Astral Projection and shared dreaming is nonsense

**Dthoughts** · 03-25-2015 12:17 AM

I will let Voldmer decide if he wants to pick apart this article. He can certainly do it more eloquently than I can.

I only agree with the last statement. Because it is true that there is no evidence of OBE happening outside the body. There is also no evidence for the existence of lifeforms on other planets. Also the study mentioned done by Susan Blackmore sounds to me like these people are better meditators that's all. I would be very amazed how someone would measure "fantasy-prone".

And there are evidentual clues that out of brain experience exist. In the theory that most people assume the consciousness in my brain can not contact the consciousness in another without a medium. These clues are subjective. And hard to explain. But for me it is enough to Occam's Razor in favor of OBEs. I would appreciate it if people would respect that belief if others have it. In return I will not push my belief unto you either.

**user5659** · 03-25-2015 01:00 AM

You are trying to give an exact definition to something that is not understood yet, you cannot. Every definition you come up with, is understood differently by every member of this forum. This is endless.

Wherever OBE/AP is happening, physical or non-physical, it is able to interact with our waking world and its not always our own imagination/hallucination, it is able to interact with other people. Since long time I was thinking of the possibility of bringing something from dreaming world to waking world, I always tried to bring something physical, but never succeeded. However I had several cases where sound from my lucid dream(was dreaming in the room I was sleeping in, you can call it OBE) was clearly heard by people in the same room, sleeping close to me. That changed my views on dreaming in general, gave me a lot of clues in which direction to move. This is another proof that it is not a hallucination/imagination in my head only. I am saying this from my experience and I am not trying to prove anything yet.
If you are trying to answer a simple question for your self, is this only in your head? I can save your time and answer its not.

You rely on definitions like dimensions, realities, worlds, physical/non-physical. These are all theories as well. If there are multi-dimensions, nobody knows for sure how they operate, nobody has any clue what is going on there. Are there 2, 3, 5, 10 or maybe infinite amount of dimensions? how dynamic are they? can they merge? Is it possible to move from one dimension to another and how fast is the transition? Is it possible to exist in several dimensions at the same time?
And now add complexity of time to all these questions and you are doomed.

**Voldmer** · 03-25-2015 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kaan

-in one hand we have some kind of experiences (AS/OBE) that have plenty in common with dreams but that some people believe or even claim that it happens in some parallel non physical realities, but without any way of having a proof of it, but their subjective conviction.

True.

We also only have subjective conviction of the brains physical existence.

**shadowofwind** · 03-28-2015 09:36 PM

I suspect that part of the reason that some people have 'out of body' experiences is they are not intuitively comfortable with the idea of instantaneous action at a distance. Being 'out of body' is in part a metaphor for that intuitive reach.

Some people think in terms of a spirit/body dualism, but tend to think of the spirit as if it is an invisible, fluid, physical thing. Is a magnetic field physical? We regard it as physical, since some people understand a lot about it now, but it has characteristics that would commonly be called spiritual. A lot of it seems to me to amount to semantics. Personally I think of everything as being physical, but the way I think about it might seem pretty weird and abstract to some other people.

Where is algebra? If I write down an equation, it is on a piece of paper. But is what I have written algebra, or a symbol for an aspect of it? If I think about it, the symbol is in my brain, presumably. But algebra is everywhere and nowhere, it is not a location kind of thing.

I presume that brain activity does not go down when a person has an out of body experience, and I guess this has been tested, since there are devices that can trigger out of body experiences. I don't see what this says about 'where' a dream is. I think that we know that the brain is involved, but the content of the dream doesn't have a where.

I agree that the lack of any mathematical/theoretical model describing telepathy is a problem. But it is a problem most of all for people who are obsessed with such models. It is not a problem in the same way for most people in the world.

**Psionik** · 04-07-2015 10:19 AM

As I use to say:
Dream is being inside subconsciously projected fantasy and not knowing that.
Lucid dream is being inside subconsciously projected fantasy and knowing that.
OBE is a state where the theater of subconscious mind loses consistency and you start to see beyond sceneries.

I can sometimes move from LD to OBE... it is quite difficult for me. The state of mind is different... it feels different.
On other side it is relatively easy to fall down from OBE state to LD - all that is needed is to start imagination run wild. I can feel decreasing consciousness when I lose control of subconscious mind. I don't like that feeling. Imagine you have your normal IQ and for some reason your mind starts to lose your normal intelligence... Everything what was clear at start of process is at the end of it obscure, inconceivable. But you remember... It is the same with losing higher level of consciousness typical for OBE. Unpleasant is weak word for it

**kadie** · 04-17-2015 05:01 AM

Well put psionick.

**Psionik** · 04-24-2015 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

You are trying to give an exact definition to something that is not understood yet, you cannot. Every definition you come up with, is understood differently by every member of this forum. This is endless.

Wherever OBE/AP is happening, physical or non-physical, it is able to interact with our waking world and its not always our own imagination/hallucination, it is able to interact with other people. Since long time I was thinking of the possibility of bringing something from dreaming world to waking world, I always tried to bring something physical, but never succeeded. However I had several cases where sound from my lucid dream(was dreaming in the room I was sleeping in, you can call it OBE) was clearly heard by people in the same room, sleeping close to me. That changed my views on dreaming in general, gave me a lot of clues in which direction to move. This is another proof that it is not a hallucination/imagination in my head only. I am saying this from my experience and I am not trying to prove anything yet.
If you are trying to answer a simple question for your self, is this only in your head? I can save your time and answer its not.

You rely on definitions like dimensions, realities, worlds, physical/non-physical. These are all theories as well. If there are multi-dimensions, nobody knows for sure how they operate, nobody has any clue what is going on there. Are there 2, 3, 5, 10 or maybe infinite amount of dimensions? how dynamic are they? can they merge? Is it possible to move from one dimension to another and how fast is the transition? Is it possible to exist in several dimensions at the same time?
And now add complexity of time to all these questions and you are doomed.

Well from string theory we know that there is 11 dimensions. we live in 4D space in which ather 7 dimensions are very small and invisible from our view. I'm not sure if that additional 7 dimensions are dimensions where we can project, or dimensions where we are projecting are nonphysical...

I'm not sure I project somewhere when I go out of body, I only feel it. If not for a few indices of reality intersection in my premonitions and future seeings, I would say that there is 99.99+ probability that my OBEs are different kind of dreams.
Then I remember people saying that they were seen on different place while out of body. I'm not 100% sure they didn't try to convince people of their belief contrary to fact...
What if all of this is dream... either individual or communal. And we believe in reality of this world... but... what if there is only dream everywhere... created by ourselves as crutch or for fun, but we don't remember about it.