Any Real Dreamers Here??

Aye yay yay carumba (sp?)

It is mind-blowing how few people are actually DREAMERS. And there has GOTTA be more out there.


This is the kind of post that will get ignored/angry backlash which is fine as long as there are true dreamers in the mix too who speak up. (ACCEPTING PRIVATE MESSAGES AND SKYPE MESSAGES TOO)

LUCID DREAMING IS NOT A HOBBY PLAYTHING PAST TIME


LUCID DREAMING IS REALITY


LUCID DREAMING WILL TRANSFORM THE WORLD BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES



The baby food of techniques and basic definitions is great...for the babies. But there is DEFINITELY some people who are eating real food. People who are awake.


Oii........if this post falls on deaf ears whatever. For the love of DREAMS though. If you are awake say something.


Where are you? What do you know? Let's grow this thing.

erm. Yep :D

I have to agree, lucid dreaming is a reality most definitely, but one of many as we are multi dimensional beings. To say the least, my very first lucid dream changed how I perceived the world entirely. It was like I had started life over on a fresh slate.

I have to say, I consider myself a "real dreamer".

OneUp

I have to ask, Wisher, about the purpose of this thread.

Are you trying to establish a heirerarchy of dreamers, to determine that some of us are somehow better than others? Are you trying to say that people taking their first steps toward lucidity are somehow not dreamers? If so, then I'm not sure that is a good idea.

We are all dreamers here; if a certain number of us have yet to reach the point where they understand or accept the deeper potentials of LD'ing (potentials to which I adhere and regularly champion, BTW), that may only mean that these dreamers haven't yet reached that point of understanding. To announce that you are better than others because you believe you are "awake" may be a bit disingenuous, I think: we all achieve higher levels of awareness at our own pace, and we may all get there eventually, especially if we're practicing LD'ing. A curious kid seeking -- through techniques, curiosity, and her own excitement -- to have LD's may not yet have achieved your criterion for being "awake," but she is on her way... that person is no less a "dreamer" than you; the only difference is that she has only begun her journey.

I may be qualified for the club you wish to assemble, but I don't think I want to be a member. To deem that people who are not yet fully "awake" are somehow not dreamers, and not on a path toward being fully "awake" does not seem the best way to push forward the concept -- and way of life -- of LD'ing.

tl;dr: We are all real dreamers, Wisher; our level of "awakeness" is more a reflection of LD'ing experience than it is one of interest or choice; to elevate yourself above the rest because you feel you've discovered a greater purpose embedded in the practice might only separate you from that purpose and other dreamers, leaving you alone in your superiority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wisher

Aye yay yay carumba (sp?)

It is mind-blowing how few people are actually DREAMERS. And there has GOTTA be more out there.

---

Like others have said, We are all dreamers.
Origins! Am the only person that I know in my family who can recall my dreams and who is an active natural lucid dreamer. However, just because I can do that, doesn't mean I see myself invincible and better than everyone else. I'm still learning new things here from even the beginners. ;) If I've too, have found my true Mindfulness and the Spiritual Potential of Humanity through lucid dreaming, I may never tell you.
Is this just a rant thread? What's the purpose of this thread?

Idk wishers, I can see where some would take offense at the idea that some here are playing to be dreamers. I have already been through that new and exciting stage of learning lucid dreaming and the powerful benefits of it as well as meditation. 30 years ago it was so exciting, but I had no one to share it with like yall have here. I'm happy for those that are experiencing different levels of control and finding new techniques. I'm kinda past the stage of getting too excited about LD now. Even obe or Astral projection is not so exciting these days because everyone argues about it here. I wish this place had a feeling of unity rather than a bunch of perfectionist know it alls, but that's what it seems to be turning into. I miss the dream games that used to go on in this section because there were times that I felt very connected to some participants during those games. I thought it was great to build skills and new interests in the beyond dreaming world, then the sceptics and naysayers would jump in and break the spell.
Anyway, I can kind of see why you wrote this thread too.

If 'real dreamer' is for someone who dream(ing) daily, and could do LD naturally or something like that (what am i writing about-_-) ... Maybe it's me. ^^

I think it'd make more sense and be far less condescending to ask if there are any extreme dreamers or something like that. The only reason you could possibly want to refer to people that don't try as hard as you as not being "real" dreamers is to feel better about yourself, or because you have a far less shallow motive but didn't think things through when deciding on the terminology you used (like wanting to find people who are willing to discuss dreaming as in depth as you want to discuss it because you both care about dreaming so much). Honestly this website is already that place, in my opinion, but it's not up to me (and shouldn't be) if you simply want to get the contact info of some people for off-site discussion. Just found it weird that you'd make the main post so... uninviting, hoping to invite "real" dreamers to take part in a discussion with you and all.

[QUOTE=kadie;2200273]I miss the dream games that used to go on in this section because there were times that I felt very connected to some participants during those games. I thought it was great to build skills and new interests in the beyond dreaming world./QUOTE]

Um, yes! If you start a dream game thread, I'm on board. :)

Being awake comes in many forms such as heightened awareness, awake to the corrupt government and fraudulent banking system and all the conspiracies, being awake to the spiritual reality, being awake to the illusion of reality, and of course being awake in your dreams. I am definitely awakened to all this but as the saying goes "ignorance is bliss" sometimes I wish I didn't know all the things I do as it would make life so much easier. Being awake can open many doors but it also closes one that you can't go back into, because once you're awake there is no going back. I get the sense that those who can lucid dream will find it easier to awaken in the afterlife. Buddhists talk about this most people will be stuck in limbo or not realise they are dead but lucid dreamers will have an advantage and be able to recognize it then change their environment however they see fit.

:chuckle: Yea it's true Eonnn waking up is both a blessing and a curse. Yet an adventure full of excitement no less. The Lucid Dreamers described in the OP not only have an advantage in the afterlife but also in this life as well (sounds like you already know that though). Curious to hear more of your story

OneUp, that sounds like you had a paradigm shift. Waking up with a new world view. That is at least very similar to what the OP had in mind. We've talked about some interesting things before. It's good to hear from you


The viewpoints so far are appreciated still hoping for more responses in line with the OP


Thanks!

^^ So, given that you only responded to the folks who agreed with you (all two of them), have you chosen to simply ignore what the rest of us have respectfully said and push on as if the majority of posts on this thread questioned the validity of creating a superior class of "Real Dreamers?" don't exist?

I guess that's fine, since its your thread, but I think doing so sort of diminishes its validity, and might simply create an echo-chamber of "real dreamers" who feel they are better than the rest of us... is that really what you want to do?

I mean no disrespect, Wisher, and this is not "angry backlash," per your OP, but I think you really need to get past your OP's clear indication that "few people are actually DREAMERS," or people who are "awake," and the rest are apparently inferior and do not matter. If you want to start such a club that's certainly your prerogative, but I think you ought to do so honestly by at least acknowledging that there are a few actual, awake, dreamers who might feel this is a step in the wrong direction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneUp

I have to agree, lucid dreaming is a reality most definitely, but one of many as we are multi dimensional beings. To say the least, my very first lucid dream changed how I perceived the world entirely. It was like I had started life over on a fresh slate.

---

I had the same experience, first LD was a turning point in my life and it wasn't definitely a 'coincidence' :) more of like awakening alarm went off? lol

and then it was endless, change after change, inner transformation taking its place, accelerating when the time just goes by...
rocketing thru space if you're willing to open up to Universe!


@Sageous I'm pretty sure Wisher isn't talking about just 'dream' dream. LDing is a shorcut, yes, but that doesn't mean you can wake up only thru LDing. He meant dream awakening and/or inner transformation(if that's the right term) that makes you hungry for the answers of universe and find how creation works. And no, no one is better than the other just cuz one is awaken. Each level of awareness needs experience and lessons. Not everyone should be 'forced' to wake up..

I can see why this is uninviting, but why do you feel inferior? everyone will wake up eventually like you said.. everyone is equal. thats my 2 cents. lets just hope that wisher clarifies it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Windhover@

I can see why this is uninviting, but why do you feel inferior? everyone will wake up eventually like you said.. everyone is equal. thats my 2 cents. lets just hope that wisher clarifies it.

---

I never said I felt inferior, Windhover.

Also, as long as I'm here: I'm pretty sure I understood what Wisher meant in his OP, and he hasn't corrected me yet... I was only questioning the use of a concept like "real dreamers" apparently to sift out a group of people who feel their dreaming experience is more valid than others. Also, there is nothing in the OP about things like "inner transformations" or "being hungry for the answers of the universe;" only lucid dreaming was mentioned. And nobody was talking about forcing anyone to wake up, BTW.

I'm sensing a "Lighten up, Sageous!" in my near future, so I'll leave this at that. As I said before, it's Wisher's thread, and he can do whatever he wants here; I won't mar it further with unwanted opinions or suggestions.

Where does the classification of "real" and "not real" dreamer comes from? Why would there even be such a classification? Sounds like something made up.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHaazwWWOOOOOOOOOO



JAM


Some how I couldn't sign on for a few weeks. BACK!



REAL Dreaming gab, is understanding life itself too is a dream. I assume u kno that ready tho. Basic plain and fake lucid dreaming is the idea that life is somehow different from dreaming. U seem to be a strong dreamer. So u might understand that already.




That said please, I am definitely a new start at dreaming truly and lucidly. Is there anyone here who coherently knows how to dream up the life they experience as they please? If not us dreamers will persist on our own to find a solution to our hope.

Love you all and thank-you. If you know somebody interested in our inquiry, let them know we are here



THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!


**Awakened forever,
-Wisher

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eonnn

Buddhists talk about this most people will be stuck in limbo or not realise they are dead but lucid dreamers will have an advantage and be able to recognize it then change their environment however they see fit.

---

Yeah, I understand that. :) One time, I almost skipped going back to school and boarded a bus that was going to the airport to Tibet. I met up with a group of people who were going there but, I didn't end up going. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wisher

REAL Dreaming gab, is understanding life itself to is a dream. I assume u know that ready tho. Basic plain and fake lucid dreaming is the idea that life is somehow different from dreaming.

---

How do you know that you are not in limbo, Now? ;)
Not seeing is believing? I have to ask, how do we know that you are not just posting this thread because you haven't had a lucid dream or a non-lucid dream in ages? Or at least that's what I feel like is going on here with your posts, somehow. :(
I think that people are saying, is that we all perceive things differently and whether or not our dreams are "real" or "not real" really should be solely up to the dreamers themselves.
To be honest Wisher, it sounds like you have a lot to learn about enlightenment before we can embark on your spiritual endeavor. (IMO)

I sense your excited, that's cool :) I'm excited too!

With regard to what you are saying - I'm not sure about the nature of reality, one thing I have learnt is that as soon as you think you have all the answers the universe likes to shake you upside down till what you thought you knew has fallen out your head and is in a big heap on the floor.

The fun bit for me is deciding what to put back in again.... that and knowing there is no rush, no pressure as it's all experience :D

Hmmm


Well, still not quite the responses I was hoping for. But some good responses still. Dreaming that one day even if it’s years from now other waking dreamers will see this. If nothing else this thread serves as a nod saying we’re out here and practicing.


 And it would be great to hear from you!


For those of you who are angry/annoyed about this that’s a good thing. Be passionate, passion drives great things. I pray your passion drives you to dream greater


 than you've ever dreamed
And those of you who are already searching for the mysteries that lie beyond the surface of dreaming CHARGE ON!
And of course, those of you who have already discovered some of the alchemical gold beyond just dreams and reality congrats and keep up the journey!

It's a vast sea. A great adventure.




That said cheers, to all types of dreamers and a Happy New Years ;-)

Wisher, what answer would elicit a positive response on the "dreamer" front?

I find it weird that the title of dreamer lies in something beyond dreams. In the way you put it, we would all be dreamers except those "risen above it" as you claim. :3

Well then let me announce myself as a proud fake lucid dreamer according to wisher's definition

I like to tell people "if you can dream it, you can dream it", and even those with no LD skill but even basic dream recall (even by luck) will know this is true.

Is the reverse true: "if you can reality it, you can reality it", I suppose someone like 'the Donald' might think so: he just sets his mind to something in the real world and poof a big o'l wall just pops into existence at no cost to him. But for most people this certainly isn't the case.

Believing that LDs are equally real physical alternate realities to the one we all share is pretty much the definition of pure b.s. like OBE (Out of their minds Experience)

Reality is different than dreams because it persists, and unlike 'Shared Dreams' it is actually shared.

So now let me define those who are awake as I understand what you're saying:

Those who are lucid dreamers, but who are 'awake' are people who when they dream have most of their brains/minds turned off. However, thru the skill of lucid dreaming are able to turn back on a small portion of their brains/minds. Those who have awoken, are the ones who when they return to reality, and the rest of their brains/minds (in so far as they function) have fully rejoined their consciousness, and are completely back on, can find no difference between the two states.

Just my two cents, here, Wisher, but I think the problem (or: the reason you get some of the negative responses that you get) is your choice in terminology. The message you are trying to convey is betrayed by the words you're using. Your notion of "better;" "fake;" "greater;" "real;" etc; really serves no true purpose or function but to be condescending. It's really counter-intuitive to any desire for true conversation, because it's arbitrary and, actually, quite arrogant.

What someone uses for a hobby or entertainment can be, in itself, a very personal and philosophical thing. That it doesn't appeal to you doesn't make it any less important, or your own pursuits any more important. If you really want to learn from others and have some understanding of psyche; psychology and 'reality', you should drop the pretense and learn how to convey your position with a little humility.

With that being said: could you be more specific? What, exactly, are you looking to speak with "real" dreamers here about? Is there a specific aspect of 'deeper dreaming' that you would like to discuss? Could/would you be less vague?

Nah I'm a fake dreamer.

Hahahah this thread is amazing to read...

I woke up recently during a crisis. My spiritual journey has been going on my whole life, but it really started not long before I joined DV (so 9-10 years ago). I have always been really curious about everything, and I have always wanted to understand myself and the universe better. So I dedicated my life to finding that, but it wasn't until my crisis about 6 months ago that for some reason I realized that myself and the universe is one in the same thing. So of course I started seeing everything else in it's nakedness. And boy does the naked truth change everything.

I can see from the responses here that it takes an awoken individual to understand the words of another awoken individual. I find myself wondering why other people can't see it, but then I remember that I used to be blind too... But yeah O has a point, your words come across as condescending from everyone else's perspective haha. But I know you don't mean it like that at all. It's weird that people like us have to use very strange language, but it's only because the ideas we want to convey are actually incommunicable with words, you can only throw out words that hold the power to spark an understanding, and only those ready to understand will understand.

At the end of the day though we are all on different levels of awareness. I still have a long way to go, I'm constantly meditating to resolve a bunch of paradoxes in my mind. And I'm constantly growing my consciousness. But the veil has been lifted my friend, and I knew as soon as I seen this thread that you've removed your veil too. (warning to everyone else: yes you have the power to lift your veil, but you might not particularly want to, it's not the best thing for everyone and it's a painful experience that requires the greatest commitment you can imagine. I am very greatful to be "awakening" as we call it, but you don't need to be "awake" to live a full life, we all have a purpose and you should always strive towards your greatest version)


I have only just the other week crossed paths with another free spirit, which was surreal. It was like talking to a mirror (in a way I was). We are pretty damn sure we've known each other for a long long long time, and we hope we're twin spirits cause that would be amazing. All this before we've even met, we've only spoken over text. But we're just going with the flow and continuing to grow ourselves. Oh god there's so much I could say about it all, but I get the feeling I don't need to say too much, cause you feel me anyways, don't you?


EDIT: Actually I want to say more. Wisher, I don't know about you but I am still so freshly woken up that I'm still going through the pain. It doesn't bother me that I am, I'm just observing it, I just wanted to share that with you. But tbh the pain is starting to fade, and by the way you have played your part in that.
Also I just realized that everyone here getting butthurt is indeed fantastic. Because it's showing a truth, the truth that truth causes pain, the psyche just doesn't want to know about it lol. But the universe does want to know about it, and that's why me and you have decided to open ourselves up to the truth. Interesting, right?

@slash, maybe it is because of your "awakening" that is able to see why people think that wisher sounds condescending. :P I mean, what levels must you have reached to connect to someone that high and us so low? This is BD, so consider this hyperbole to set up the next part.

all joking aside, you guys are literally using antonyms and saying that they are the same and you have to use "weird language" to get it across. devils advocate here, you guys are talking about 2 different surreal experiences that you cant explain with words. one, the only word you can think of as "waking" and one that wisher describes as "dreaming". just because it is surreal and you have to dance around words does not make it the same.

take for instance, my "awakening" or new understanding

Take a deep breath. Hold it.... hold it.... hold it... Now let it go. Let's multiply that feeling of euphoric release a hundred times -- a thousands times -- a million times over. The whole of reality has become clear and vivid, not that I see better, but that I see what I see now and know more what I know.

That is exactly how I would describe my pizza last night. It opened my eyes to new possibilities. :P

Actually Sensei fair point, I just realied I totally ignored his original point. I might have even misunderstood everything here cause I'm seeing what I want to see. I just got a bit excited there hehe :P

But I'm pretty sure Wisher was talking about how dreams and reality are one in the same thing. Actually all things are one. Therefore to wake up is to go into a dream, and to go into a dream is to wake up. Sorta, heheh
Thoughts create reality. If you *truly* dream something up, it will be created. I am a "true dreamer" simply because I use this truth to my advantage every day. I can say this and you may believe it, but honestly it's something you need to experience yourself to fully understand. I've believed this stuff for a long time, but only recently have I experienced it.

If you've ever heard of "The Secret" (Law of Attraction), that's the direction I'm talking about here

I'm anxious to see your response Wisher. Cause if you understand what I've said in my last two posts, it means you are who I think you are. Which means I've found another!

Et tu, Slash?

The imprimatur of a member of your standing carries some weight, Slash, so I'm going to say this carefully:

There are no special "Real Dreamers" who are better than the rest of us. Period.

I honestly think that this is not a PC, IMHO, moment; we are all true dreamers, Slash, whether you like it or not. How you define your personal experience is one thing, and you certainly had some special moments, but those moments didn't make you better, or a Real Dreamer; they only afforded you an opportunity to better understand this thing called dreaming that we all do, every day. That is a very good thing by any measure, but not a thing that defines you as better than the rest of us, or a Real Dreamer.

Indeed, any LD'er who has been at the practice for a while will reach a moment that might feel like a sort of apparent transcendence (perhaps in the form of a moment of true non-duality, as you described, Slash, or even that sense of "Law of Attraction" connection with reality). They believe they reached a level of awareness where they have effectively, say, touched the (for lack of a better word) divine and consciously lifted themselves to a level far above that of normal folk.

I first experienced that sort of thing myself over 30 years ago, and had the audacity, for years, to assume myself better than those around me because I had become, as Wisher calls it, a "Real Dreamer." After some time, and some seriously embarrassing conversations with people of actual experience and wisdom, I came to realize that, cool as it may have felt, there really was nothing special, psychically speaking, about my experience. I finally settled down and understood that I was not a Real Dreamer, but just a dreamer who had happened to have opened a special door or two of understanding about what was going on in my dreams... it wasn't that I had risen above everyone else, but that I had just had some truly awesome moments of self-awareness and creativity in my dreams where I got a taste of how much there is out there to know, and to experience.

You, Wisher, me, and any number of other dreamers who have touched the divine in our dreams are not special, or by any means better, than other dreamers. We're just particularly attentive, lucky, or perhaps thorough. To say that we are better than others, or belong in a special club of people who understand what it is to dream, what it is to be aware, is a fairly self-destructive statement that is mired in hubris and based on, forgive me for saying, delusional constructs.

For what it's worth, I have consistently achieved levels of awareness that would undoubtedly grant me access to your special club, perhaps even to redefine it, but I would never be a member. Why? Because to do so invites the delusion of superiority, and that is one delusion that thoroughly negates any chance of actual growth. And yes, condescension would be unavoidable -- almost a requirement of membership -- to the people in this club, and that is not for me.

Wisher, and apparently you, Slash, are assuming by your moments of perceived deep awareness (BTW: People with substantial histories of deep awareness, perhaps of touching the divine, rarely speak publicly about it... something to think about there, I think) you have earned some right to be elevated to a level above that of everyone else... and by corollary earned the right to assume yourselves better than other dreamers. That assumption is self-defeating at best, I think, and one that I hope you will reconsider: there are no "Real dreamers," only dreamers. Assuming yourself better than the rest of us, simply because you've been able to scare up a bit more awareness than usual, only manages to say something about you that perhaps you hadn't intended to be known.

[EDIT: I notice that a few posts popped up while I was writing this one, and I see, Slash, that you might have a slightly different opinion of what a "true dreamer" is than I had initially thought, and what I've come to assume Wisher believes (he has yet to clarify, BTW); but I'm not sure that different opinion changes much in what I said (I was a firm adherent to the law of attraction during those yeas I mentioned, too; though time and experience eventually weaned me of such fantasy).]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slash112

Actually Sensei fair point, I just realied I totally ignored his original point. I might have even misunderstood everything here cause I'm seeing what I want to see. I just got a bit excited there hehe :P

But I'm pretty sure Wisher was talking about how dreams and reality are one in the same thing. Actually all things are one. Therefore to wake up is to go into a dream, and to go into a dream is to wake up. Sorta, heheh
Thoughts create reality. If you *truly* dream something up, it will be created. I am a "true dreamer" simply because I use this truth to my advantage every day. I can say this and you may believe it, but honestly it's something you need to experience yourself to fully understand. I've believed this stuff for a long time, but only recently have I experienced it.

If you've ever heard of "The Secret" (Law of Attraction), that's the direction I'm talking about here

---

If I remember correctly, this is similar to what wisher (and a few others) were chatting about the other day. specifically life being a dream, dreams effect reality, and the law of attraction being similar. I guess my big question, for both of you, is that, if you have attained this godlike power, then what have you actually done with it? I have yet to see someone flying across the sky or solving world hunger or achieving world peace. with such power i imagine one would have a lot of responsibility. I use this mainly because this is what people ask Christians (me) about their supposed all loving God that lets children starve when he has all the power and mock when we say it doesnt work like that. Of course I am sure that your new avility doesnt work like that, because I bet you would have tried something similar (plus if my reading the secret is a reminder, other people all unwittingly bring their own destruction and cause pain to others by willing it).

I am sure that you also wont get fame, money or power because of ethical reasons (though you think of yourselves as gods or at least that everyone is a god and you have just refound access to him/yourself) for some reason, even though you could easily bring money and power and influence to you for good. so now that I have hopefully answered my own questions, I leave one unanswered, what good have you done in the world with this power? I am not asking this demeaningly, but if there is a powerful force out there, I would like to know about it.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/pr...w=w500-h280-nc

Damn good response Sageous I didn't see that coming haha.

Lemme be clear first of all, I don't believe myself better than others. And the levels of awareness thing, the way I see it is more like what stage of the journey you're on. Right now I'm quite a lot "higher" than I was yesterday because I've learned things, made realizations and such. Even your response there has taken me to this higher level we're talking about, but it doesn't mean I'm any better than I was before, I just understand more. More is settled in my mind. I do apologize for the words I'm using, I fuck that shit up in the simplest of conversations.

The way I see it is, we are all part of the universe. We are all just the universe looking at itself. I, slash, am here to look at the universe with love and with curiosity, but not everyone is. The universe is a massively complex system. Compare it to the human brain, it's a system made up of billions of neurons which each have their specific part to play. Each neuron takes in information, does *something* with it, and passes it on. I am just one of those neurons playing it's part, and so is everyone else in the world. I don't believe any one neuron to be any better than another, they all have the exact same power, they just do different stuff.

I did go through that apparent transcendence stage though, so I know what you're talking about haha, what a dummy I was.


Now, you say we are all true dreamers. The funny thing about that is, I was just telling that other free spirit I met online, that you don't "use" the law of attraction, its just happening all the time, it's the nature of the universe that you can observe should you wish. Like I said before, I recognize that thoughts create our realities, so I know that we are all "true dreamers". The difference with us is that we can see it.

There's loads of names for what we are, it doesn't matter what you call it though because they all mean the same thing. I like the name "free spirit" or "indigo", Wisher likes "true dreamer", who cares? Every one of us will be different, because the system can only work if there's variation. But there are a few things that we all have in common, and I find that interesting. I would love to figure out exactly what we have in common.


Also, I've noticed on my journey that there are loaaaads of traps. I fall for traps all the time, but I find myself resolving them almost as quick as they come.

Thank you for that though Sageous, I need to ponder on that xD

Sensei it isn't a godlike power, my last post should explain what I mean, I think :P

EDIT: Actually it is a godlike power. Because we are all god. We all have this power.

Oh and by the way, I use the term "I" loosely haha. Perhaps thats a whole different discussion though xD

It seems like everyone is on the same page but some are creating divisions where there are none. There's a difference between knowing something through reading, listening and watching and knowing something through experience. The experience of lucid dreaming brings knowledge that can't be translated with letters, words and sentences that only work in a consensual, linear-perceived reality. That only transforms the knowledge back into a lesser form of knowledge, hence the 'strange language'. Yet for thousands of years 'awakened' individuals have tried to explain the knowledge in tomes that became the core of belief systems and religions, so nothing being discussed here is new. We're all experiencing this knowledge at our own pace. I do think some people spend too much time treating it like a personal game console but this stage is also mentioned in many of the ancient texts so perhaps some people need to go though it more than others. But how could you know there are fewer people at a certain level of understanding? Some of the most enlightened people may prefer to keep quiet and have you believe they're not as awake as they really are. At the end of the day no matter how much knowledge I attain (and I think Sageous would be the same) I will always say that I ultimately don't know anything.

Quote:

---

Lemme be clear first of all, I don't believe myself better than others. And the levels of awareness thing, the way I see it is more like what stage of the journey you're on. Right now I'm quite a lot "higher" than I was yesterday because I've learned things, made realizations and such. Even your response there has taken me to this higher level we're talking about, but it doesn't mean I'm any better than I was before, I just understand more. More is settled in my mind. I do apologize for the words I'm using, I fuck that shit up in the simplest of conversations

---

Still sounds more like "I am more aware and understand more than most", but I don't think you are trying to sound pretentious, you stumbled in an already heated a little debate, so every word you said was kind of taken apart. :P

Also, WB Slash, it has been a while. Hope to see you around the forum some more! :peek:

"Awakening"...
Once, I thought I was on the path of the so called awakening, spiritual path, meditation, a lot of readings and practice, eckhart Tolle, krishnamurti, and so on, I was drinking all their words, was part of non duality meetings, bla bla bla. I met a lot of "awoken" people... I thought that I was understanding the truth...
So I was feeling that I was "awakening" until the day I "understood" that awakening may be just another belief.
So did I make a step further toward the awakening process now that I "understand" that "understanding" is very much likely to rather mean "believing"?

What if one day, like me, you "understand" that there is maybe nothing to understand and that "awakening" is just a deeper step in the beliefs world?
Maybe the self fooling brain has no limits in this ability to adopt new beliefs and consider them as truths by calling them "understanding".

1) Dreams are a part of reality

2) Reality is the basis of dreams

However, there is nothing real about the content of dreams except the dreamer and their subconscious.

If you think reality has dream like qualities, please find a tall building and jump and fly :)

Reality is real, but our perceptions of it, like our dreams are not real (but our own personal approximations). They, Life and Dreams, are distorted by our experiences. Thus our perceptions and dreams are not equal to those of others. However, the shared reality remains real, concrete, and will outlast us all (even if none of us ever understands it). Compared to reality none of our perceived Lives or Dreams amount to much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei

Still sounds more like "I am more aware and understand more than most", but I don't think you are trying to sound pretentious, you stumbled in an already heated a little debate, so every word you said was kind of taken apart. :P

Also, WB Slash, it has been a while. Hope to see you around the forum some more! :peek:

---

Peoples are forgetting one thing, the purpose of this thread was for Wisher to find others like himself. He used all these weird words and it caused uproar as he predicted. But remember that his words were there for the sole purpose of drawing out others like himself. And if I got this right, I am on a similar path to him.
I've been looking for others like myself too, and again this is why I use weird words. It's simply to draw out others like myself.
Looking back on it though, I can see how bad it all looks to anyone that isn't me haha, so I'm gunna try explain myself...

"I am more aware", anyone can say these words but they mean nothing unless you know where they coming from. Aware of what? Some people are aware of some things, others are aware of others. I am simply referring to an awareness of a specific thing, and someone who is similar to me as a person will be aware of the specific thing I'm talking about because they have went through similar thought processes to me. "I understand more". I never once said that I understand more than others. I did say that I understand more than I did yesterday, which is true and there's literally nothing wrong with that. I can't possibly know how much everyone else understands, and again, understand what? Most people in this world understand more than me, I'm a feckin idiot really. But I have dedicated my life to understanding specific things, so what? (and Kaan, I'm aware of the connection between belief and understanding, so this paragraph is probably laughable to you, but note that I'm using the term "understanding" quite loosely, look at my meaning not my words)

I'm not here to try show people what I see, I don't need to prove anything. The things I do are to prove to myself, not others. I've heard Buddhism being referred to as "science of the self" or something like that, but it basically is saying that you can prove this shit to yourself using scientific method. So if anyone wants to debate this stuff, debate it with yourself (that sounded cheeky haha but I didn't mean it, seriously, debate it with yourself).
But I do enjoy talking about it and it does help me to write stuff down to realize where I'm going wrong. Perhaps I'm a bit of a twat for plastering all my unorganized thoughts over the internet, but I've always loved DV for the fact that you're not slated for your outlook, you're celebrated for it.


For what it's worth, this new outlook has given me a peace of mind I've been searching for, for a long time. It has caused a massive mess in my mind, but that's in the process of being tidied up. You guys have unwittingly helped me on this journey by the way, so thank you.


Oh also, all this talk of being better than each other, to me it just sounds ridiculous. I mean, let's even ignore for a moment the fact that we are one. The truths that I chase are not complex truths. Show me a banana and I will tell you it's a banana, I don't expect a round of applause for that. But the fact that the banana is a banana means a lot to me personally. But the simplest of truths cause the most pain and the most confusion. It's a bit like "why the hell didn't I already see that?" or "why doesn't everyone else see this?" or "is that it? seriously?" or "jesus what the fuck is the point then". Dealing with these emotions is the true journey that we refer to, and it can take a lifetime to resolve, or it may never be resolved. But it's our own choice to chase it or not...


Also, thanks Sensei, missed ya brah :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei

If I remember correctly, this is similar to what wisher (and a few others) were chatting about the other day. specifically life being a dream, dreams effect reality, and the law of attraction being similar. I guess my big question, for both of you, is that, if you have attained this godlike power, then what have you actually done with it? I have yet to see someone flying across the sky or solving world hunger or achieving world peace. with such power i imagine one would have a lot of responsibility. I use this mainly because this is what people ask Christians (me) about their supposed all loving God that lets children starve when he has all the power and mock when we say it doesnt work like that. Of course I am sure that your new avility doesnt work like that, because I bet you would have tried something similar (plus if my reading the secret is a reminder, other people all unwittingly bring their own destruction and cause pain to others by willing it).

I am sure that you also wont get fame, money or power because of ethical reasons (though you think of yourselves as gods or at least that everyone is a god and you have just refound access to him/yourself) for some reason, even though you could easily bring money and power and influence to you for good. so now that I have hopefully answered my own questions, I leave one unanswered, what good have you done in the world with this power? I am not asking this demeaningly, but if there is a powerful force out there, I would like to know about it.

---

Just realized I didn't answer any of this properly. First off, we are not all gods, that's not what I meant. I meant we are all part of god. What is God? Well it's just a word, but God is described usually as an all-powerful, all-present and all-knowing being. To me (this is just the way I look at it), yes that is all true because God is everything.
Zoom out a sec, picture the whole world in your mind, now zoom out further to the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, then the multiverse, then all of time and the other dimensions. Keep zooming out til you just get all of reality in your view, you are now looking at God. We are not seperate from God/the universe, we are a part of it.

Now, what good have I done? Well you don't have to do good with it, you don't have to do anything in particular. But every day I do my best for those that come in contact with me. I'm also planning to start a business that will help millions. What power do I speak of that will allow me to do so much good in the world? It's the same power everyone else has. The moment I put the thought in my mind of creating a business was the moment I used this "power" we speak of. Or the moment I put the thought in my head to give a homeless guy some loose change out my wallet. My actions thereafter are a result of the thought. The simple truth here is, if you want to do something, you do it. Anyone here can change the world single-handedly if they put their mind to it.

^^ Interesting points all, Slash, and I for one really can't find much to argue with or complain about (some of what you said even reflects my own story of discovery). Except:

First, what you are discussing here is reasonable, well thought out, familiar to me personally, and has a solid base in the roots of seeking "More," or of being more aware. That's fine. But the odd thing is that, though other posters brought similar thoughts in defense of Wisher, none of that is what Wisher said in his OP or his subsequent posts. He didn't once speak of being more aware, or of knowledge, or of seeking anything; no, he spoke of "Real dreamers" and, in fairly disparaging terms, the "fake" dreamers or not-real dreamers; with real dreamers being folks like him, who have come to believe real dreaming involves understanding that life and dreams are the same thing (which is a curious jumping off point for assuming superiority, in my opinion, because, as CooleyMd noted above, that superiority is based on what is arguably a delusion).

Also, though my radar is usually well tuned for them, I seemed to have missed those "special" words Wisher was apparently using, because to me he seemed to be speaking specifically and clearly about his being a "Real Dreamer," and pretty much everyone else, to him, being lesser, fake, or normal dreamers who are both not as good at this stuff as he is, but also have no interest in getting any better. All he wanted was to find other "Real dreamers" who have apparently elevated themselves above the plane of regular, or fake dreamers. I think if you reread the OP, you might see something similar, and if you read on in the thread you'll see that all the high-minded conversation, and the defenses of Wisher's posts, came from people other than him.

Finally, at the risk of channeling Socrates, and possibly repeating something I may have said earlier, I offer a little caveat: In my experience, people who actually are more aware tend to keep it to themselves -- even when speaking to each other. I would assume that this is because people who are actually more aware are humbled by what their increased awareness is teaching them about how little they really know. They understand, for instance, that in the Grand Scheme of Things they are pretty much the same as everyone else, and see no sense in pronouncing their superiority -- much less in purposely forming a club for superiors.

tl;dr: You are sharing admirable thoughts, Slash, but they really have nothing to do with Wisher's proposed "Real Dreamer's" club [my phrase, not his].

P.S. Also, advance apologies to Wisher for what might seem to be a surly bout of passive aggression directed his way; that was not intended.

Another fantastic reply Sage, thank you so much for putting the effort in there.

I do keep veering off into irrelevant stuff. The thing is though, when I read his OP, I see something in his meaning resembling something I've felt before myself. He asked if anyone else is awake, and I feel I am what he calls "awake", so everything I've said has been an attempt to show Wisher how I look at the world, to see if I am indeed who he is looking for.

Although, I did just read the OP again, and I can see I didn't actually address the topic he wanted to discuss haha. I did talk about how thoughts create reality, but with that in mind I can see how lucid dreaming could be a really powerful tool if used right. Practice of a skill within a lucid dream has been shown to work as a genuine form of practice if I remember rightly (but c'mon think about it, it makes sense). Now, if for example you were to practice some skill in real life, the law of attraction will bring you closer to a reality which involves that skill. Practicing it in a lucid dream would therefore also bring you closer to that reality. Maybe over-simplifying it here but you get the idea?

You are talking about the terminology he uses. "Real dreamer" is just a term, I don't look at the words, I look at the meaning. But I'm often slow to the punch, so I maybe misunderstood a little bit. The only thing I knew for sure was that when he said "real dreamer", he was referring to himself. So to understand what he meant by "real dreamer", you've gotta try figure out who he actually is, and then the difficult bit is figuring out which part of himself makes him this "real dreamer". To me it looked as if the part of himself he was referring to was his awakening. He literally asked if anyone else is "awake", it all made sense. Everyone else's posts has done nothing but confuse me haha, but that's a good thing because it has pushed me to resolve a few things in my mind.

And by the way, my posts in this thread are the first time I have ever tried to put these thoughts down in words, I'm sure I'm communicating them terribly. I've never even tried to put these thoughts out to that girl I met online, we just kinda talk about what we want to talk about and somehow we share the same perspective.

Right now I've got so many thoughts running about my head unorganized, so I apologize for hitting everyone here with it all. You have a point Sage, I can see why you would want to keep quiet about this stuff. I feel as though I want to shout it all to the world haha, but I get that you can't just do that, for so many reasons. But I still might shout it to the world, I don't know yet haha, but I sure ain't doing it right now, I just feel safe enough in DV Beyond Dreaming to come out with it right now.
To be honest I don't know how to proceed and I don't even know what I'm doing right now, but I just don't care, all I'm doing is listening to myself/the universe/life and allowing myself to act. I'm quite content to go through this particular (albeit confusing) journey because I'm starting to step into myself and that feels good no matter what.


I'm clinging to the edge of my seat waiting for Wisher to appear again haha, this has gone off the rails xD

Fuck sake slash, missed a big ass point again haha...

Yeah I can see that he has a superiority complex. But I really don't think he means to. I highly doubt he believes himself "better" than others. Perhaps just better *at something* than others. Is there anything wrong with that? Is it a delusional? Pretty sure it's not, cause I know that you can get one person that's good at X and another person will be utter shit at it. (I genuinely want to know if you have a comeback for that one haha, I find myself wondering if I'm missing something)

Furthermore, he will be early in his journey just like me. I'm sure in the future he will take a different route to meet others like himself, but all he has done is send out a message which holds the power to bring out certain types of people. Will he learn from all these responses or will he continue down the path of delusion? Who knows, but we're all doing our part right now.


EDIT: Although he did talk about gaining some advantage in the afterlife. I would love to debate that one, but its not worth the energy, especially because I'm not ready to talk about my thoughts on the afterlife yet :P But it does sound like he might have a narrow view on that, but I haven't seen enough to quite get what his meaning is.

Hahahaha I just noticed something else.

Wisher has been selectively reading stuff. He's only seeing what he wants to see. But funnily enough it's like he's holding a mirror up to me. I must admit that I have always been bad for it too haha, as I've proven in this thread. But if he's anything like me, the penny will drop sooner or later and he will feel like an idiot.

Then again, is this not human nature? Or, human condition if you want to look at it that way?

Why is it so hard to get out of the rabbit hole once you dive in? I just want to go deeper and deeper into this shit, but where will it take me? Deeper into delusion?

If you know what I know then we will find each other. There's no need to actively seek out others. It would feel to me like forcing something that doesn't need to be forced.

Touché Daniele, thats a great point that's been sorely overlooked here. Personally, I ain't forcing nothing, I'm just acting the way I act. I've already let go of the idea of searching for things. Yeah I'd love to draw out those like me, but I'm not forcing it cause I know that since stepping into myself I've been drawing my people to me, or drawing myself to those people, or both, or neither, or it doesn't matter cause I just know I'm gunna meet the people I need to meet. But right now it feels like if I was to do anything other than reply to this thread, it would actually be forcing myself away, cause life pulled me towards the thread like a fuckin supermagnet... get me?
I stumbled upon this thread by accident and now I'm in a heated and fast paced forum conversation that has helped me tremendously, that's all I really see. I mean I dunno if Wisher was forcing it though, but I do hope to see him come back and I hope the thread helps him even half as much as it has me.

Come to think of it, I do sense Wisher's desire to control everything, so he probably was trying to force it. But I'm saying a lot of things about Wisher that I don't know, so he needs to get his ass back here xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wisher

It is mind-blowing how few people are actually DREAMERS.

---

Everyone is a dreamer. That's dreaming 101. I think there are a few rare medical conditions or brain surgery complications that make people NOT dream...but that cant be more than 1-2% of the population.

Quote:

---

LUCID DREAMING IS NOT A HOBBY PLAYTHING PAST TIME

---

It most definitely can be and often is. Who are you to tell me how to use my dreams?

Quote:

---

LUCID DREAMING IS REALITY
LUCID DREAMING WILL TRANSFORM THE WORLD BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES

---

Lucidity, aka Awareness, changes an individuals perception, and therefore changes their relationship with their own reality (reality, as I use it, includes dreams and waking life) but that is as much sense as I can squeeze out of your words here, and I don't think that was your intended meaning.

Quote:

---

The baby food of techniques and basic definitions is great...for the babies. But there is DEFINITELY some people who are eating real food. People who are awake.

---

Who you calling a baby? I'm grateful I learned the techniques and nomenclature of lucid dreaming. It gives everyone tools that are tested and a common language which is vital in every scientific field in order to further study. More importantly, once you practice this "baby food" you can see why a technique exists in the first place, why it works, or what it implies about the working of the human mind. Impractical knowledge becomes practical experience. Hopefully from that point you can take an idea further, learn something new, and come back, enriching all of us with your experience, ESPECIALLY the ones who are still on a diet of mashed peas and WBTB techniques.

Quote:

---

Oii........if this post falls on deaf ears whatever. For the love of DREAMS though. If you are awake say something.
Where are you? What do you know? Let's grow this thing.

---

um...doing my best?

Y'know what I just realized.......

...

...


I love you guys :D (nah I already knew that)

I just wanted to say, when I started posting in this thread, I was going through an intense transition lol.

I think the main thing I should say now is, life is a dream and you can actually attain lucidity. In doing this, it's possible to find your true self, and you can see what everything else actually is (including the fact that it's a part of yourself). When you do that... when you actually see through the eyes of your true self... well, nothing fuckin matters anymore haha, except everything matters. cept it don't...

But the moment I start using words is the moment I create misunderstandings for most readers, so, fuck...



P.S. The path to enlightenment drives some people to suicide. As far as I can tell, it's due to misunderstandings and delusions. If only they knew who they really were... Or perhaps some of them did know it and simply watched themselves end a story. But either way, they are the unfortunate ones. Some however will find beauty in their path and embrace whatever comes. Some will think nothing of it because they quickly find this simple beingness. Some will see the infinite beautiful possibilities for the future and move towards whatever they want, but without getting absorbed in a nonexistent future.

So really, everyone is different, but if truth is what one seeks, one should follow that path in their own beautiful way. If truth scares you, by all means look the other fuckin way