Thread: I see a bunch of BS

I see a bunch of long rehashed tl;dr arguments of people who like to hear themselves talk.

skeptics on this forum are as ridiculous as atheists. you cannot prove God exists. you cannot prove god does not exist.

you state opinions as fact, and reject the fact that you are using fallacious arguments.

you base your premises on bullshit.

instead, base your premises on what grows on the bullshit.

check your premise, wise guy.

Well that's just how some people are im afraid, i think the best thing is to be open minded but also being skeptical. It's also important to have a constructive discussion, but this has to come from both sides. It's not just this forum the world is full of it, it's how humans are. It's how it always will be sadly.. If they don't wanna see it from ur point of view, then don't even bother to reply cause you will get nowhere.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I see a bunch of long rehashed tl;dr arguments of people who like to hear themselves talk.

skeptics on this forum are as ridiculous as atheists. you cannot prove God exists. you cannot prove god does not exist.

you state opinions as fact, and reject the fact that you are using fallacious arguments.

you base your premises on bullshit.

instead, base your premises on what grows on the bullshit.

check your premise, wise guy.

*If* you post on this section of the forum, then you have to be prepared for the fact that there are skeptics and believers. That's fine; welcome to the harsh world.

If you are looking for a world where there are only believers, then I might recommend the "Deep Dreaming Team", which may be more geared to your liking.

I can't see the purpose of this thread, seeing as you're not referring to anything specific. It reminds me of those cryptic and indirect posts on facebook people make to vent about being dumped by their partners.

Anyway, you say people are using fallacious arguments and then use the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument which is pretty much the classic fallacy (the burden of proof lies on those that make the claim), instantly devaluing your own opinion. I don't wish to argue about religion; I'm just pointing out an issue with your post.

If you have a problem with the arguments skeptics are making, why don't you go ahead and point out the flaws in the threads themselves?

A thread complaining about BS by WakingNomad. Classic.

Like your gif lol ...but this isn't a joke. It's usually about people attacking someones beliefs> uses your gif back at you

Originally Posted by ♥Mark

A thread complaining about BS by WakingNomad. Classic.

Originally Posted by hathor28

this isn't a joke

That's why it's funny.

Originally Posted by ♥Mark

That's why it's funny.

people are going to believe whatever they want. it's a free country and open forum. the rules are very clear. It is a waste of energy to whine and complain. just do your thing. you have your friends and like minded people so just hang with them and leave the others alone.

Four likes on the opening post so far. I am missing something as I haven't got the tinniest clue what the theme of this thread is all about.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

Four likes on the opening post so far. I am missing something as I haven't got the tinniest clue what the theme of this thread is all about.

A few more posts and I still haven't got a clue as to what the purpose of this thread is.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

My disk is pinching my spinal cord. It hurts to type. This is why I barely post.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/how-he...-dream-127501/

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

you cannot prove God exists.

I'm still working on the electronic schematics for my Godometer.

WakingNomad:

I think you make a good point, at least in large part, and I understand why you would be bored with arguing with skeptics. I also think its reasonable for people to want to have 'skeptic free' threads, to avoid getting bogged down in the debate at every turn.

That said, not everybody has been over that ground before. And some skeptics are honest and intelligent, and do learn something from these discussions. Non-skeptics likewise.

Its stupid when 'intellectuals' dismiss the thoughts and experiences of 'non-intellectuals' as insufficiently sophisticated to be of value. Its at least as stupid when 'non-intellectuals' dismiss rigorous argument as worthless just because they don't do it themselves.

Many people here, myself included, value your experience and perspective. But if you just drop in once in a while to piss on other people for a few seconds, while rarely if ever engaging with them on the points you disagree with, that seems to me to have a lot in common with the other forms of posturing that you are criticizing. Respect is a two-way kind of thing.

I'll quote DreiHundert because I think he made a good point in the other thread.

Originally Posted by DreiHundert

As soon as I read this, I knew that you have absolutely no idea what a debate actually is. It is not a futile argument with big words like you think it is. It's about furthering our collective understanding of something. Whenever we have intellectual debates, people on both sides LEARN more. Without having debates, we only know what we want to know, and we believe anything that supports our opinions. Those "Big Words" make it easier for us to learn more from eachother in less time. We can say more, while saying less. We can explain in a sentence what would take a paragraph with a limited vocabulary. Those big words are not our POINTS... Grab a dictionary, understand the sentence, and you will understand our POINTS... You will understand that a debate goes beyond seeing who can sound the smartest.

WakingNomad:

I've only been here for a year, but I've witnessed a very odd progression on your part from a long-winded idea machine to a sporadic one-line narrow opinion processor. I have no idea what happened to you (I'm guessing it mattered a lot, though), but to see you get annoyed at open, wordy, debate is disconcerting at best.

I am by no means a skeptic, though I take the skeptic's position often, just in an attempt to draw the "why" of things from people who actually might know. But I do relish thoughtful conversation, as you once did. It is deeply confusing that you, one of the lights of advanced dreaming here, have taken umbrage with people who want to know more at all cost -- even if that cost is reading tl;dr's and perhaps accepting someone else's point of view. That you think conversations are complete by saying "This is true because I said so," or "This thing happened to me, so it must mean that shared dreaming is real," is troubling.

Aside from the shameful fact that you call posts you clearly did not read BS, I have to question your motives in actually starting a thread meant to do nothing more than whine about people saying things you don't want to hear about your favorite subject. That is just wrong, and from what little I know of you, WakingNomad, that is not how you once were.

So don't bitch: Contribute, pay attention, push your agenda, whatever -- just work to grow this thing that is lucid dreaming (and dream-sharing). Don't get angry because we're not all blindly parroting your "established" tenets.

And yes, Nomad, sometimes the truth requires "tl;dr" posts, because it simply covers that much ground. If you can't handle that, then just leave us be, and feel comforted by your own superiority.

Full disclosure: I wasn't going to post here at all, but, after reading several posts from very clever people, I realized that the thing being discussed wasn't your annoyance, Nomad, but discussion itself. This forum was not invented, I think, to provide unchallengeable "billboards" for self-proclaimed experts; it was invented to allow those experts to mix it up with other experts, until the truth comes out. Please don't try to screw with that, and, more important, don't walk away from discourse.

I got in a car accident.

My disk is pinching my spinal cord.

It hurts to type.

This is why I barely post.

***

I am a bigger skeptic than all of you. I doubt all but my personal experience.

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

***

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence. (Ad hominem attacks are also fallacious arguments.)

You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence.

As if some non-specific bitching thread qualifies as intelligence. If you've got a problem with someone's argument, post a response in the relevant thread. If it's a personal problem, take it up with the person in question. This is just juvenile.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I got in a car accident.

My disk is pinching my spinal cord.

It hurts to type.

This is why I barely post.

...

Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

And THIS logical fallacy is called an appeal to emotion.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

And THIS logical fallacy is called an appeal to emotion.

Actually he was responding directly to a concern I brought up, Mindraker ... no fallacy committed this time, unless I started it.

Dear Wolfwood

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

Indeed -- I'm simply saying to not take anyone's word on something if there is potential (and it's practical) to experience the claim first-hand. The 'reality' of the experience is irrelevant... who cares? If the experience gives you something positive to feel or witness, then that's all that matters.

(...)

By the way, I've absolutely no idea what the thread is specifically referring to. I'm merely responding to a general principle.

I think the thread is specifically referring to folk getting caught-up in fruitless philosophical speculation.

The opening post is this:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I see a bunch of long rehashed tl;dr arguments of people who like to hear themselves talk.

skeptics on this forum are as ridiculous as atheists. you cannot prove God exists. you cannot prove god does not exist.

you state opinions as fact, and reject the fact that you are using fallacious arguments.

you base your premises on bullshit.

instead, base your premises on what grows on the bullshit.

check your premise, wise guy.

Then the one who wrote the opening post replies to every one with this:

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

(...)

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

(..)

You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

So, Wolfwood

I see the this thread specifically refering to stop yapping and participate.

I see time dripping away. I see opportunities to prove the existance of god, (and so on and so forth) dying.

Originally Posted by debrajane

I see the this thread specifically refering to stop yapping and participate.

I see time dripping away. I see opportunities to prove the existance of god, (and so on and so forth) dying.

I think this gets towards another central part of the issue. Participate in what? Shared dreaming? I do that in some sense almost every night. Prove the existence of God to who? God, such as God may be, can easily prove his existence to anyone he wants to, if they're asking and ready.

I've never criticized your long posts of transcripts, I see nothing wrong with them. But do you seriously believe they're more useful than my "yapping" or anyone else's? Yes some people's posts aren't worth a lot, but that's because they don't put much time or thought into them, so they don't lose much either. If you think we're spending time here posting that we should spend doing something else, what is that other activity? We can't sleep all day. For myself, I'd rather be spending my time with my kids, but since I can't, for a couple more months at least, I'd rather pass my spare time talking about things that I care about than doing something else stupid like watching TV. So what is this other thing we should be doing besides discussion?

It seems what you're really getting at is you want us to join in projects you are involved with, and don't accept the choice of those who have declined. In other words, you want to control us, like in high school where people form clubs, elect officers, and try to get other people in their club. Here its the same, except the 'club' involves a particular style of shared dreaming.

I have never once tried to dissuade anyone from participating in any of your projects, or WakingNomad's. I'm not against these things, its just that they don't work for me, because of the way my muse works, which is something I value and want to preserve. Different strokes for different folks. I do sometimes give my opinion on activities that I consider unhealthy or dangerous, like use of narcotics, because I care about other people. But I have said nothing against projects like IOSDP. Can you not give us pompous intellectuals the same courtesy?

If you want to learn something from me, or teach me something, I'm open to that. In fact I think I have learned a little from you, and shared a dream in a mild way. That's what I'm into, learning and helping other people learn. I don't shared dream just for the sake of doing it, for me there has to be some growth purpose to it. I don't even think I can shared dream without that, its built into how it works for me. The skeptics aren't interested in being convinced, which is their prerogative, and we already know shared dreaming is real, so for me there's no trigger for it unless there's some spiritual growth question you have that connects somehow to what I think about. If that's the case, then I'm open.

Post 11

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I got in a car accident.

My disk is pinching my spinal cord.

It hurts to type.

This is why I barely post.

***

I am a bigger skeptic than all of you. I doubt all but my personal experience.

I see a bunch of people stating their opinions as fact. This is not being skeptical. This is not being experienced. Stating opinions as fact is called a fallacious argument.

***

I see your obnoxious thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, and raise you some fucking intelligence. (Ad hominem attacks are also fallacious arguments.)

You're running around in circles doing mental gymnastics wasting time on worthless semantics meanwhile you could be actually practicing inducing altered brainwave states.

WakingNomad has WORKED very hard since the 24th of August 2009 to introduce practical experiments. A recent one is this:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/hackin...g-life-125224/

Things like "Does God Exist" and so on and so forth might not be confirmed by endless talk, talk,talk but it will be confirmed by practical participation in WakingNomad type experiments.

Scientific proof (evidence for a hypothesis) is peer reviewed so that your fellows can point out errors in your method/conclusions etc.

It also needs to be repeatable by equally reputable scientific labs/institutions.

The above statements form vicious circle that put any real research into fringe phenomenon far beyond reach. No scientist is going to risk reputation and lively hood by revisiting flawed research mainly carried out in the paranoia of the cold war. Non repeatability seems also to be a hallmark of these fringe phenomenon.

So believers can relax. Investigate and test yourself. You can choose how to interpret your own experience but I wouldn't expect to run around with a banner and expect others to blindly believe you.

And skeptics should remember that it wasn't very long ago that lucid dreaming was also denounced as the product over active imaginations...

I would only add that the only break I can see might come in the next 20 years is the revolution in scanning and computer technologies combined with growing citizen scientist online movements. Imagine powerful 2025 nextgen phones with the ability to monitor brain activity, giant cloud storage and online collation you get to a point where enough people would be willing to settle these debates once and for all!

From this thread:

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

Scientific proof (evidence for a hypothesis) is peer reviewed so that your fellows can point out errors in your method/conclusions etc.

It also needs to be repeatable by equally reputable scientific labs/institutions.

The above statements form vicious circle that put any real research into fringe phenomenon far beyond reach. No scientist is going to risk reputation and lively hood by revisiting flawed research mainly carried out in the paranoia of the cold war. Non repeatability seems also to be a hallmark of these fringe phenomenon.

So believers can relax. Investigate and test yourself. You can choose how to interpret your own experience but I wouldn't expect to run around with a banner and expect others to blindly believe you.

And skeptics should remember that it wasn't very long ago that lucid dreaming was also denounced as the product over active imaginations...

I would only add that the only break I can see might come in the next 20 years is the revolution in scanning and computer technologies combined with growing citizen scientist online movements. Imagine powerful 2025 nextgen phones with the ability to monitor brain activity, giant cloud storage and online collation you get to a point where enough people would be willing to settle these debates once and for all!

From zilvis89's thread called "Seeing images with eyes closed"

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

Experiencing hypnogogic imagery around sleep is normal. The key skill is to lock into those images and use them to tease out a WILD or lucid when you enter REM.

I've had some very odd experiences where I will be in a day dreamy head space. Not realise I've closed my eyes for a second and still see my room. I'll look around for a while before coming to my senses and feeling my eye lids are closed. The interesting part is when my eyes flick open I'm blind for a few seconds, my sight returning like tunnel vision from the centre.

Obviously the brain has switched to the created inner mind generated view and shut off/suppressed the information from the optic nerve. Its always intrigued me as oracles and other seers are often depicted as blind. Also have a look at articles on Kudda Bux who could read newspapers with closed eyes.

This is great stuff CrossroadsGuide.

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

The Lucid Crossroads project is waking from its own slumber. Within 3 months the site will under go a complete transformation, art, articles and new media.

For those that don't know the Crossroads was set-up as a meeting point for all lucid dreamers. A hub of the dreamscape to deepen lucidity, steady yourself and with the help of the dream receptionists plan your forward journey.

I've placed this thread in Beyond Dreaming as the Crossroads is usually associated with shared dreaming. That being a part of why it was set up in the first place and I notice it is mostly mentioned in this forum. That said I would encourage all lucid dreamers to drop by dreamside its a real trip to visit and hang out there! Personally I'm a scientifically skeptical person I just happen to enjoy the exploration of the fringe.

As for the changes one of the most important changes is that the 3D model of the Lucid Crossroads will be made copy-left (this has been asked for many times in the past). This will mean that if you want your own versions of the dreamspace you can tweak it to your hearts content. You might want to use the free Blender software to render up some views with a fancy new supercar you've been wanting to take for a spin?

The website will be most condensed and media rich. There will be a Lucid Crossroads book and this will go into more expansive detail. All will be produced to the highest level I can reach (I'm an illustrator/artist). Support us at the Crossroads site or our Indiegogo page.

I will also update this thread with progress over the next few months!

The above is from your thread :

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/lucid-...7/#post1912799

I am not a lucid dreamer. I am a "Hipnagoger". I think there many spiecies of dreamer and many will never be frequent lucid dreamers.

Here is my thread:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/dream-...loaded-123389/

I have no participants but when it wakes-up (by participation) it will blow folks socks off. The sharks were not controlled by any human. The Rip It Up magazine cover and earth quake also was not caused by me or any one. I can understand folks being too "scardy-cat" to play but some day they will lose thier fear and give it a go.

Til then I will join in any dream-game on offer. But I have to use hipnagogs and hipnapops and common dreams and songs that I wake to because I am not a Lucid Dreamer.

Thanks for the appreciation debrajane, it will be a hard 3 months but worth it. The open source nature will mean you can add/tweak it how you want to suit your own shared dream goals.

Originally Posted by Crossroadsguide

Thanks for the appreciation debrajane, it will be a hard 3 months but worth it. The open source nature will mean you can add/tweak it how you want to suit your own shared dream goals.

Sometimes you can look around the room while in trance even if your eyes are closed and you're wearing an eye mask. (11:44 piont of 37 min L 101)

This is called the Transparent eyelids effect. And it's usefull because it gives you a reality check you can use to test for sure that you've entered a subconscious focus..

The transperent eyelids are a good reality check you can use to tell if you'ved tuned to the subconscious because you don't have to move to do the check.

Dear Crossroadsguide, that's from my copy of the original 2008, 37minute download I got from Nick Newport when he was active on his site Saltcube.

(12:16) The transparent eyelids effect works because when you are dreaming you can usually see things and it does'nt matter if your physical eyes are closed since you not focussed in your physical eyes.

You're focussed on your subconscious dream environment, which allows you to draw-in what ever sensory information you want from it, including sight.

You might not always get the transparent eyelids effect but if you do you can be sure you're in the subconscious. (12:40)