Is doing OBE dangerous?

[Bbybunnyx]

Can you forget how to get back into your body or something? Or get lost? If you do then do you die??

[Erii]

No it is not dangerous, if you "get lost" you can wake up, and you can't die in it either

[Alyzarin]

Well, that depends. If you don't believe in the mystical aspect of OBEs, then the thought that you could get lost is absurd, since you're not actually leaving your body at all, you just have a perception of being outside yourself. If you do believe in the mystical aspect, then why would you want to come back anyway? Serious answer: No, you're fine.

[shadowofwind]

Some Theosophists think its unhealthy if you do a lot of it. In their minds, your 'astral' body is an essential part of your physical body, and if you decouple them too much, there are mental and physical health implications. My own view, tentatively, is that there is no 'astral body', that its a mental map of your capacity to feel sensation within your physical body. So when you astral project, you're not actually leaving your body, you're just screwing with your perceptions. You do need that map to operate your physical body though, so I suppose if you went overboard with confusing it there would be mental health implications. I'm also 100% sure that this view doesn't capture the whole essence of astral projection though, so I can't rule out other risks. It seems to me that the best thing is not to make any assumptions. If it seems unhealthy to you, don't do it, if it seems healthy, do it, and don't let other people's fears or careless arrogance trump your own instincts and objectivity. In my experience its definitely not 100% bull. Maybe its 80% bull, if one can pretend to put percentages on such things, but the other 20% is objectively real. I don't think its possible or desirable to go off in the astral body and not come back, because in any plausible interpretation of what the astral body is, it has a dependence on the physical body. If it was possible to astrally project permanently, which I doubt, you'd just be dead, pretty much by definition.

[Arch]

I'm guessing you saw insidious It's probably 100% bull.

[♥Mark]

Can you forget how to get back into your body or something? If you get too into OBE-ing you will definitely become detached from reality.

[shadowofwind]

If you get too into OBE-ing you will definitely become detached from reality. If you can describe in detail how a person becomes detached from reality, that might help us understand what's really going on with astral projection. I'm assuming no drugs are involved, or that would be another confounding factor.

[Original Poster]

In all my years or my friends' years of research into Astral Travel, there has never been a single case of astral death.

[shadowofwind]

In all my years or my friends' years of research into Astral Travel, there has never been a single case of astral death. Well that's a relief! Its like one of those legal disclaimers at the end of TV drug ads. insomecasesmaycauseaimlessnessdepressionparanoiaps ychosisbadtemperamnesiaincontinenceanemialupiscanc erintestinalbadgersbleedingfromeveryoraficeifyouex perienceanyofthesesymptomsconsultyourphysician But no actual deaths!

[Original Poster]

You have nothing to fear but what, perhaps, may be lurking within the darkest shadows of your mind.

[shadowofwind]

You have nothing to fear but what, perhaps, may be lurking within the darkest shadows of your mind. I guess that statement is inarguably true, if we include reckless arrogance combined with lack of self love in the category of things 'lurking the the shadows of your mind'. Otherwise, given that we both earlier agreed that we don't really understand what's going on with astral projection, the statement appears to me to be a matter of dogma. I think its perfectly reasonable for a person to choose to explore astral projection without fear. But I don't think its right to assure someone else that no harm can come from it unless we actually know that. I don't understand astral projection well enough, or have enough experience with it, to know whether or not it can be dangerous. I don't think my few experiences with it had any adverse effects on me, though that's a bit hard to evaluate. But I do know of other comparable things, such neurofeedback for example, or even some strongly held beliefs, that other people have blithe confidence about but which I know can be dangerous.

[Original Poster]

If danger is being defined as harm, I put my money on the idea that your body can receive no physical harm in the astral plane and the most you can encounter is a little fear. Or a lot of fear. Either way, there's help if you know how to ask.

[shadowofwind]

I think we're in agreement that there is not a significant risk of being injured on a particular trip. The question in my mind was whether cultivation of the behavior has any undesirable long term side effects.

[Original Poster]

Moderation is a general rule to live by. There could be potential side effects, especially for particular personality types, from wanton neglect of reality in preference of astral traveling, but the same can be said about television, videogames, etc. I don't really consider that to be a side-effect or a danger, because I expect people to have the maturity to treat the activity as an activity, rather than become dependent upon using AP to escape reality. I'm more concerned with what you could possibly find, and it is my belief that if you approach AP with the proper mindset and remember that you can call for help and put your faith in a higher power in order to allow that help to intervene, what you encounter is likely to have a therapeutic value rather than shock you into developing PTSD. But then again, with an infinity of experience at your disposal, this is perhaps a little arrogant.

[WuChi]

i just think if going out like in one movie i seen what is crap that child could't back to his body cause was kinda kidnap be a demon ... but maybe if U try hard enough and often maybe w Will be trap in a dream state as I think maybe 1% probability that U will just stay in coma if it was possible I really would like to try it ;P

[Original Poster]

i just think if going out like in one movie i seen what is crap that child could't back to his body cause was kinda kidnap be a demon ... but maybe if U try hard enough and often maybe w Will be trap in a dream state as I think maybe 1% probability that U will just stay in coma if it was possible I really would like to try it ;P Don't worry that's impossible. There was not a single grain of truth to that movie.

[Sivason]

I recomend that if you are skilled enough to believe you can honestly obtain true OBE that you put it off for a few years while you master states of awareness and meditative skills. I know that when I was in my late teens (20+ years back) I felt the need to stop OBE until I mastered a few other paranormal things. I felt that when I reached OBE that small petty entities would focus on me, and it scared me. I decided that developing myself until I felt confident and powerful was a good idea. I never got a feeling that anything terrible would happen, just that I was playing with very serious 'magic' and not really being advanced enough to understand what the creepy little things were or wanted. On the other hand, now that I am much wiser and so on, I have no fear that harm could befall me from OBE. It is not an activity that holds much of my interest now. I think if an undeveloped person got into true OBE the only real bad things that could happen are first as Mark says 'detachment from reality' kind of a mild psycosis that impares your ability to focus and stay grounded, this is temporary. Second, if you attract the attention of entities you do not understand or have the ability to deal with, it results in a general creepy feeling, like mild paranoia.

[shadowofwind]

Sivason, That agrees with my experience. The first time was creepy, with all the things I could see and hear, plus I was scared I couldn't get back in my body. The next time or two I focused on trying to understand the physical nature of the experience, then after that I lost interest. In varying degrees I'm still aware of the creepy stuff, but I just overlay it on my conventional sleeping or waking experience, without projecting the full-on astral out-of-body scene. As far as I can tell, the out-of-body aspect is mostly a side effect of the mental state that enables other aspects of the experience. What part of Idaho do you live in? Private message if you want to.

[Sivason]

Shadowfiend, I live in Boise. Hear is a couple random, funny OBE items I have had Trouble with. If I did the standard out of body experience, where you feel a bit mentally drifty and have little form, I have never been able to look directly at my own body. The second I would stare directly at my own body, I would snap back into it. Kind of funny, I could never use OBE to take the place of a mirror, lol. The other thing is, if I try the advanced type where you remove the true astral form from your body, mainting full awareness and a function form with hands excetra, I kept having the very center of my head refuse to let loose. I would have everything out, but be pinned by my head. If I forced it, that point would stretch a bit, but left me stuck circling my body, like I was handcuffed by my head to another person I was trying to get away from. Very funny. I know that it is the attachement point for what you would call 'the silver cord' but as I said, it really doesn't hold my interst any more, so for now I leave it again for a few more years.

[shadowofwind]

I suspect that the 'silver cord' is a topological limitation of the tactile map that's being warped, and not a real connection made of 'astral' or other exotic matter. But I don't really know that. The difficulty of looking at the physical body makes sense to me, because it provides visual information that contradicts your tactile representation of where your body is. My strongest astral projection experiences were in Boise in the mid 90's. In two of the experiences my head came out of the body first. I didn't notice a cord, but wasn't looking for one. In the other experience I wasn't really 'out' of my body, but I inverted my spatial map to make outside seem like inside and vice versa, which seemed to me to be a similar type of phenomena. A weird aspect of this is the hemisphere's of my head would invert independently, so that on one side 'outside' was inside, while the other side was normal, and it flipped back and forth a couple of times. Recently, the only astral projection I've done has been less tactile and more related to hearing and vision, more like a semi-lucid than a lucid dream.

[Sivason]

Shadowofwind, Your points about a tactile map and of just screwing with your preceptions is fine. One thing should be clear if someone has any true level of control, be it mystical or neural. That thing is that they will not be concerned with proving anything to anybody. A person who is expanding their own mind may want to direct or help someone who is seeking, but should not care to force an idea on anyone, make a convert out of anyone, or even seek the satisfaction of demenstrating a power to someone who is needing to see proof. I believe that what you say here and in other posts is the truth. People can create feelings that they precieve as real, totallly through tricks on the mind. They can decieve their mind spacially and tactily. However, as a friendly person, who does not care if anyone believes me, I want to tell you something. The beginning exercises that lead to real paranormal powers ARE those exact mental manipulation you describe. Just consider that the mind's ability to be molded in such a fashion, may have some connection to the whole process. That said I have two things for you. 1) If you can create such strong mental trickery on yourself, you are clearly a person well on your way to developing true powers, perhaps you will be open to it, but if you are not, then you will not. 2)You do not know me, so disbelief is fine. However, I have personally witnessed and have done interesting wonderful things that are clearly paranormal. No, I don't give displays for the doubting, but just being friendly here, there are many truely wonderful paranormal things, and you have all the makings for a exciting adventure, if you don't shut your own progress down trying to limit what is possable in your own reality. Being able to explain how the brain does something scientifically does not mean that thing is not mind expanding, wonderful, and perhaps extends into deeper realms than you can at first understand. Boy, I sounded a bit fluffy and preachy there. Oh, well. So, I am in Boise. You were here. Are you still here.

[shadowofwind]

The beginning exercises that lead to real paranormal powers ARE those exact mental manipulation you describe. I don't have any doubt about that. As I have written elsewhere, my doubt is that this cultivation of powers leads anywhere worth going, that its not a cul de sac, backwater, or bad rut that a person gets caught in. My life so far has provided a wealth of andecdotal evidence, and some understanding, that seems to suggest its a bad rut. I don't think that its one that can be evaded however. The answer to me seems to be to continue moving forward, clarifying anything that is confused and loosening anything that is twisted, until it is no longer a rut. One way I try to do this is to sift the ideas through which we interpret these kinds of experiences, seeking to expand them into a deeper, truer, and more general understanding that doesn't suffer from the limitations of currently available ideas. About 12 years ago, after recognizing that my quasi-Theosophical beliefs were about half bullshit, but that I couldn't tell which half, I began re-evaluating everything from scratch. I push my mental model thought not because I'm trying to argue that its the most important aspect of paranormal experiences, but because its a thought that in varying degrees seems to be conspicuously missing from existing paradigms. And there are consequences to its absence - ignorance in that area seems to be a big part of what prevents people from distinguishing what's true from what's not true. All of my progress and understanding is at least in part a consequence of interaction with other people. When I get an insight in a dream, its because other people's minds touch my mind, and the combination makes something new possible. When I present my thought, essentially what I'm saying is here's a card a lot of you don't seem to be playing with fully. If you take this, and combine it with what you know, what comes out of that? Or if you already know it and apply it in a manner similar to what I do, then relate the other things you know to this thought, so that I'll learn something new, since it is part of my frame of reference. You do not know me, so disbelief is fine. However, I have personally witnessed and have done interesting wonderful things that are clearly paranormal. To me its unreasonable to doubt other people's experiences unless there seems to be a compelling reason to. For me disbelief would be an unnecessary and unsupported hypothesis - this is an application of Occam's razor. Also I objectively experience many things that other people consider unreal or impossible. Paranormal experiences don't interest me much unless they appear to be steps towards redemption. I'm not afraid of hell, our world is a hell. Yes I know there is much beauty and joy in our world, and I share some of it. But I'm fed up with the deception and violence that pervades both the 'animal' and human worlds, and I have some reason to believe its unnecessary. Of course fun is good for fun's sake, where its not destructive. But a lot of the thrill of paranormal power is in experiencing the reality of a broader realm, and that's not currently something I'm feeling a lack of for myself. I know its there and I trust its there.

[Sivason]

I hope that nothing I just wrote sounds like I am calling you a synic or doubter. You seem very open minded.

[shadowofwind]

No I'm good, no offense or bad feeling at all. I'm working on a reply, but I'm still at work so I'm trying to do that too.

[Sivason]

Shadowofwind, You seem to be on a good path. I think we understand each other's points. Keep telling people about 'mental model' and 'tactile map' and such things as you have experience with. They are missing from most teachings and arre an important part of the equation. They may think you are bashing the paranormal, but if they do, they are not really understanding. So good for you, and keep working on yourself at anatural pace. I wish you wonderful luck. I am leaving this post unless anyone posts a question about what I've said, or something else that drws me back. See you on other threads.