Thread: Rapid Eye Mouvements are only indications of dream activity that is closely connected to ...

Hey people

What do you think about this quote :

"The eye movements noted in the beginning of REM sleep are only indications of dream activity that is closely connected to the physical layers of the self. These periods mark not the onset of dreams, but the return of the personality from deeper layers of dream awareness to more surface areas." Seth

I disagree pretty much with the entire quote. Eye movement is characteristic of whole REM, not just the beginning. On the other hand, it isn't clear what he means by the majority of his sentences (what's a physical layer of the self? it's not like we have any other kind of layer that is non-physical). Of course the beginning of REM doesn't mark the onset of dreams, research has proved that we dream practically in every stage to some degree. And the last sentence: just what?

To me, these exotic quotes tend to be so vague that everyone can interpret them in their own way and thus think they make complete sense and possess a clear truth 0o

Don't the rapid eye movements also help supply oxygen to cornea, apart from being an indication that someone is dreaming? Correct me if I am wrong, but there is quite a bit more going on--dreaming a very complicated process.

I can't really disagree with what is said in that quote; however, it does seem like that person has their head in the clouds. It sounds like an abstract/Freudian, reductionist claim that has not yet been proven, unfortunately. On the other hand, his presumptions do make sense to me, and I can definitely see where he is coming from.

I think what the quote means is: There are dreams that are simply feelings, sounds, images etc. So the only time your eyes move during a dream is when you are actually a physical being inside the dream. Because If you don't have a perspective as a character in your dream, you don't have an eyes to move.

I pretty much agree with this quote. Because during the NREM sleep the ego - the physical self dissapears and returns to non-form. During these stages of sleep there is no you. You do not have personality. All you have there is nothing. There is just emptyness and fullness at the same time. The start of REM sleep brings back the ego and dual awareness.

The sleep yogis use the deep sleep for losing the ego and going to the source by being aware during the deep and later during REM sleep.

Originally Posted by Samick

I pretty much agree with this quote. Because during the NREM sleep the ego - the physical self dissapears and returns to non-form. During these stages of sleep there is no you. You do not have personality. All you have there is nothing. There is just emptyness and fullness at the same time. The start of REM sleep brings back the ego and dual awareness.

The sleep yogis use the deep sleep for losing the ego and going to the source by being aware during the deep and later during REM sleep.

Most of my LDs are NREM (I can only WBTB on the weekends because of school), so I've had a lot of experience with NREM dreams. I disagree with this. My NREM LDs are usually about the same as REM dreams. Unless I'm forcing myself into REM, I don't think REM has any effect on dreaming.

For those who dont understand... this quote means that :
We "dream" not only in REM, but the REM stage indicates only that "we"(consciousness or the self) is close to the "physical". When we dont move our eyes it does not mean that we don't dream, according to Seth it means only that the consciousness is far from the physical body.
For him all dreams, imagination or hallucinations are real in some degree in others dimensions.

Of course we dont have the scientific proof of this, but the science can't prove either its opposite.

That depends on what you would accept as proof, wouldn't it?

As science already dictates, the brain is solely responsible for dreaming, and since the brain is physical, this claim is rendered moot. The mechanisms that create the hallucinations are actually real events: the mechanism responsible for REM originates in the brainstem, while the hallucinations can be attributed to dopaminergic systems that primarily originate in the forebrain areas, which are processed by the occipital-temporal-parietal junction. Inter-dimensionality need not apply.

If there is a change in dream content and awareness, that is something that would need to be studied. This claim is purely anecdotal.

Originally Posted by Earthatic

That depends on what you would accept as proof, wouldn't it?

As science already dictates, the brain is solely responsible for dreaming, and since the brain is physical, this claim is rendered moot. The mechanisms that create the hallucinations are actually real events: the mechanism responsible for REM originates in the brainstem, while the hallucinations can be attributed to dopaminergic systems that primarily originate in the forebrain areas, which are processed by the occipital-temporal-parietal junction. Inter-dimensionality need not apply.

If there is a change in dream content and awareness, that is something that would need to be studied. This claim is purely anecdotal.

The science proves only that the brain is active while we dream. That's the only proof. When you hallucinate or dream (perceive others dimensions reallity) the brain maybe translate this in terms of effects in the brain. Even when we think, we can see the effects in the brain. But it is not a real proof that thoughts or dreams comes from the brain. Its just a proof that the brain works in such activities.
I dont say that I'm right or wrong. I just say what I think. Our actual science is based on a very old concepts...
If you have a real proof that dreams or thoughts originates from the brain I would really like to see it. I'm not talking about the proof that the brain is active when we think or dream but the proof who shows clearly that the brain CREATES this.

Who is Seth?

I don't agree. I do however think that the quote and the explanation seem far away from each other. . I don't agree with either forms of it though. Our consciousness is in our body when we sleep, I often can feel the dream collapsing, and at least for me it feels like I am in my body, even when I feel two bodies it feels like one is inside another realm created by the mind that only exists there. It is a weird state, but that is how it feels for me. So in my experience that is just something weird that this person felt and that all NREM dreams are OBEs is a very weird state.
Also "science can't prove your consciousness is there" but if your consciousness wasn't in your body then when someone tried to wake you up you would wake unless you were in REM, because it is that slight consciousness that alerts you to alarms, shaking, water etc... So you can put that in an experiment if you want, but I can tell you the result. "Science" is gonna say that if there is a consciousness, it is there at that time.

Is this talking about lucid REM or just REM in general?

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

Who is Seth?

I don't agree. I do however think that the quote and the explanation seem far away from each other. . I don't agree with either forms of it though. Our consciousness is in our body when we sleep, I often can feel the dream collapsing, and at least for me it feels like I am in my body, even when I feel two bodies it feels like one is inside another realm created by the mind that only exists there. It is a weird state, but that is how it feels for me. So in my experience that is just something weird that this person felt and that all NREM dreams are OBEs is a very weird state.
Also "science can't prove your consciousness is there" but if your consciousness wasn't in your body then when someone tried to wake you up you would wake unless you were in REM, because it is that slight consciousness that alerts you to alarms, shaking, water etc... So you can put that in an experiment if you want, but I can tell you the result. "Science" is gonna say that if there is a consciousness, it is there at that time.

Is this talking about lucid REM or just REM in general?

"Our consciousness is in our body when we sleep." Really? Do you have a scientific proof or it is just your belief? When someone wakes you up it maybe shows that some part of your consciousness is connected to it. I say maybe because I dont pretend to know all, like some people pretend it.
If everything is IN the brain how do you explain : remote viewing, deja vu, premonitory dreams? And so much more...
Some people dont Think, and accept too fast "actual science". In the past science said so much bulls**t, it is not something "ABSOLUTE" because it changes.

Originally Posted by astralboy

"Our consciousness is in our body when we sleep." Really? Do you have a scientific proof or it is just your belief? When someone wakes you up it maybe shows that some part of your consciousness is connected to it. I say maybe because I dont pretend to know all, like some people pretend it.
If everything is IN the brain how do you explain : remote viewing, deja vu, premonitory dreams? And so much more...
Some people dont Think, and accept too fast "actual science". In the past science said so much bulls**t, it is not something "ABSOLUTE" because it changes.

Peoples belief of science changes, but science hasn't changed. Laws of science have stayed the same forever, if it is disproven then it never was.

I didn't say everything is in the brain, but our consciousness is. I think that those things are taken in by the brain in a different way than the normal, but they are still your brain interpreting what it recieves, just not through the normal ways. No proof, but it is what I believe. I have been wrong before, and am always fine with being proven wrong, it means I learned something new.

I am moving this to beyond dreaming as it has nothing to do with LDing (that you have said) and you are talking about it in the same sense as BD stuff.

If you have a real proof that dreams or thoughts originates from the brain I would really like to see it. I'm not talking about the proof that the brain is active when we think or dream but the proof who shows clearly that the brain CREATES this.

Okay...



As for other examples, people with lesions in some parts of the brain (like the brain stem) are unable to dream. You seem to attack science at something it was already stablished decades ago. Besides, science is based on replication studies throughout time, so to say it is based on very old concepts...the neuroscience of dreaming is quite recent you know. You just seem to defend substance dualism regarding dreaming, which is a invalid concept without any grounds to stand up by itself.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Okay...



As for other examples, people with lesions in some parts of the brain (like the brain stem) are unable to dream. You seem to attack science at something it was already stablished decades ago. Besides, science is based on replication studies throughout time, so to say it is based on very old concepts...the neuroscience of dreaming is quite recent you know. You just seem to defend substance dualism regarding dreaming, which is a invalid concept without any grounds to stand up by itself.

Sorry, but it proves only that the brain translates the consciousness's experiences for need of the physical body.
My theory is that the brain is just a machine that translate experiences for the physical body, so if one personne "don't dream" it is beacause when her/his consciousness is totally in the physical body, her/his brain can't translate it because of the lesions or other problemes, because the parts of the brain that do this aren't functionnal. But it does not prove that he/she didn't had these experiences. When you do something and forget it, it does not mean that you never done it.

Actually, science also shows that if those areas of the brain are sufficiently damaged, the subject will no longer be able to dream; it's called Charcot–Wilbrand syndrome. If you damage certain areas of the brain stem, a subject will experience loss (or even complete cessation) of REM. You can even trigger REM sleep through cholinergic stimulation of the pontine reticular formation.

EDIT: it looks like zoth00 already mentioned this! BTW, damage to these areas of the brainstem just ceases REM, not dreaming.

Also, stimulation of the dopaminergic pathways can cause an increase in dream frequency and make them even more vivid--without affecting REM/atonia.

The mechanisms responsible for REM and that which is responsible for the hallucinations/dreams have been shown to be of separate origin, and one can actually function independently from the other, as studies have shown.

MRI scans show activity; neuroscientific studies and experiments confirm what is actually responsible. You can attempt to deny this in order to rationalize your conclusions, but your presumptions just don't hold water. Sorry.

I like how you say that the dream/consciousness doesn't come from the brain, but you actually don't develop further where it comes from. I'm assuming it has a non-physical source (you talk a lot about physical on your posts), but since you dodge most of the evidence that has been played out in front of you, who knows.

Where it comes from? ^^
From "YOU" not from the meat. I dont believe one second that the real "we" IS meat or brain.
Seriously when you watch your finger or when you feel "your heart", Or if you could see your brain would you really say to yourself "THIS IS ME!! or I AM THIS" ? Or are you the AWARNESS who say IT? Why do you say "my" heart or "my" body... Maybe because we know it inside of our self... I dont know.
Like many philosophers said it, I believe and experience that ... we are "consciousness" or "spirit". The physical body is its effect. Science can't disapprove. Quantum physics is closer to prove this than disapprove.
All "dreamers" here can understand it better than anyone else, because they "live" it. Of course most of them are on the "basic" plane of the dream who is manipulated by the mind. But there is other dimensions... and I call it "dreams" too. Or projections.
No Dream is created by the brain. All dreams are real in some degree and/or "dimensions". For me remote viewing, deja vu, premonitory dreams are proofs of this. If consciousness was only in the brain all this would not be possible.

For me the brain is only an interpreter for the physical body, who interpret the consciousness data for the physical body. And yes, the science can prove that it is active while dreaming, or thinking... but science dont prove that the brain is the creator of dreams or thinking.

Well. I agree with the fact about spirits, or souls (would be more appropriate in Bible terms if you are a tricotomist), because it is in the Bible and that we posses bodies on the earth, but according to the Bible, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" so I do not believe that we are absent till we die (or the Lord calls us up). So I do not agree with the rest of what you say at all. Could you just give straight up what you believe about it and why it happens. A lot of what you say seems disconnected.

Also... Who is Seth?

I'm not a religious person... I'm not interested in religion.
But I was in the past and even now I love read the Bible. Just I dont take as a "fact" what Bible says. For me it is just a very beautiful book, with much wisdom like hindu scriptures or some others "holy" books. Please dont forget that the Bible is written in symbolic language. And the problem is that everyone can interpret it as he wants. There are so many different religions or churches based on the same book... the Bible. There is even a quote that says that we are gods...
Religion is only a belief. I'm interested in things that I can experiment or prove to myself.

To answer your question... Yes I believe we are souls, or spiritual beings and every time we sleep, we (or some part of us) go outside of our physical bodies. What we call "dreams" are in fact out of physical body experiences, for me. I dont believe in a "Lord". The soul and "God" are one thing for me. Like the drop of the ocean and the ocean itself.


Seth is entity (or spirit) channeled by Jane Roberts, He talks much about "spiritual" things and life. But in general, religious people dont like him because for them it is a Devil lol. Personnaly I see nothing evil in his books. What I love about him is that everything he say, you can experiment or prove to yourself. He dont ask you to believe him, God, or devil, or angels ... but only yourself and your experience. Some people say Jane Roberts is a fraud and that is not a "spirit" who talks but herself. Even if it is the case I dont care because for me the messages are "real". Like Jesus, I'm not sure if he really existed but I know that his messages are real and good for the humanity (love, peace, forgiveness...)

I recommand to all dreamers the Frank Kepple's posts from Astral Pulse. I think he is a great explorer

Originally Posted by astralboy

Seth is entity (or spirit) channeled by Jane Roberts, He talks much about "spiritual" things and life.

Wow.

I didn't think anyone but me remembered Seth or Jane Roberts, his ersatz projector. Pretty amazing how the truly hopeful stuff sticks around, I guess... no matter how bizarre.

Ah, interesting stuff. I don't have much answer for a lot of it. I agree that the entity is either a "demon" or part of herself (like tulpa), but that doesn't mean I think she is "stupid, delusional, evil (er... More evil than everyone else), or the worst person ever".

Also. I beleive in a literal translation of the wholr Bible, in all its weird quirks. The question isn't whether or not Jesus existed, but if he was God like he said he was, there is piles and pikes of evidence that Jesus lived and healed people, including 500 witness accounts of him after hanging on the cross. check out the book "the case for Christ" by Lee strobel, it is all about that.

That is a little off topic, but now that I know 100% what this topic is about I don't have anything further to say. I don't agree, but me and you have different world views, so it would be hard to resolve anything without resolving that, and this isn't the place for that.

happy dreaming... Er, maybe "happy traveling" would fit better for you.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

Ah, interesting stuff. I don't have much answer for a lot of it. I agree that the entity is either a "demon" or part of herself (like tulpa), but that doesn't mean I think she is "stupid, delusional, evil (er... More evil than everyone else), or the worst person ever".

Also. I beleive in a literal translation of the wholr Bible, in all its weird quirks. The question isn't whether or not Jesus existed, but if he was God like he said he was, there is piles and pikes of evidence that Jesus lived and healed people, including 500 witness accounts of him after hanging on the cross. check out the book "the case for Christ" by Lee strobel, it is all about that.

That is a little off topic, but now that I know 100% what this topic is about I don't have anything further to say. I don't agree, but me and you have different world views, so it would be hard to resolve anything without resolving that, and this isn't the place for that.

happy dreaming... Er, maybe "happy traveling" would fit better for you.

Lol Do you think it is intelligent to criticize or judge someone as "demon" before even reading it? I dont think so. It is not what Jesus learned you "Don't judge" lol And in the Bible there is nothing that conredict what I say. When you say : "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. so I do not believe that we are absent till we die (or the Lord calls us up)"
The bible says : "we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord." When you say "so I do not believe that we are absent till we die" It is just your belief or your interpretation of that verse. It is not written in that verse or the Bible that "we are not absent till we die"
And what is a "dream" in the Bible ? There is a Jacob's dream who says that he dreamed of Lord and angels... Genesis 28:10
Maybe in the Bible the word dream is a "projection" or "travel" ? =)

According to you, what you are doing is judging as well. That isn't quite what that verse is talking about. You should check out the context (verses before and after) and who he is talking to about what. if you compare what that verse is actually about and what I said, I did nothing wrong, because that verse is normally taken out of context. :/

I said "absent till we die (or the lord calls us up)" the lord called a lot of people up in dreams and in waking life (Revelation), so it left room for that. I don't think that every night we are with the Lord, that simply makes no sense. I believe that it is a rare occurrence. Also the context of that verse, Paul is talking about death. Check context.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

I don't think that every night we are with the Lord, that simply makes no sense. I believe that it is a rare occurrence.

And your belief is based on what verse ? lol

I won't debate more here...
I just have one last thing to say :

Imagine your physical body is "invisible" and that you are driving a car. We can only measure car's activity and car's effects. Because your body is not scientifically provable by the actual, present science. When you drive they see only the effects in the car. They see that the car engine is working and all other car's things. But they dont see You, and dont ask theyself the most important question. What is that thing who makes all that effects, what is that thing who "think" in that car... What or who is driving? They see just the car's effects and they conclude that the car is driving alone... there is nothing more. Just the car. They make the same mistake with our physical bodies. They can see just our bodies and its effects. And they conclude that there is nothing more or beyond.

You can find my metaphor stupid or funny, and that's what I think of present science when they say that thoughts, dreams (projections/nde...) come from the brain. I like science but "spirit" or "consciousness" is something "beyond" all actual measurment. So it is not mesurable but it does not prove that it does not exist. They observe physical phenomenas, and consciousness is not physical, but it can have physical effects. The brain is the physical organ of consciousness, so it is natural to see "effects" in the brain. But the brain is an effect of consciousness and not a "cause".

I'm not here to prove I'm right or wrong, I just want to share my point of view.
I know that we all have our beliefs and that our ego protects them. But it is good to think, question and criticise, even the Science. Because in 10 years they will have maybe different theories.
That's all I had to say. Thanks.