Thread: Is dreaming a product of the brain or are we in in an alternate reality?

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

I think we get confused when we say this world is a dream. To me when I say this world is a dream, I simply mean that this world, like a dream is influenced by thoughts but on a much lesser degree. This world by all means is a real place since it can be experienced. The only real illusion is solidity, this world is not solid. This world is made up of some sort of energetic information that our brain interprets then it outputs the perception to our conscious mind. It is not far fetched to conclude that dreams are also made of this energetic information that our mind interprets as a real thing. The only difference is that in a dream this energetic information can be altered to a much higher degree compared to waking life,which will then change how our mind interprets the dreamscape around us. Remember, we alter the waking world with our thoughts too, its just not as noticeable compared to a dream.

You are saying that the whole world around you is just a perception of your mind, which if that was true why would you want or need to tell other people? I've thought that same kind of idea that you just stated many times, but I've never told anyone because of this very real and clear hole in the logic.

Originally Posted by Extremador

Wait can you not see that I embedded the video onto the page? If not, the link: Holographic Universe (Part 1 of 5 ) its all illusion. - YouTube

Yeah, sorry about that ... I was on an IPad at the time, and it chose not to include the video. Now that I'm on my "real" computer, I see it is right there, and did indeed watch it.

And, having watched it, I'm really at a loss as to where your epiphany was formed. To say that since the mechanisms of perception take place inside your brain, then therefore the entire universe actually exists inside your brain -- and nowhere else -- seems patently absurd to me, and a woeful misinterpretation of anything scientific ... not to mention that even the video failed to explain where the "source" information comes from, and why it isn't real.

In the same sense, that would mean that a camera is creating reality as well, because it is sending electric signals from its lens to a memory chip. Do cameras create reality? And to say that you are being deceived that you are sitting in a room because your brain is seeing electrical impulses to perceive that room is, well, just silly to me. Your eyes and vision centers are tools for awareness, not awareness factories. Do blind people have no existence? Oh, and all (also woefully misinterpreted) Zen koans aside, if you disconnect your ears so they can't perceive a bird's chirping, that bird is still chirping. Or do deaf people also negate reality as well? Maybe "handicap" is the wrong term, given the immense power this assumes!

I think that to elevate a tool -- yes, a highly complex tool, but still a tool -- used to successfully navigate physical (and dreaming) reality to a level of creator, just because your brain is encased in a dark place, is disingenuous on a lot of levels; not the least of which being that it insults the spiritual complexity of the whole concept of living in a dream (aka, a world mentally created by us or someone else) reality.

At least that's what I think.

Sorry for the harshness, but seriously: What am I missing here?

Originally Posted by Sageous

What am I missing here?

I think you're reading too much into his post. He said "Anything you can see, smell, touch or taste is the result of your brain interpreting the original source into electrical signals." Certainly this is true. Moreover its an important realization. He then went on to brainstorm about the implications, and asked for our input.

I encountered that thought and the corresponding experience in my early 20's, and immediately drew the conclusion that the that the 'objective' world must be some kind of projection. Then I decided its not, now I think it is again, sort of. All of this seems to me to be a natural and unavoidable part of becoming more self aware. The 'holy shit, I'm dreaming even when I'm awake' experience is real. You, then me, then daredevilpwn all qualified it in about the same way, but it doesn't make the initial insight less compelling.

Originally Posted by TheGritz

You are saying that the whole world around you is just a perception of your mind

He's not saying that. He's saying that his experience of it is a perception in his mind, which is indisputable. He's also implying that he has some power to alter what he perceives. This is again indisputable in relation to control of his own body. I think there's more to it than that, and I guess he does also. But he's not suggesting that the world is a fantasy and other people are figments of his imagination.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I think you're reading too much into his post. He said "Anything you can see, smell, touch or taste is the result of your brain interpreting the original source into electrical signals." Certainly this is true. Moreover its an important realization. He then went on to brainstorm about the implications, and asked for our input.

I encountered that thought and the corresponding experience in my early 20's, and immediately drew the conclusion that the that the 'objective' world must be some kind of projection. Then I decided its not, now I think it is again, sort of. All of this seems to me to be a natural and unavoidable part of becoming more self aware. The 'holy shit, I'm dreaming even when I'm awake' experience is real. You, then me, then daredevilpwn all qualified it in about the same way, but it doesn't make the initial insight less compelling.

I suppose I could be reading too much into his post, but I guess I was commenting more about the posted video than I was Extremador's statements themselves. You are correct in that I shouldn't cast aspersions on the "aha" moment of 'holy shit, I'm dreaming even when I'm awake' itself, regardless of its source, because that moment is indeed a true seed for future self-awareness development.

Still. I couldn't let my opinion of that video (and my question about the nature of the "source") just slide. Maybe I had a flashback to the crap I fell for after my earliest "aha!" moments (Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts comes most embarrassingly to mind, though Richard Bach's Illusions is right behind it), and I wanted to save Extremador some time. Arrogant of me in the best light, I suppose. Story of my life.

Still...

The epipany I had wasn't related to that video at all— I had posted it a few weeks back.

Yeah, they don't talk about where the source material comes from, which kind of sucks. I guess it connects to the point where all the matter in the entire universe was once as small as a pea, so we are all a part of the universe and everything.

Actually... wow. I was walking into the kitchen today and I had a slight realization that I was in fact dreaming. The moment felt so surreal. I also used to experience this a lot when I'd be at clubs...

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Just watched a documentary called 'Quantum Activist' with Amit Goswami. It basically explains in very clear terms how all of this works and directly answers the question of the OP.

Its mental impact also made me nauseous at certain points. My worldview is changing because of this film, no joke. Everyone should watch this...

I'll need to see this some time.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

He's not saying that. He's saying that his experience of it is a perception in his mind, which is indisputable. He's also implying that he has some power to alter what he perceives. This is again indisputable in relation to control of his own body. I think there's more to it than that, and I guess he does also. But he's not suggesting that the world is a fantasy and other people are figments of his imagination.

Thanks, you saved me some time of replying.

I just read a passage from Brian Greene’s The Hidden Reality that I felt ought to be mentioned on this thread.

Greene had spent much of his book explaining the possibilities of multiverses, string theory, etc, when suddenly he went a bit pie-eyed and wondered if we could one day have the technology to create our own universes. He surmised that, based on inflationary cosmology, since our universe was created from essentially ten grams of material and enormous pressure, one day we may have the technology to produce the currently impossible amount of energy needed to compress that mass to the density needed to create a universe, we could. But that universe would immediately exist outside our ability to observe it, so what’s the point?

Then Greene got to thinking: what about creating a universe inside a computer, a la the Matrix or anything Phlilip K. Dick ever wrote? Right now, that would require a computer about the size of earth, but what about in a thousand years? Who knows? We might all be sentient programs (superSims?) navigating a program that some guy in the 35th century flipped on last week because he had a certain nostalgia for the 21rst century!

And, were it a given that we’re all programs, that moon really would be gone when we are no longer paying attention. In other words, all the stuff you guys are saying about perceived reality, consensus reality, etc, would all be able to work quite nicely. Of course, that would make us all computer programs.

Okay, this is turning into a “tl;dr,” and I’m doing a very bad job paraphrasing Greene. All I really wanted to do was mention that not only might an alternate reality exist during dreams, those dreams themselves might be part of an overriding artificial reality.

So if you get an opportunity, consider reading Greene’s book, so then what I just wrote might make sense.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I just read a passage from Brian Greene’s The Hidden Reality that I felt ought to be mentioned on this thread.

Greene had spent much of his book explaining the possibilities of multiverses, string theory, etc, when suddenly he went a bit pie-eyed and wondered if we could one day have the technology to create our own universes. He surmised that, based on inflationary cosmology, since our universe was created from essentially ten grams of material and enormous pressure, one day we may have the technology to produce the currently impossible amount of energy needed to compress that mass to the density needed to create a universe, we could. But that universe would immediately exist outside our ability to observe it, so what’s the point?

Then Greene got to thinking: what about creating a universe inside a computer, a la the Matrix or anything Phlilip K. Dick ever wrote? Right now, that would require a computer about the size of earth, but what about in a thousand years? Who knows? We might all be sentient programs (superSims?) navigating a program that some guy in the 35th century flipped on last week because he had a certain nostalgia for the 21rst century!

And, were it a given that we’re all programs, that moon really would be gone when we are no longer paying attention. In other words, all the stuff you guys are saying about perceived reality, consensus reality, etc, would all be able to work quite nicely. Of course, that would make us all computer programs.

Okay, this is turning into a “tl;dr,” and I’m doing a very bad job paraphrasing Greene. All I really wanted to do was mention that not only might an alternate reality exist during dreams, those dreams themselves might be part of an overriding artificial reality.

So if you get an opportunity, consider reading Greene’s book, so then what I just wrote might make sense.

Funny that you mention all this because I just read an excellent Sci Fi book called "the void trilogy", it happens to be set in the 35th century where half of the human population has uploaded their personality to one huge sentient computer, in this computer they have extended abilities like increased awareness etc. The first species ever to inhabit the galaxy decided to create another sub galaxy inside the old one that contained very different laws, it was named the void. It contained many dimensions used for reseting the void so that anyone could live how they wanted. A certain group of people hijack the sentient program in which many people live and fuse it with the void, they have the ability to directly adjust the voids operating structure. It just so happens that the void is powered by eating up the resto of the galaxy.

Not that any of that was really relevant but it shared a scary amount of coincedences to your post and it got me thinking alot about alternate reality.

Sounds like an interesting read, and also ties right into Greene's book.

I think Roger Zelazny also wrote an excellent version of this stuff in the first three books of his Amber series ... if you haven't already, you might want to check them out.

My favorite image from all this is the "Galaxies as some kids marbles" scene at the end of the original Men In Black movie ... sort of says it all.

Originally Posted by TheGritz

You are saying that the whole world around you is just a perception of your mind, which if that was true why would you want or need to tell other people? I've thought that same kind of idea that you just stated many times, but I've never told anyone because of this very real and clear hole in the logic.

The way that I currently like to think of reality is... well, think of it like a massive shared dream, where each individual has an equal role in its creation. If this were the case, then consensus reality would be a democracy in the strongest sense of the word. However, I feel it's a bit more complicated than that. Personally, I believe that each person has power over reality to the extent of their conscious will. That means very strong-willed people affect reality more than the average person... to an extent. Of course, if 99.999% of the world has a firm belief in say, gravity, you won't be able to overcome that on your own. It's just not possible.

Each of us also expends different amounts of will on different things according to our interests. I, for example, happen to care a good deal about video games and dreams, and don't give a damn about the politics that have been going on recently. Why do things like gravity seem so stable, then? I believe that deep-rooted expectations are actually a very strong, though subconscious, force of will. "Wanting" something is weak by comparison, and most people lack the conviction to literally "will" something to happen. It seems even more obvious when you consider that our own dreams just love to cater to expectations, and that "expecting" something different behind that door or around the corner is a commonly-shared dream control tactic. I can't speak for Daredevilpwn, but that's why I would love to share this with more people. We need more people to broaden their perspectives in order to loosen the grip on reality just a bit... we can't do it alone.

I could go on and on, really, but I have just two more points I want to say. The first is that the less shared a section of reality is, the more we can change it to our will. This is why dreams, our thoughts, feelings, and our imagination are relatively easy to control - by and large, they are an individual experience, and others' beliefs don't get in our way. It's still a long long road to strengthening our will, though... I can't even control a lucid dream fully, and most here seem to say the same. Heck, I can't even keep my thoughts on track for more than a few minutes. I'm not sure we'll ever achieve full control of even our own minds, but I think I'm okay with that. As we said earlier, the non-lucid dreams seem to be the more interesting ones.

The last thing I wanted to say is that I've heard many theories that say that all of reality is comprised purely of consciousness. The experience of mass and matter is an illusion given by a certain quality of that consciousness in the world. Inherent in this is the idea that even the rocks around us are composed of some form of consciousness (though clearly not self-aware or particularly useful). Still, it's interesting to wonder if the world itself, being consciousness, might also resist some of the things people try to impose with their will...

It also seems like consciousness doesn't seem to follow laws of conservation of... anything, really. I have heard stories from a friend that seem very peculiar to me... he has had experiences in his own variation of the idea of a dreamscape, and in many cases he has met characters that he designed for fun some time earlier. It's hard to say whether he drew inspiration from this plane unknowingly, or actually created these beings. One thing is for sure, though: I have never heard a story of something being willed out of existence. And I believe this is because the belief in our own existence is the strongest one we have. No amount of people who insist that we don't exist will cause us to vanish in a puff of logic. And even by believing we don't exist, someone else is, in a way, affirming our existence anyway. It's like asking someone not to think of pink elephants.

...okay. Done rambling this time, I promise.

An article said dream are signpost telling you of things to come. So does this mean all my bad dream may come true? i don't think so because all my good dreams didn't came true too.

I think many of you have had really interesting points =) And I am glad that people are opening up to the possibility. It's also interesting to see how advanced the human race is when it comes to technology, but more blind when it comes to the power of our consciousness. In the beggining everything will sound like a new age crap, like god, the power of love, astral projection lol even crystals.
But when you realize that science is actually going in the very same spiritual direction, that everything is connected like some of you have had said, well then it's not so hard to realize that you are both right. Our dreams are our subconscious, memories and emotions. But it doesn't mean it's not experienced by something much greater - our consciousness. - And it can be expanded.

The full thread where I share the video that made me realize that science and spirituality is almost the exacty same thing can be found here: http://www.dreamviews.com/f96/new-ag...onally-136450/

Some of you might need experience to understand, but hey don't shut it out because of that, think about what would happen if you were too skeptical to lucid dreaming as well!
But experience is of course crucial to gain the empirical KNOWLEDGE but just opening the mind can give you INSIGHTS and also just the awesome feeling of FULL PICTURE UNDERSTANDING.

The information above is just important for your view on science and spirituality generally, but back to topic:

Shared dreaming is possible, we are in a sense doing it right now. All our minds are connected in the world we have to stop going to Duality (Male-Female) (Black, White) (Evil, Bad) (God, Satan) and go towards Unity because we are all one, (LOL even Lion King teaches that!)
everything branches from one, what people probably would call God but it is a well starting point to the whole physical existence.
For example we can easily see the blueprint of everything in creation just by looking at nature. For example the fingers on your hands follows the fibonacci sequence or if you meassure the tip from your nose to the tip of your chin it will probably be 7,23 cm. Try it =) http://www.goldennumber.net/human-hand-foot/
There is also a coral that is conscious in itself, but then there are branches from it that have buds that also are conscious by themselves, but they are all connected to the same source. I like to believe that we humans functions the same way, our consciousness is branching from the same source. Bad explanation from my side, but it's all in the video!

But if you don't have time to free your mind in 4 hours, this video might be enough until you change your mind

Spirit Science XVII ~ Universal Geometry - YouTube

Love to you all =)

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

That question seems impossible to answer. It's just like the question "which comes first the chicken or the egg" Although it is interesting to think about but how would we truly know which comes first. For all we know it could be both.

2nd law of thermodynamics imply that the egg came first because it has less entropy. But how can the first egg be produced and hatch into a chick without male and female genes? Truly a mystery.

For your OP:

It was certainly very interesting to read but I cannot agree with you for the most parts. For example, you said that when we dream we enter a world of higher vibration. From where are we drawing the extra energy required to do this? If you consider individual atoms, they are in the ground state and will only be promoted to higher energy levels if they absorb enough energy.

Also, I think a much more likely explanation for the vibrations we experience when dreaming are the result of natural, involuntary muscle reflexes responding to the changes the central nervous system is imposing on the body (preventing motor neurons from passing electrochemical signals to another).

In essence it is very difficult to look at this question from a scientific perspective. It is almost impossible to run an empirical test that would yield such precise results to draw plausible conclusions. It'll be more of a disprove one to prove another thing.

Originally Posted by LightofHeaven

you said that when we dream we enter a world of higher vibration. From where are we drawing the extra energy required to do this? If you consider individual atoms, they are in the ground state and will only be promoted to higher energy levels if they absorb enough energy.

According to a critic my sister encountered in a dream, astral matter differs from ordinary matter in a way that's more akin to a difference in reactivity.

In any case, if there is such thing as astral matter, then astral projection involves separating the astral and physical bodies, which doesn't necessarily imply any changes to the physical body. Energy could be shifted from one part or aspect of the astral environment to another though.

Dmt is a chemical in your brain it makes u dream, but it's also released when ur born and when u die so my thing is if there's life after death dmt has gotta be the secret or the key. Dmt- ushers us into life and shows us how to leave it. But who really knows not like it matters... Once ur dead you will be fucking dead forever.
So believe w/e the hell u want

Alright so I watched this entire workshop series (about 5 hours worth) about the nature of the Holographic Universe and now I believe even more that absolutely nothing exists or can remotely be expressed as "real."

I really really really really really x inifinity recommend you all watch this (even if you're a skeptic) series and report back. Holographic Universe Workshops

This is a quote from one of the parts, and I like to recite it sometimes.

What you are seeing right now — and every moment you are alive — without exception, is a holographic 3D total immersion movie written uniquely for you, downloaded to your brain, translated into the holograms you see, and projected "out there" for you to experience.

I'm inclined to think that dreams are a product of your subconscious because of the control you have over things and DCs.