?

Originally Posted by bendstringz

If your a christian then I wouldt recomend any type of meditation,exept meditating on the word of God.There are many lies assosiated with meditation.The guides are demons diguised as some heavenly form.I understand you are at a christian school,that doesnt mean your a christian persay,Just be carefull opening doors that are extremely hard to close.And lucid dreaming is not the same as astral projection or meditation.[/b]

Heheheh.

Ahhh, I love Beyond Dreaming - it's stuff like this that makes my day. I'm in fits of laughter right now.

Originally Posted by bendstringz

People have claimed to have permanently raised their consciousness through lucid dreaming. Some have said that they ended up realizing the great truth about reality, that it is a dream. They say that they have awoken from the dream and that describing that state of consciousness is impossible because it is so different from the world we know. It exists in a completely different format and cannot be described in any kind of detail at all.[/b]

I'm suprised at you, Universal. The explanation and description given by such people of "higher consciousness" is the exact same one given of God:

Believer: "It exists at a higher level. It transcends understanding."
Rational: "But if you can't explain it or describe it, what the hell are you on about, you nut?"
Believer: "You just haven't reached the level of understanding neccessary to get what I'm talking about."

Yet, you seem to be giving this higher consciousness stuff way more credence than God.

Originally Posted by The

Believer: "It exists at a higher level. It transcends understanding."
Rational: "But if you can't explain it or describe it, what the hell are you on about, you nut?"
Believer: "You just haven't reached the level of understanding neccessary to get what I'm talking about."

Yet, you seem to be giving this higher consciousness stuff way more credence than God.
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There is a huge difference. This is not the religion forum, so we can't get too far into religious disagreement here, but I will say this... There is nothing illogical about the idea of higher states of consciousness. There are no contradictions in it. The conversation you illustrated above is not one I have ever had, and there are no contradictory claims made in it any way.

Have you ever done a psychedelic drug that had effects which defied description? I have had salvia trips that were so wacked out that I could barely describe to people what happened. I have gotten some of my friends to try salvia and asked them afterwards what they experienced. One of them just sat there with an expression that suggested that there was no way to describe it, and then he said, "There was this bottle cap, or something, and everything was, uh, it was just really fucked up." Somebody else said he didn't even know where to begin in explaining it. Similar experiences are reported by DMT users. The same is the case with higher states of consciousness, but not to as much of an extent. You might want to laugh when I say this, but... I have experienced higher states of consciousness. Call me crazy or whatever, but I am not lying. Some were drug induced, and some were not. They are completely real. Here we are talking about experiences, not ghosts or aliens or anything. You know for a fact when you are having a mental experience. I know what mental experiences I have had. I know that I have seen what appeared to be the immense beauty of the oneness of all things and the ultimate serenity that comes with that perception. That is the perception that one metaphysical reality comes in the form of all things and that it is astoundingly beautiful. Even if the perception is false, the experience is undoubtably real. I have experienced that higher state of consciousness as well as a vision of the ultimate significance of life, which I saw in a lucid dream. That is completely mental, but the mental experience is real. I have also had higher states of consciousness where I have seen life's ultimate insignificance. There is an expanded awareness, or appearance of awareness, accompanied by a hightened ability to feel emotions, that takes place in these states.

My question in this thread is not whether these states can exist or whether they can exist in lucid dreams. I am only questioning whether lucid dreams can be used to create these experiences in waking life. I did describe what certain supposed lucid dreaming gurus have claimed, which is that the state they reached 100% defies description. I have not experienced that, and not all higher states of consciousness are like that, but I can see where it could be the case. It is not a concept that contradicts itself.

Originally Posted by Universal

My question in this thread is not whether these states can exist or whether they can exist in lucid dreams. I am only questioning whether lucid dreams can be used to create these experiences in waking life.[/b]

I'm going to say yes to that, but add you'd have to be unbelievably brave to pull it off. If you haven't read Carlos Castaneda's books, you might check those out. Gives some good examples of what you're asking about. And you might also look into Emmanuel Swedenborg, and what he accomplished with the hypnagogic state. He actually coined the term Hypnagogic.

Originally Posted by The

I'm going to say yes to that, but add you'd have to be unbelievably brave to pull it off. If you haven't read Carlos Castaneda's books, you might check those out. Gives some good examples of what you're asking about. And you might also look into Emmanuel Swedenborg, and what he accomplished with the hypnagogic state. He actually coined the term Hypnagogic.
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Thanks. I should check those out. I've been interested in Castaneda for a while, but I still haven't read any of his stuff. If he talks about using lucids to create higher waking consciousness, I definitely need to read his stuff. Why do you say it takes bravery to pull that off?

Originally Posted by Universal

There is a huge difference. This is not the religion forum, so we can't get too far into religious disagreement here, but I will say this... There is nothing illogical about the idea of higher states of consciousness. There are no contradictions in it. The conversation you illustrated above is not one I have ever had, and there are no contradictory claims made in it any way.

Have you ever done a psychedelic drug that had effects which defied description? I have had salvia trips that were so wacked out that I could barely describe to people what happened. I have gotten some of my friends to try salvia and asked them afterwards what they experienced. One of them just sat there with an expression that suggested that there was no way to describe it, and then he said, "There was this bottle cap, or something, and everything was, uh, it was just really fucked up." Somebody else said he didn't even know where to begin in explaining it. Similar experiences are reported by DMT users. The same is the case with higher states of consciousness, but not to as much of an extent. You might want to laugh when I say this, but... I have experienced higher states of consciousness. Call me crazy or whatever, but I am not lying. Some were drug induced, and some were not. They are completely real. Here we are talking about experiences, not ghosts or aliens or anything. You know for a fact when you are having a mental experience. I know what mental experiences I have had. I know that I have seen what appeared to be the immense beauty of the oneness of all things and the ultimate serenity that comes with that perception. That is the perception that one metaphysical reality comes in the form of all things and that it is astoundingly beautiful. Even if the perception is false, the experience is undoubtably real. I have experienced that higher state of consciousness as well as a vision of the ultimate significance of life, which I saw in a lucid dream. That is completely mental, but the mental experience is real. I have also had higher states of consciousness where I have seen life's ultimate insignificance. There is an expanded awareness, or appearance of awareness, accompanied by a hightened ability to feel emotions, that takes place in these states.

My question in this thread is not whether these states can exist or whether they can exist in lucid dreams. I am only questioning whether lucid dreams can be used to create these experiences in waking life. I did describe what certain supposed lucid dreaming gurus have claimed, which is that the state they reached 100% defies description. I have not experienced that, and not all higher states of consciousness are like that, but I can see where it could be the case. It is not a concept that contradicts itself.
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you know Ive done alot of drugs including lsd salvia shrooms extasy and so on.yes you do get a glimpse of another realm.If youve ever had a bad lsd trip,you may have seen the dark side of it.I have had a life changeing experiance with my first ld.As I began to control that dream I was lifted up and surounded by a golg energy.I could also see a great city in the distance that my mind couldnt comprehind.but anyway,since were all taking time out of our lives to research,and discuss these dreams,it is obviosly affecting our lives.more to some than others.

Originally Posted by Universal

My question in this thread is not whether these states can exist or whether they can exist in lucid dreams. I am only questioning whether lucid dreams can be used to create these experiences in waking life. I did describe what certain supposed lucid dreaming gurus have claimed, which is that the state they reached 100% defies description. I have not experienced that, and not all higher states of consciousness are like that, but I can see where it could be the case. It is not a concept that contradicts itself.
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I believe it can. Lucid dreaming has been practiced as Dream Yoga by dream yogis. Its goal is Enlightenment, which is linked to or are these higher states of consciousness.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to check out the 6 Yogas of Naropa. It is profound stuff.



I would be interested to hear more about your experience about seeing the ultimate nature of reality though, not having had that experience myself:

Quote from you:"I have experienced that higher state of consciousness as well as a vision of the ultimate significance of life, which I saw in a lucid dream. That is completely mental, but the mental experience is real. I have also had higher states of consciousness where I have seen life's ultimate insignificance. There is an expanded awareness, or appearance of awareness, accompanied by a hightened ability to feel emotions, that takes place in these states."

Originally Posted by DarkMind

I would be interested to hear more about your experience about seeing the ultimate nature of reality though, not having had that experience myself:
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Thanks for your interest. I dug up where I talked about two experiences in one of my first posts here. You can see in it how since then I have waffled back and forth about my stance on drugs. But whatever the case is and whatever level of good or bad psychedelic drugs have, this is what I experienced...

Originally Posted by DarkMind

I have discussed this here before... I experienced what seemed to be "enlightenment" or "Nirvana" for three hours at the Memphis Zoo in 1991. I had the "perception" that everything is one, everything is rooted in nothing, everything is astoundingly beautiful, everything is composed of consciousness, and that things are eternally okay (Turmoil is an illusion.). It seemed to be the clearest my mind has ever been. I still think it might have been an acid flashback. (Be careful... Acid can take you in completely the opposite direction. I don't recommend it.) I am also not too sure about reaching a permanent state of this, but that would be incredible. It's worth studying.
I saw another version of what some Buddhists consider "enlightenment" when I was on mushrooms on Pensacola Beach in 1999. (I don't recommend mushrooms either. For about an hour of this mushroom experience, I was terrified out of my mind and thinking I was trapped forever in a nightmare.) There is the Zen-Buddhist (or maybe just "Zen") tale of the pupil who tells his master that he has reached enlightenment, and the master replies, "There is nothing left for you to do at this moment but laugh." In other words, enlightenment involves realizing that everything is meaningless and therefore all action is absurd, which makes it hilarious to observe. On the beach, I was tripping very hard and watching two of my friends throw a frisbee back and forth. I saw what appeared to be the ultimate meaninglessness of everything, and that made the frisbee throwing look absolutely pointless and absurd, and I laughed hysterically about it. My brother was also tripping, and he had the same perception. We were both laughing with great amusement. I made the comment, "It's so meaningless." One of the guys in our group heard me say this. He was not tripping, and I hit a serious religious nerve of his when I made the comment. He started arguing with me and wouldn't drop it. I tried to chill him out, and it didn't work, so I ended up having a temper tantrum on him (It's not a good idea to taunt somebody while he is tripping. He might really wig out and lash out.). It was a major buzz killer, and I lost the perception I had. I haven't been back to it since then. One of my goals of lucid dreaming is to reach that state again. I think that can work.
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And here is a more detailed account of the zoo experience...

Originally Posted by DarkMind

As for the oneness principle, I was at the Memphis Zoo in 1991 right after being initiated as a transcendental meditator under the teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The idea of the oneness of everything was heavy on my mind, and I at the time believed that I was on the path to Nirvana. I suddenly had an experience of "Nirvana" that lasted about three hours. I had a perception that all of the fish in an aquarium were the same consciousness in multiple forms. I saw the same thing in all of the other aquariums. I then had also the perception that the rocks and plants were the same being that was the fish, and that matter is infinitely complex, but principally composed of nothingness. I had come across that idea before, but this time, I "saw" it. Everything seemed extremely beautiful, and I saw things as though the one being that is everything is nothingness, but also on a level that is even higher than consciousness. It was not conscious, but "better" or "higher" than conscious. I walked around the zoo and had this perception almost until the time I left. It slowly faded away in the last hour. I really believed then and for a while after that that I had seen the secret of the universe. At this point, I think it might have been an acid flashback. Either way, I say that existence has no meaning, but it might be infinitely beautiful, better than conscious, and immortal in its core essence. [/b]

Originally Posted by Universal

Thanks for your interest. I dug up where I talked about two experiences in one of my first posts here. You can see in it how since then I have waffled back and forth about my stance on drugs. But whatever the case is and whatever level of good or bad psychedelic drugs have, this is what I experienced...
And here is a more detailed account of the zoo experience...
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Thanks for sharing man