Thread: Exploring Delta Sleep

TiredPhil:

I finally checked out that video you posted, at least for a few unprepared minutes. It reminds me of the Ultra Meditation sessions I listened to back in the '90's -- without the pretty pictures, though. If you haven't tried those guys yet (sounds like you have, though), you might give them a listen too.

Feeling intrigued, and a little nostalgic, I think I'll give this a real try this week, with proper mental prep in place. I'll let you know how it went.

Thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by TiredPhil

Now I have tried dozens of different so called sound based meditations.
So many out there on the internet that a person could easily get lost in the confusion.
Then I searched Google for "Reaching delta sleep"
By chance, the first video I came across worked first time.
It only took me a min' or so, and I was in another state of mind. Eyes were closed
All external input ceased, and I was sat there in an inner mind state.
I could just detect my breath. Hands felt like they were swolen to a great extent.
The state lasted only ten mins' but the experience was new, and exciting.
Please have a listen with headphones, and give your opinion.
This is the only time I have ever been influenced by sound.
I am off to have another go, just to validate that it was the sound that caused the experience.

I did the meditation with eyes closed. The graphics made my eyes sore.

Interesting!

I was looking at the graphics, but all the while was distracted by thoughts of how to make the pictures bigger, more enveloping (without having to press my face against the screen). It seemed like a bit too much, especially when your mind creates similar pictures on its own. I'll have to try it with eyes closed as well.

Wow!!
I am highly interested in this!
And I think, I know, what you mean with the pause too - I had a first "really-WILD-like" DEILD with dream gone and being awake - and then there was something like this, before I began seeing a vista of my LD like through a camera-seeker - and went there with a sort of "woosch".
There was this - honestly almost blissfully empty - black moment.
And basically in the long run - I am most interested in working with my mind in LDs - so it almost sounds more attractive to me than REM LDs, when I read this.
Fantastic thread - thank you so much for sharing this with us!
Can't be found on every corner, definitively - I have read something about it only once, not much - and don't even know, where - not on here.
How is it going with your delta-exploration at the moment?
I know, I didn't even have a regular WILD without connection to a dream just before - but I will probably try this anyway - can worst casely only fail.


Edit: It is a bit not so practical, that this is in beyond dreaming, I actually find - many more people might be interested!
Do you have it linked up prominently in your main WILD tutorial(s) maybe somewhere?
This is great stuff here!!
I also listened to the clip of yours TiredPhil - I like it, brings me in a meditative mood - will try!

^^ Thanks Steph!

My delta dives have been few and far between these days, as the focus they require has become quite elusive. But I do plan on setting aside some time next month to give this wonderful condition a little more attention... I'll post if anything interesting happens!

I love this thread. Finally I feel like I know what I have experienced so many times over the years. I have been trying to explain to gab what AT is like for me and this thread has helped to put names and explanations to things that I could not find the words for. I know what you mean by peace or bliss in the black nothingness! Its the most comforting, beautiful thing I have ever experienced. Sometimes I just want to stay in that state(I get HI) but its the feeling of being one with yourself and everything else. Its after this point that I AT if that was my intention. Mostly I find this "Delta" part the most rewarding.
Thank you a million times for this thread as I have been trying to figure out how to explain or describe this state of meditation, or self hypnosis, or AP or what ever. I know this is right.

Originally Posted by StephL

can worst casely only fail.

No, worst case you'll induce a shared dream by accident.

Just kidding.

Originally Posted by flowofmysoul

Sageous, i wrote this topic - http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ll-asleep.html

I am having two different ways of how i get lucid, in first one i know where is Delta Sleep, in second there is no delta sleep and no delay of dream, i get my dream before i fall asleep completely. What do you think is happening in second scenario?

noticed that kadie liked this post, just want to update it. Long time passed and I now understand how and why it seemed to me so before.

1- The moment where I notice Delta sleep is nREM WILD, I think that there is no REM WILD, but it is another topic. So it is nREM WILD followed by next stages of sleep, until the Delta sleep where I experience emptiness, complete void, followed by a blank space of recall, the next thing I remember is appeared in REM DILD dream.

2- Scenario where I said there is no delay of dream. Same thing, nREM WILD, followed by next sleep cycles including Delta sleep, followed by REM DILD.

The different is that in first case I recall nREM WILD and because of that I stay aware to notice Delta Sleep. When my REM starts, I appear in DILD. In second case I simply do not recall nREM WILD, what makes it impossible to notice Delta Sleep, the first time where I become lucid is in my REM sleep which is DILD. So having no delay between falling asleep and having lucid dream was just an illusion, every time that happens we just do not recall our nREM WILD, also if we do not recall nREM WILD - we do not remember Delta because you can say it is part of nREM WILD, the ending part.

That is not a bad thing, they are very different in their nature, nREM WILD and REM DILD. Depends what are you planning to do and what are you goals are, you can choose whether you want to have nREM WILD or not.

Thanks flowofmysoul.
This happens to me when I meditate. I don't know how to WILD and I can stay in this state for a long time. Anywhere from a few minutes to about a half hour. Sometimes I AT to a designated place, but over the last 10 years I learned that I prefer this "Delta" stage. I use a lot of color inagry during meditation, so I usually get sucked into a vortex of color that is a lot like the colors of the Omega nebula. But the feeling and enlightened awe is very much like what is being described in this thread.
Normally I meditate before bed, however I wake up anywhere from 2 to 6 times a night. Most of the time I actually get up and putz around the house or smoke a cigarette etc. Maybe I have some kind of sleep disorder.

Originally Posted by kadie

Thanks flowofmysoul.
This happens to me when I meditate. I don't know how to WILD and I can stay in this state for a long time. Anywhere from a few minutes to about a half hour. Sometimes I AT to a designated place, but over the last 10 years I learned that I prefer this "Delta" stage. I use a lot of color inagry during meditation, so I usually get sucked into a vortex of color that is a lot like the colors of the Omega nebula. But the feeling and enlightened awe is very much like what is being described in this thread.
Normally I meditate before bed, however I wake up anywhere from 2 to 6 times a night. Most of the time I actually get up and putz around the house or smoke a cigarette etc. Maybe I have some kind of sleep disorder.

I wake up every night many times, but just for a second, to think of what I just dreamt of and repeat it in my head to improve chances of recalling it in the morning. I can't even call those wake up's, just short periods of being almost waken up. As soon as I close my eyes my dream continues, but those are during REM DILD's.
I think that is normal for every Lucid Dreamer to wake up, at the moment I think it is important to wake up because you can improve your recall. I don't have DJ's, I usually post on web only the most interesting dreams and I do not write anything at night, I am keeping them in my head.

As for the Delta Sleep, as for my experience and knowledge, there are no dreams in Delta Sleep. There are nREM dreams before the Delta stage and they are nREM WILD's, but as soon as I come to Delta stage I experience nothing, just emptiness, no audio, no visuals, no senses. It lasts for a very short time, then I come to a point where I can't recall anything, the next thing I see after the Delta stage is a REM DILD Lucid Dream. According to my feelings and also EEG graphs that I found on internet, there is a delay between Delta and REM DILD, this exact delay I never recalled in my life, it is always a blank spot for me, but I recall the Delta which is always emptiness for me.

Hey! Great topic, still reading it. And I have a question. Can you speak during delta? Or are there any manifestations of language during delta?

^^ Hmm. Now there is something I honestly never thought about, but it is an interesting question.

If you are asking if during Delta LD's you can use verbal communication, either spoken or thought, then I think the answer is yes, you can.

Since you can (and likely will) think in words and sentences to some degree, especially at the beginning of the dream, when you are still slightly attached, through your still active memory, to your physical self and its basic means of communication. Delta dreams certainly have room for your conscious verbal input, and Delta dreams have a strong intellectual aspect (thoughts seem to form more easily than images), so you ought to be able to speak "out loud" during a Delta or NREM LD. So yes, there can be manifestations of language, just as there can be manifestations of pretty much anything else. And yet:

In retrospect, personally I never gave speech much attention or even thought during my dives into Delta. I guess it was because in my case I had no interest in talking to anyone -- not even myself. I was much more interested in the opportunity Delta offers to move past mundane means of communication or observation like speech. Now that I think about it, I probably did talk to myself early on, saying things like "this is totally not a normal dream," or "This is cool," and I do have a memory of hearing myself say these things out loud (aka, manifesting language)... but that was it. After some time exploring the potential of schemata-free dreaming, I began to lean much more on a sort of metaphoric exchange with my environment, and speaking just didn't fit into the formula.

tl;dr: From my perspective, the answers to your questions are yes, and yes.


Can I ask why you asked this fairly unique question? It wasn't a trick question, was it?

It was an intuitive question I think.

I'm interested in science and philosophy and there are always models of different things and processes in my head. They are emerging, changing and dying. Living their own lives without my conscious involvement
One of my greatest interests is philosophy of language which began to me from Wittgenstein. Since I knew him I often think about relation of language and inner experience or language and world. Which is pretty much the same for me now.
There is an analogy in my mind between delta/REM and unconscious childhood/conscious life. In both cases there is a line beyond which lies "dark ages": you don't remember your early childhood and you don't remember how this dream started (if DILD). And i thought that if you don't talk much when you are a child (of age 2 or so) then maybe you will unable or at least hard to speak in delta dream.
But it appears that analogy doesn't fully work. Maybe it's time to think different way.

I sometimes fall asleep and have these dreams right away that feel like a conscious stream of thought, and like I'm not really sleeping, but I am. And sometimes there will be visuals (I am prone to hypnagogic images, so maybe an extension of this?). For instance, I'll see the images of a video game I'm playing, and have a conscious stream of though planning what I'm doing in the video game the whole time. But it's not like I'm in a dream world. I still feel very much in my body, just viewing these images from behind my eyelids similar to my hypnagogic images. I always felt like this was just dreaming in Stage 1 sleep.

Is this delta sleep, or another stage of sleep? It feels different from my REM sleep dreams.

^^ It does sound like Delta dreaming to me, Lumiina!

Delta dreaming does seem to be more about your own conscious thoughts and imagery than the input of unconscious thoughts and imagery (aka, normal dreaming). I would also imagine that HI can appear in any stage of sleep, so those visuals could have been HI, especially if you are prone to it.

Also, I think you were right in thinking that it "always felt like this was just dreaming in Stage 1 sleep," because that is probably just what it was. I think if I had these sorts of dreams, I would start doing WILDs at bedtime to take lucid advantage of this dreaming opportunity you've been given... your mind has cracked open the door to Delta; might a well use your lucidity to push it open some more and do some exploring, right?

Hmm... Maybe it's time I look into doing WILDs. I have had some, but all were accidental and brief. I'm used to jerking myself out of them because the auditory hallucinations scare me.

I could use my HIs as a doorway too. They are usually very gruesome and frightening because of my OCD. But if I can learn to conquer those, my sleep issues would be solved. I did the same for my false awakenings, and I no longer dread dreaming. I love it. I haven't felt afraid in a dream in such a long time. It's just those HIs I have a problem with. My grandmother had the same issue with HIs and learned how to change them into pleasant things (which I haven't learned yet). But I heard they can be gateways into lucid dreams too, which would be even better. Because that's basically what I did with my false awakenings.

I think I'm going to look into the WILD course. It could be really beneficial for me. I just wish the course had workbooks! I really enjoyed the Intro course workbooks.

I am also practicing full language immersion at the moment with Japanese, and want to pull it in with my dreaming. So maybe I can blog about my experience in Japanese in place of the workbooks, then come back to the forums on my English days to get new exercises, post my experience with WILDs, get feedback and so on. My long term goal has been to find the connection between the subconscious and language through lucid dreaming. So I really want to get serious about this.

Hi guys, that's a very interesting topic indeed. Quite long living as well

As Sageous mentioned in the beginning of the thread, I am also trying to enter the dreamland directly from the start. I am trying that for more than 20y already. Is kinda strange experience. I am not sure if is Delta or not but for quite some time my night are developing as follows. First i relax my body and find the most comfy position on my bed, usually lying on my back. Then close my eyes and start some breathing and imagining technique, like breathing energy through crown chakra, driving it to tan tien and then distributing it to the rest of the body. Also stopping the conscious process of thought. This kinda changes the state of mind quite abruptly. It feels like a audible click and sometimes as electric shock. During that period body is vibrating with power and after a short while body is no more only the power. Then i have no feeling of my surroundings as well. There are some weird voices in languages which most of times i don't understand but sometimes i do. Can be quite scary sometimes but i learned not to pay much attention, just listen patiently. Similar story and with visions. Then comes something like a void. Kinda dark but calm place and some thoughts are present and deep. A bit like on a small MJ dose. One can go really deep on certain thoughts. Or just be there and recharge. All this usually lasts between 40 min and an hour. Then i usually prefer to come back, open my eyes and roll on the right and then continue with 'normal' sleep
I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

Interesting stuff, Kenietz; thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by kenietz

I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

Aside from dust motes in my eyes upon waking that can look like things floating in the room, and to which you are probably not referring, this has never happened to me. My wife, however, often awakens to imagery like this (and even more complex stuff sometimes); imagery that she insists is real for at least a few minutes. She does not practice any sort of Delta sleep exploration, though she does enjoy a lot of dream activity immediately upon falling asleep (probably thanks to a bit of narcolepsy) .

In any case, though, I have a feeling that this stuff has nothing to do with your Delta explorations, if that is what you were implying. It probably has more to do with your conscious mind entering the waking world a few seconds before the rest of you, and some residual imagery might be lingering in your perception even after you've begun to perceive reality -- a little psychic feedback, as it were, and nothing more.

Originally Posted by kenietz

I have one question about experiences which are bothering me for a while and which were usually happening after i wake up from a dream. But now they started to happen even after that period i described earlier. Is weird for me coz i know that that state of mind is different than my usual sleep mode. Anyhow. So when i open my eyes after that period i see things in the dark. Some floating entities. Usually reminding of a mesh of threads but constantly moving and morphing. But sometimes some strange shapes. Anyone had any of those?

It happens if you slowly and naturally wake up at night, it is dark in your room, no loud sounds, you did not wake up completely. What you see are dream fragments mixing up with your waking world. You are waking up and you can see your room, you are still partially sleeping and some dream imagery goes through, I know its a weird feeling. Actually the same mechanism is behind sleep paralysis, but in this case there is no paralysis. Next time when you start seeing those figures, remember those are dream fragments, you can try to control them if you want, the same way you control dreams.

So i can observe them for couple of mins or so but i am not sure they are dream residues. They seem not to be connected to my visions during sleep or presleep state of mind as described in my previous post. On the other hand i tried to interact with them and i found there is not much i can do to them. Usually my arms pass through them. However only once i felt an impulse to put one of them onto my third eye and that produced a weird flash and vision in my mind which unfortunately i cant remember.

^^ You lost me, Kenietz. Were the phenomena you described a result of your Delta sleep practice, or did they happen at other times as well? I was under the impression they occurred later on/after regular REM dreams, mostly because we don't tend to physically wake up during Delta, but maybe I misunderstood.

In any case, I obviously cannot know for sure, but I don't think your Delta work would be responsible for the imagery you describe, so you probably don't need to worry about that aspect, at least.

I am sorry for the confusion.
Usually it was happening after i wake up from my regular dreams, like 3-4 times per night. But as of lately it started to happen and after the initial Delta ( or meditation ) state.

Btw, Sageous, I would like to ask you about the initial stage of going to sleep and hunt for Delta. How could you describe the feeling of it? For me is quite fast, feels like a sudden dive within and knowing the state of mind is different already. Difficult to explain

Originally Posted by kenietz

Btw, Sageous, I would like to ask you about the initial stage of going to sleep and hunt for Delta. How could you describe the feeling of it? For me is quite fast, feels like a sudden dive within and knowing the state of mind is different already. Difficult to explain

I hope you don't mind, but in the interest of saving myself some time, I have simply cut and pasted below a couple of early posts from this thread (#'s 5 & 8) that seem to answer your question. I hope they are adequate.

Beyond that, I have personally found that there is no actual "hunt" for Delta. It will come, without fail, whether or not you are aware of its arrival. The hunt itself lies in maintaining self-awareness during the early states of sleep when your body has no interest in having you do so. I figure you were just using the word "hunt" as a general term, but I felt a need to respond for some reason.

And yes, the transition to Delta for me is very fast (or seems so, at least), to a point where I am in it before I realize that my body has even fallen asleep.



On the general feeling (the pause):

Originally Posted by Sageous

Originally Posted by gab: ...So how can I tell I'm in delta?

Good question! I'm guessing the answer to that is different for each person who consciously experiences the state. Was that a dodge? How about this, then:

If you are familiar with WILD, you will know that there is a "pause," a brief moment of absolute stillness, in between the last vestiges of waking life and the first of dreaming life. If you're doing WILD correctly (including making your attempt in the morning after several hours of sleep), that pause is extremely short, though you likely have experienced it. You may have ignored it, failed to notice it, or noticed it and just didn't care, simply waiting for it to pass in anticipation of things to come; but you likely experienced it.

At night, when you first go to sleep, that pause can be very long, and, if you are able to pay enough attention to it (which I highly recommend, of course), you'll find it is less empty than it seems at first glance: thoughts still stream, but far more slowly and palely than you're used to, and if you listen carefully, you might hear sounds or voices that always stay just out of range (or not; that last bit could just be me). Or you might experience something else altogether; but when your self-awareness enters delta intact, you will recognize the pause for what it is.

I believe that if you are able maintain self-awareness through the entire initial delta period, you will know that you are there, and there will be no confusion with HI or other pre-REM phenomena. Also keep in mind that it is possible to dream that you are in delta, but once you experience the real thing, you will be able to tell the difference.

That may sound vague, but as I said, I'm guessing that the answer to your question is truly different for each person who consciously experiences the state... the pause, however, should be the marker shared by all.

Some specific experiences:

Originally Posted by Sageous

Originally Posted by DragonMaster21: What are some of your past experiences in delta sleep?

Let me give you three examples in the distinct categories into which they seem to fall (you or others here may find yourself familiar with some of this stuff, I think):

First, there is a state I've often been in, during that long wait for REM, where I am alone in darkness, bodiless, yet with fading but still distant awareness of my physical form. Almost invariably in that state I will hear voices having quiet conversations -- voices I hear quite clearly, but I can never make out the words. At first this drove me nuts, but in time it offered me sort of an odd comfort (it may be the only noise I welcome during normal WILD dives).

Next, another thing that regularly happens is a subtle shift to the thoughts that normally (even in dreams) flutter chaotically about my head like a thick swarm of tireless, annoying butterflies. In delta, thoughts are reduced to just a few, and seem to slow down and stretch out, becoming strangely tangible, as if entities unto themselves. It's difficult to describe, but I guess the best way to try is to say that perhaps these thoughts are the little brothers to the thoughts that become "reality" in dreams. Now the ironic bit: Clear and slow-moving as these thoughts may be, I can to this day remember absolutely no specifics about any of them -- as if they never happened... yet I can still feel their pressure and presence; as if their energy were more significant than their content.

Then there are the rarer bits: On several occasions I held onto my self-awareness long enough to successfully do something during the pause. At first I tried the things I wanted to do in my dreams, like construct the places or situations I wanted to visit, but I quickly found that wasn’t happening -- each attempt left me with either more “nothing” or a loss of self-awareness and surrender to normal sleep and dream (though DILD usually followed, eventually). So, taking the hint from those quiet voices and tangible yet unheard thoughts, I decided to be subtle. Initially, I summoned geometric shapes in primary colors with some success, and even managed to visit a few strange places, though those places were always very dim, very gray, and oddly immersed in the wind of my body’s distant breath (I never did figure that one out!). More occurred, some of it certainly fun and novel, but suffice it to say that image-making in this state is a limited process indeed, perhaps due to the disconnect with the physical mechanisms that create dreams during REM. Oh, and pretty much all of my perceived OBE experiences started from this state -- I never thought much of that, but it might be worth mentioning here..

Beyond these clear (ha, ha) examples are the precious few transcendental moments when I could command my self-awareness with enough gusto to try the big stuff -- like taking a metaphoric dive into the ocean of my unconscious to see how deep I could go, what or with whom I might be swimming with, and whether I could pour that ocean into a spiritual cup and take it home with me. Those were amazing dives, but I have trouble describing them both because my memory of where I went is fraught with things I cannot describe even to myself, much less others, and because I cannot honestly say whether these things truly happened during delta, or were perhaps given to me later in REM -- It’s all too vague, but suffice it to say that some very excellent stuff was initiated by my interest and conscious presence in delta.

After reading through this thread, it seems I've consciously experienced this Delta dreaming many times. I was under the impression that it was some kind of alternate or distorted form of dreaming, or some kind of pre-dreaming state, in which my thoughts took on a totally unique type of activity that is rather hard to describe but matches the descriptions given here almost perfectly. Thanks for the information guys!