are dreams OBEs?

[Qwer]

some people say that dreams are OBEs. but i thought it was scientificaly proven that dreams are created by the brain?

[littlezoe]

It's the other way around. OBEs are dreams.

[Raspberry]

It's a matter of opinion, I think. Lucid dreams are when you are conscious in the dream, and that you know you're dreaming. OBE's are considered to be when you leave your body but go into the world as it is. It's up to you whether to believe in OBE's, or to believe that they are just lucid dreams. Personally I think they are LD's due to WILD and have been mistaken for something else.

[Qwer]

It's the other way around. OBEs are dreams. so your saying that OBEs dont exist? or that that is your opinion anyway?

[littlezoe]

so your saying that OBEs dont exist? or that that is your opinion anyway? They exist in people's minds, just like astral projection. But they are still just dreams.

[PureSoul]

some people say that dreams are OBEs. but i thought it was scientificaly proven that dreams are created by the brain? Hello, Actually its not scientifically proven from where dreams came. Even mind itself not discovered till today. Scientists have no clue of where our feelings come in brain or where conscious and subconscious is present. Scientists say that our brain is 80% Subconscious and 20% conscious. While our consciousness can only access 20% of our brain. Whereas when we sleep our mind comes to its full and uses consciousness and subconsciousness at its maximum means when we sleep our brain is 100% working. But the source of conscious and subconscious mind is not found till today from where they came is still a secret. If you look more in depth scientific study of brain you will find that what we know as physical world is nothing more then a imagination itself. We think our eyes see but in real our eyes do not see anything. Instead our eyes only pass light signal to our brain when this signal reaches inside brain. Brain forms an Image just like we visualize and in this image we see and feel ourself. On the other hand there is subconscious image but its not discovered from where subconscious light signal is coming and forming images in our mind these images composed of memories, thoughts, Visualization,imagination and finally Dreams full experience of subconscious mind just like we experience our conscious imagery known as physical world and capable of controlling our conscious mind. These subconscious signals are invisible and cannot be detected by any means. We see physical world in our brains and not outside as we think. But for subconscious its source is not found. (Conscious signal visible light 20% of mind) (Subconscious signal invisible light 80% of mind). From now on dreams are not in brain instead they are from invisible light, And physical world is from visible light and visible light is controlled by invisible light. To your next question are dreams same as OBEs from the Subconscious point of view yes they are same. But reason why i like OBEs more is that they can show you physical reality. I do not believe OBEs until i experimented on them myself. What happens mostly in Lucid dreams you realize you are dreaming or you will have a false awakening in lucid dream. Thats what my experience with Lucid dreams. Now When i did OBE which comes to me after so much meditation. I can induce OBE without falling asleep instantly whenever i want in first attempt. The difference i see in OBE is that when i want to induce OBE i lay down still for 10-15 min afterward i feel sleep paralysis coming then when my sleep paralysis take over my whole body i just close my physical eyes and sit up on my bed as i sit up i see as if i am physically sitting up but i know that my physical body is sleep and i am out in physical world present in Invisible light. In OBE from start to end i am more aware then i am in physical world the OBE world is more real then physical world. And another thing OBEs can show you the future of your physical reality in perfect detail. Hope this helps you.

[shadowofwind]

i thought it was scientificaly proven that dreams are created by the brain? That's a bit like saying its scientifically proven that computers run on rocks, because if you smack your computer with a rock it affects the way it runs. The brain is clearly involved with dreams, and in my opinion is probably essential to dreaming, but it doesn't follow that nothing else is going on also. As far as I have found, nobody has an understanding of what color is, or sound. A lot is known about light, and about vibrations traveling through air and other media, and about how the body senses these and maps them to color and sound, but after that its hand waving.

[shadowofwind]

Some questions.... the OBE world is more real then physical world. It is more vivid and incorporates other types of information. In what sense it is more real? physical world is from visible light and visible light is controlled by invisible light. In what sense is this invisible light like visible light, and in what sense (if any) is 'invisible light' a poorly fit metaphor for something else? By visible light I mean two different things, both the experience of light, and the electromagnetic stuff that interacts with the eyes. And another thing OBEs can show you the future of your physical reality in perfect detail. How do you distinguish among possible futures? How would you distinguish the past of a similar world from the future of our world? Seeing something in perfect detail seems to imply that its defined in perfect detail. Does defining the future in perfect detail limit your freedom, and if not, why not?

[Original Poster]

Let us all state with absolute certainty what dreams and OBEs are. And furthermore, what the brain is.

[PureSoul]

Hello shadowofwind, Thank you for asking Questions. To your first Question: To me OBE is more real not because its vivid because its shows future reality and another thing its real because when ever i do OBE body don,t do anything it lay still and flat like clothes on bed but when i return to body and fade into it my eyes automatically start to open whether i want to open or not this strange thing has to do something really out of body it happens always not just single time. If its all happening in brain then try to open your physical eyes when you come out of your body i recommend this to you. You can,t open your physical eyes instead your Soul eyes will open. But when you return to physical body open your eyes this time you can. To your second Question: By visible light means the signals in the form of waves and light that come into your brain. Your eyes don,t see anything they are just capable of passing signals of sight to your brain through rods and cones. When these signals come into brain they are formless then your brain manages these signal finally representing an image to you when this image forms then you see this image present inside brain and call it a physical reality. And we because of this we will never see what the actual reality is and how it looks we just receive signals of touch,hear,smell,Taste and sight. Your eyes are taking thousands of signals in a second and your brain is processing these signals into images thousand times faster. And these signals only come when your eyes blink. Now if u stop blinking your eyes for 10 min and keep them still then no more signals will come and u will see a black or white blank screen with your open eyes and u will be unable to see anything. When u blink your eyes u will be able to see again. In the same sense subconscious images come into brain from mind which we will able to see through mind`s eye just like conscious images come into brain through signals. Like this subconscious images come to your brain but these subconscious signals are undetectable and are invisible to physical eyes. But they work same as conscious signals. 1 screen we see in waking life known as physical screen. The other screen coming to us by means which are impossible to detect and we experience them just like physical world when we sleep. So these are basically two screens. But why subconscious screen is more powerful because it has all your memories and thoughts and ideas which make you consciousness to work properly without it u can do nothing. And the 6th sense which tells you about your future is the work of subconscious mind not conscious mind. Conscious mind benefit from subconscious mind. To your third Question: I am going to write my own experience why OBEs are more real. If u don,t believe me go ask any astral projector or OBEr they will tell you in OBE u can see Past, Present and future in fully correct detail. I also don,t believe these OBEs and astral projection until i myself pass through an amazing and strange experience that confirms me that they are real. Here is experience: 5 days ago i lay down on my back still after 10 to 20 min sleep paralysis came and my body fall asleep. Now i closed my eyes and sit up on my bed look carefully if the room is same yes its same its physical lets check what my brother is doing in his room then i walk and came inside my brother`s room by opening his door what i saw my brother was sitting on PC with full lights on in white cloths looking at me with little simile and i was talking to him. After my OBE completed i opened my eyes and checked if i see really in reality i came in my brother`s room after completing obe to check if he is really sitting on PC or not with full lights on. When i entered his room what i saw annoyed me he was in the mood of sleep and in blue and black pant shirt instead of white cloths. I laughed on myself and then i sleep. Next day at night i was going i came inside my brother`s rooms unintentionally and got a feeling as i saw this scene before and suddenly my experience of last night OBE come into my mind and i become amazed that he was sitting on PC with full lights on with same feeling and same mood and in same white clothes and in same posture and figure and smiling same as i saw him in OBE last night and looking at me with same style. From that day i registered here on DV to share my knowledge and to confirm that they are real as well as more vivid more clear sense of sight,touch ,taste ,smell and hear. Hopes this helps.

[shadowofwind]

Hello, thanks for your thoughts. Sorry my questions were a bit abrupt, partially that's just my manner, partially its because I'm also working at my office. The reason I ask about your experiences is not because I'm doubting that you are truly having them, but because everyone experiences these things a little bit differently. If someone else explains to me what they experience, I am often able to repeat that and expand my experience. I understood from your first post what you're saying about how when we 'see' we're reconstructing an image from signals. I was almost 30 before I realized that this is important, so you're way ahead of me there. I've been able to form images in my mind which I can see from several directions at once, which is different from images projected on a surface such as with usual eyesight. I also speculate that there is also a way to be aware of things that is direct, that is not being aware of a reconstructed image or model of it. I've had hundreds of accurate premonitions of the future while sleeping, and only one inaccurate one that I recall. But there are definitely limitations, which I am still trying to understand. Other people's astral and OBE experiences also have limitations, which they are aware of if they are willing to ask themselves those kinds of questions. I've had several experiences which suggest that I'm not exactly seeing "the future", that I'm seeing a parallel world that's a lot like our world but ahead of it, or something else that I don't know how to think about properly. My premonitions were not while 'out of body', but I've done that also, and I understand it to be essentially the same, with a difference in what I'm doing with my attention. Please take good care of yourself, all aspects of your life. Most people can't go out of body as easily as you, and a large portion of those who can develop serious mental health problems. I hope you stay away from drugs and alcohol too: they're bad for everyone, but worse for people who can do this sort of thing easily. Thanks again, I have to go.

[Qwer]

why would drugs be worse for people who can go out of body easily? i dont think drugs are bad for anyone.

[littlezoe]

why would drugs be worse for people who can go out of body easily? i dont think drugs are bad for anyone. Oh, so people who die because of drugs are just having fun and it's not bad for them... sure.

[Qwer]

Oh, so people who die because of drugs are just having fun and it's not bad for them... sure. you can die from anthing if you abuse it.

[shadowofwind]

why would drugs be worse for people who can go out of body easily? As PureSoul pointed out, the part of your mind that forms the OBE sights and sounds is the same part that normally forms sights and sounds from the information coming through your eyes and ears. The OBE is literally schizophrenia at the level of processing of sense information. If you can do this easily, this means that you can easily decouple your 'waking' experience from the objective, external world. When your interactions with that world become too stressful, due to the common challenges of life, or you start getting pulled on by influences in the 'internal' world that are stronger than your ability to keep your imagination in focus with the external world, you become insane. Now if you add drugs to that, it further weakens your control. The whole point of drugs is that they make your mind able to go places that it can't go under its own power: it is the cart pushing the horse. The drugs also damage your brain in irreversible ways, and if you're already dancing on the edge of a cliff, you don't have a lot of margin. i dont think drugs are bad for anyone. Well, its easy to see that drugs are very bad at least for some people, just from testimonies from a few of the very large number of people who have wrecked their lives with drugs. That doesn't prove that they're bad for everyone, but it falsifies your 'not bad for anyone' view, and thoroughly undermines your credibility on the subject. I'll go through a few common drugs and their effects: LSD - Fries your intellect while giving you an impression of great depth of understanding, without actually giving you depth of understanding. Anecdotal: My friend Jim was a math major, then he did LSD, then he couldn't do abstract math any more so he became a lawyer. Joel fried himself worse than that, and got stuck in boring, low-wage jobs for his life. I could go on with more examples. All of these people have 'knowledge' that they gained from using LSD, but the same knowledge can be gained just by thinking and meditation while strengthening the mind rather than tearing it down. DMT - Same comments apply. A clue here is the emotional ambivalence and moral indifference that is always present in the divine visions that the drugs inspire. It bends a person's sense of love, so that conditions that are objectively quite limited and painful are regarded as benevolent and expansive. Marijuana - Numbs your ability to clearly feel things of emotional consequence to you, and therefore to deal with them effectively. Also bad for your memory, bad for your work ethic, and bad for your lungs. If you must abuse a drug, this is a safe one. But the effects that you used it for eventually fade with time and use. Then what do you do? You go back to drugless existence, minus the time and mental assets that you lost, or you move on to something stronger and more dangerous. Pot is not necessarily that bad of an experience if you come out of it well, but I'm not seeing the benefits of taking that path either. Alcohol - Worse than marijuana in my opinion, though I suppose that's debatable. Slowly imprisons your will. You think you're in control, and that you're getting away with it, but you're not, and ultimately you have to fight for every bit that you gave away. I need to work this morning, so I won't elaborate. Caffeine - Obviously a quite benign drug, but I'm listing it just to illustrate a point. People use caffeine because it makes them more awake or alert. But if you look at the long term, its a net loss. People are stressed and worn down by the chronic stimulation, and they need to keep doing it just to break even. Everyone else at my office is caffeine dependent. None of them are more awake than I am. If you look at the big picture, the drug defeats its own ostensible purpose. Likewise for all the others. Heroin - better than some of the other drugs in that its possible to use without damaging your reasoning ability. But over time it makes everything seem bland and colorless, and those effects on your brain are not reversible. And of course its dangerous in strong doses. (Read the lyrics to all the songs on the Alice In Chains albumn 'Dirt' for a description of what it can do to your life and your will to live.) Benzodiazepines - Another evil of drug abuse is that when you're older, and you're tryng to manage your mental stability in the wake of earlier drug abuse, you often find yourself dependent on prescription drugs that are emotionally and spiritually numbing and have dangerous long term effects. My roommate Richard killed himself with these. A common thread for most drug users is they think they're doing something freeing and exploratory, while going through the same dead-end patterns that users have gone through for millenia. I'm 20 years younger than the 'baby boom' generation that discovered drugs in the 60's, so to a large extent I've lived in the world that they created with it. Its a train wreck. Not wisdom and intelligence, rather a phoney pretense of it and a lot of problems. And I'm old enough to see what became of all the people my age who got into drugs in high school, and the damage it did to their lives. Now I see younger people going through the same patterns, as if its new again and somehow its going to be different for them. Its sad.

[PureSoul]

why would drugs be worse for people who can go out of body easily? i dont think drugs are bad for anyone. Hello Qwer, OBE is a normal thing that always happen while you sleep. THe difference between Physical and spirit world is this that Physical world is limited and its consciousness is limited too. The Spirit world or Dream world is not limited and the spirit body uses subconsciousness as your mind instead of consciousness. Subconscious mind basically control and gives suggestions and ideas to your conscious mind to work properly. When your all physical senses shutdown you will automatically start to move with spirit body. Subconscious mind has its own senses and it does not need any type of physical sense to work. Subconscious mind do not need any type of physical brain or body or sort of like that to work properly its a real Out of body experience spirit works without body. But why drugs are dangerous its not because they give you temporary peace its because these drugs effect on your physical sense and consciousness when your physical senses shutdown you start to automatically move out of body as your nothing can destroy your subconscious mind because subconscious mind is invisible in physical world and cannot be detected by any means except you sync your conscious mind to subconscious mind to discover its world known as spirit world. Important to know that if u do OBE with step by step Guide no harm will come to your conscious mind but if u try to Induce OBE with drugs as i stated there effect is to temporarily shut down physical senses or conscious senses hence damaging brain itself and cause brain to work abnormally. So when you physical senses start to work abnormally your subconscious mind with its strict nature start to do its own activity hence your conscious mind will die because its limited and cant handle that much information coming from subconscious mind and you will be in spirit world forever and will lives in subconscious world which never dies and you will never again be able to perceive Physical screen or conscious world. So if u want to to do OBE then you are going to spirituality to train your conscious mind how to handle more higher subconscious signals at this level you must keep away yourself from anything that is bad including drugs. Because if u keep up doing OBE without any safety precautions for your conscious mind your conscious mind most likely to go abnormal and u will get Schizophrenia in which after returning from subconscious world your conscious mind keeps on thinking that you are still in OBE and that will drive u crazy. Hope this helps. Sorry for Long writing.