I agree, in that merely pondering a heady topic like this can result in a dream experience from the daily residue from such thinking, as it did for me in my above post
PS, like your avatar!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
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I agree, in that merely pondering a heady topic like this can result in a dream experience from the daily residue from such thinking, as it did for me in my above post
PS, like your avatar!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yeah, I think this should be a new thread, but I like the question. I've thought about it in terms of viewing someplace difficult, but not impossible to verify. Tried, but without the necessary clarity required. For example,, if I could view some distinct detail up on my roof, and then later go up there to verify.
[QUOTE=shadowofwind;1937206]Rhetorical question....Is it possible to accurately remote view a scene that nobody has seen or will see?
Actually, your description is very much like what I intended to describe. The headlight analogy is a bit flawed, but the best I could come up with at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
And what of a group of dreamers walking into your dream? The core of this, I believe, is dreamscapes, do they exist as thought-forms somewhere waiting to be re-illuminated by a repeat dream or another dreamer?
I visited an apartment (or such) that felt familiar, like I go there occasionally. It is built into a cement wall, like maybe under an underpass. About three rooms, open to each other the way a studio apartment might be configured. Anyway, I enter and am alone in there just sort of kicking back and relaxing. There is a little fountain like thing on a side table next to the comfy chair I'm relaxing in that has my attention. Then a group of about five enter, they are totally oblivious to me! And I'm thinking WTF?? What are they doing in my place? Or is it me that is trespassing? But why aren't they at all concerned with me being here? Later I do engage a female in the group in a short conversation, looking at the little table fountain like thing.
I had a few dreams like this too, but mostly it was a wtf moment, but this was about a group of people or pairs entering my dream space and is up to no good. I usually get the bad dream walkers lol. But they don't faze me a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skicanoe
Something similar happens to me as well (indeed, I have a feeling it's a fairly common event among all dreamers), but my WTF moment comes during mid-to-high level lucid dreams when, just as I'm about to start working on whatever goal I'd set, a crowd of strangers wanders in and just occupies the space of the dream.
They don't leave -- or rather they are always "there" wherever I go to escape them, and eventually one or two attach themselves to me personally (usually the same stranger DC, BTW), seemingly intent on -- and always successful in -- distracting me from my goals. Very frustrating during the dream, but intriguing after I wake up and consider it over a cup of coffee.
Yes i have been getting those "intruder" type dreamers/DC's but i have took a step to them and asked what are you doing here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Been doing this a lot during those times months ago that i kept having certain people intruding my goals and or my own dream space and they are doing it on purpose. Now everything is better because i have confronted them, i think you should do the same.
^^ I have confronted them, argued with them, had drinks in a quiet Manhattan bar with them, shouted "This is MY dream!" at them, and did about a dozen other things with, to, or at them in order to learn their intentions, meaning, or just why the hell they always turned up at just the wrong time. I never got much more than a friendly smile from any of them. In my case confrontation doesn't work, it only amplifies the distraction (yeah, yeah, I know: if I expect it not to work, it won't -- I have that in mind when it's not working).
Oh, and I also tried to run away, fly away, or simply change the entire dream scene to negate these strangers. And still they were there. At this point I'm learning to pursue my goals in the presence of crowds of strangers, or with one or two familiar (at this point) faces beside me, even in moments of otherwise perfect solitude. My new tactic might work, but it sure would be nice to know who or what these other people are!
And I'll tell you right now if I find out one day that all this human noise is emanating from my own unconscious, I'm going to be both relieved and really pissed! ;)
I would assume it is your subconscious trying to stop you from controlling your dreams. Either due to doubt, assuming it will happen, or your brain trying to lure you back to non-lucid dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I also been in a huge crowd in a beach and i HAD to concentrate there and pass many interruptions and actually ignore major attention getters. I would lose my thoughts then tell myself "OK these people just want me to forget what i wanted to do so i ignore or care less."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
^^ Definitely the right attitude, I think!
Probably. But it is fun to imagine the less likely explanations sometimes -- especially during the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDalek
Now assuming you're correct, and I've made the same assumptions many times (almost word-for-word), I have to wonder why my unconscious mind wants to stop me (aka, it) from controlling my dreams.
First: I have utterly no doubts (trust me, I've been at this for a very, very long time, and the last doubts about the potentials of LD'ing have long ago drifted into the wind). I have a pretty good -- though admittedly far from perfect -- grasp on expectation, so, should my expectations trick me, I have a few sound methods for checking my assumptions at waking-life's door (plus, this DC invasion happens most often during full-on LD's, so you'd think I could rearrange assumptions fairly easily).
That leaves my "...brain trying to lure me back to non-lucid dreaming." That, I often fear, could be the most likely "natural" explanation. Which begs the next question: Why is my brain, or nature, interested in drawing my self-awareness away from my dream?
Something to think about, I think. Indeed, that question is almost as intriguing as the "supernatural" explanations. Though not nearly as much fun!
I wrote this on my phone earlier today, planning to start a new thread when I came on DV... and then I found this one!
Quote:
Dream Interpretation VS. Shared Consciousness
Until recently, I always assumed that all dreams originate from (or can be explained by) one or more of the following:
- Daily residue: Real-life experiences, places and people
- Traditional dream interpretation: Subconscious thoughts and inner emotions
- Imagination: Dream characters and fictional places; sci-fi or supernatural content
However, I have been questioning that theory lately, and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.
I had a dream the other day which featured a DC who showed no resemblance to anyone I know in real life. In the dream, I was completely in love with this DC (who was female, despite the fact that I have a long-term boyfriend in real life.) There was a long story which involved my parents disapproving of her age (she was a teenager,) and some conflict with the girl over my lifestyle choices (which did not reflect my real life choices at all.)
I was 100% emotionally involved in this dream, but the moment I woke up, all of those feelings vanished. There was nothing in that dream that even remotely resembled any issues, situations or inner turmoil from my own life.
I’m bewildered by my dreams sometimes, because it often feels like I was a completely different person whilst in the dream, with a separate life and a totally different headspace.
So I’ve started wondering if sometimes I really might be experiencing someone else’s emotions...
There is scientific evidence to support the possibility of shared/collective consciousness, so I wonder if we could be ‘unconsciously’ sharing dreams with others all the time? Not necessarily having the same dream or experiencing exactly what’s going on inside their head, but having their thoughts and emotions mixed in with your own daily residue, etc. to create the random assortment of people, places and events that our dreams often contain.
It could certainly explain a lot of the weird stuff that goes on in my dreams! :P
What do you think?
Hi, thanks for sharing. From my experience, a dream like you describe is a personal psychological metaphor, and also partially a description of someone else's life. For me such a dream usually has a precognitive aspect also, for instance I might meet the first-person girl the next day. For a couple of years I had premonitions before I noticed that they always have a 'shared identity' aspect. Now the shared aspect is more dominant, probably in part because I'm more curious about that now.
I'd say I know for certain that I can experience myself as being other real life people who I hadn't previously met. What's more confusing to me is that I also experience myself being people who I am pretty sure don't exist. Its as if they are people who would exist if circumstances were in some other way, but those circumstances aren't actually possible in our world. I don't know if these circumstances exist in some other worlds, or if there's a fallacy in the way I'm asking the question. Maybe they're just some sort of alternative projection of 'real' identity that doesn't actually exist in that form anywhere. These 'parallel world' people feel very real to me, as real as other people do.
I'm always interested in understanding more about this sort of thing, though its looking like I've only got a couple of more weeks where I'll have time to post much.
I think that both the first and second person females in your dream represent parts of yourself. That's not the only interpretation, I agree with what you're saying, but I think the 'dream interpretation' aspect of it remains important anyway, even though your internal contact with other real people that enriches the metaphor.
From a systemic standpoint, consider what you've already stated about your dream experience. You actively doubted the security of your dream space and dream state. Seems the reactions you received from DC's may reflect that psychological split, as they stand as reflections of the psychic fragmentation taking place. The fact that you lucidly entered what felt like an entirely unfamiliar dream space could be a manifestation of memory failure, or even of disintegration process (as opposed to integration) due to your increased exposure to hidden complexes during the LD (which the normal dreaming process evokes when needing to address and compensate for a waking situation). Just a guess.
I'm locked out and unable to edit my original post, so I'm just going to post my edit here.
I'm editing here to add a preface, which is I'm out right deferring to the dreaming wisdom that's apparently been accumulated here. It's obviously well represented and its certainly fun to read. Experience is everything and many of you folks have oodles of it. To me that seems to be a lot of what lucid dreaming is about: experiencing. It's an invitation to participate in one's own dreaming which IS an opportunity to 'experience' transformation and change itself. So I mean no disrespect to any and all of the initiated here, as I'll occasionally show up and pipe in. In any case, I just wanted to introduce myself and give you a heads up for my future posts, which you can either read or save yourself the sigh by skipping over them entirely. I'm wide open, but I tend to be rooted in the -soul as psyche/psyche as soul -perspective -but that too is evolving with my work and OBE experiences...Quote:
Has anyone experienced what I like to call “Other People’s Dreams?” By that I mean you are in a dream (even when lucid), and nothing about the dream seems to have anything at all to do with you, your life, the people you know, etc. All the dream characters are strangers, the setting is completely unusual, and the plot of the dream relates to nothing in your life, your fantasies, or even, as best you can tell, waking life residue. I do not mean that you are watching the dream like it’s a movie, as that can regularly relate directly to the dreamer.
I have experienced this countless times, and even investigated it while lucid -- for instance, while aware that I was dreaming, and who I was, I would ask dream characters who they were; also, I would carefully examine the scenery to see if there is anything at all I find familiar. Oddly, when I questioned dream characters, they often looked at me like I was insane, but would not provide an answer. Also, these strangers in my dreams often acted as if I were an old friend. I wonder if all this might be some form of accidental dream sharing…anyone have thoughts about this, or similar experiences?
Also, and this probably belongs in another thread, I have found that strangers in my dreams (even those dreams that started out as mine, and not seeing like someone else’s dream) seem to make great efforts to curb my lucidity … ie, when I am in a state of strong lucidity and seek to eliminate the dream around me in order to change it or pursue other things conscious, I often find the dream suddenly crowded with strangers clamoring for attention, and occasionally grabbing my legs should I try to fly away....
Back to my original post, with a few edits;
...From a systemic standpoint, consider what you've already stated about your dream experience. You entered actively doubting the security of your dream space and dream state. Seems the reactions you received from DC's could reflect that psychological split as they stand as reflections of the psychic fragmentation actively taking place. The fact that you entered what felt like an entirely unfamiliar dream space could be a manifestation of memory failure, which is the patently boring thought, or even stand as a sign of a disintegration or a reaction to a hyper-integration process (as opposed to what happens with normal psychological integration). I could be way off here, but I wonder what repeated exposure to hidden complexes or previously unexposed psychological terrain does to our dreaming mechanisms? Does it revive, rewire or transform them? Dork them up? It appears there's plenty of room for all of these, and i imagine some of the answer might depend upon the degree of exposure and maturity level of the dreamer. In any case, your question left me wondering if your advanced LDing is essentially "taxing the system" so to speak, as you've completely transcended the compensatory function of the normal dream process. Shock then would seem a likely reaction, on many levels, as "you've arrived where you never really expected to at. And from the sounds of your post, the 'waking you' seems to be a little confused by the whole situation also. Just a thought.
Well said, Hotkafka, and good points all.
But here's the problem (and likely the reason for my post initially):
I assumed in the beginning, and through the first dozens of these types of dreams, that I was experiencing simple memory failure, or the rewiring ("dorking up" is an excellent term, I think) of things very much a part of my own existence. The trouble is, when I lucidly explored the dreams, I could find no basis for the mundane assumption.
Though these dreams likely are mine, and of my own creation, I could find absolutely zero similarity to them and my waking-life experience -- the settings are perfectly foreign, the themes outside my experience and interests, and the DC's utterly unknown (though I have "walked by" uncounted strangers in waking life, so I can understand at least how they could be remembered, yet still strange). I also took the time to explore all this during the dreams, with waking memory in hand. I really have trouble reconciling these dreams with my own reality, even if they sprung from it; and I had that trouble at the time of the dream, and not just in retrospect.
Also, please keep in mind that in my case there was no shock of which I was aware; unless you're implying that the "other peoples' dreams" themselves were a somehow a manifestation of shock, which is fascinating -- especially when paired with your theory that I may be "taxing the system," which I've also considered many times and have yet to fully dismiss or reluctantly accept ... I like to think that the "system" is dramatically bigger than my meager consciousness, and taxing it ought to be far beyond my capacities or abilities, but I could be wrong, and perhaps all the LD miles I put in have brought me to some unpaved roads, the passage over which might simply feel different now.
Interesting thoughts, Hotkafka, thank you! And thank you also for so well grounding all this in what we already "know." rather than just in what we might want to "be." Also, please be sure to clarify what I misunderstood...
Maybe a way forward is to accept the dreams for whatever relevance you can find for yourself, and accept the possibility that there may be other stuff there that's not yours, without deciding one way or another?
If nothing could come into your mind besides combinations and developments of what is already in it, you would forever be a captive of your own history.
Last night I dreamed of being at lunch at a job interview. One of the topics which came up was an employee who had just been fired. That woman had negligently entered 0's for the top several digits of a configuration code for an instrument, causing it to be burnt out during operation. Later it turned out that the equipment that the woman had trained with had 0's there also, but it hadn't mattered for that model. If he had known that, the manager who fired her would not have. I said something to the effect of "and avoiding loss of face is more important than acting to correcting the wrong". Then the people faded out of my awareness and the dream proceeded to other things.
The people in the dream seemed unfamiliar, foreign. Yet I there's a point highlighted by this story that I understand. The mistakes that people make in their half-true interpretations of their experiences do matter, but those mistakes are often both understandable and inevitable given history. As I have said previously, its not necessary for me to assume that this point is "intended" or not, or to accept it or not based on the fact that it occurred in the dream. There is an interpretation that I am capable of, and I accept it because I understand it to be true. And the dream provided an avenue for that minor insight, so I am grateful for that, and to any other people who might or might not have contributed to that understanding.
That is indeed basically what I've done in the year since originally making this post, though I continue, always, to speculate on their source. When lucid I have an arrogant tendency to disregard relevance, though, which I'd bet (and you would confirm) is a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
Isn't that statement the backbone of classic psychoanalysis, and dream interpretation itself? I haven't read or cared about Freud in decades, so I could be wrong...Quote:
If nothing could come into your mind besides combinations and developments of what is already in it, you would forever be a captive of your own history.
Interesting. And that does indeed confirm the mistake of disregarding the significance of the strange places and people. Perhaps I should heed the advice I hand out and start simply paying attention?Quote:
Last night I dreamed of being at lunch at a job interview. One of the topics which came up was an employee who had just been fired. That woman had negligently entered 0's for the top several digits of a configuration code for an instrument, causing it to be burnt out during operation. Later it turned out that the equipment that the woman had trained with had 0's there also, but it hadn't mattered for that model. If he had known that, the manager who fired her would not have. I said something to the effect of "and avoiding loss of face is more important than acting to correcting the wrong". Then the people faded out of my awareness and the dream proceeded to other things.
The people in the dream seemed unfamiliar, foreign. Yet I there's a point highlighted by this story that I understand. The mistakes that people make in their half-true interpretations of their experiences do matter, but those mistakes are often both understandable and inevitable given history. As I have said previously, its not necessary for me to assume that this point is "intended" or not, or to accept it or not based on the fact that it occurred in the dream. There is an interpretation that I am capable of, and I accept it because I understand it to be true. And the dream provided an avenue for that minor insight, so I am grateful for that, and to any other people who might or might not have contributed to that understanding.
Well, you've seen me rant against Jung, and I've never regarded Freud highly enough to even bother getting worked up about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
From the standpoint of a professional psychologist, of course the psychologist can bring something fresh into the picture by helping parse the inescapable rut that the patient is in. More convenient for us though if its possible to grow a little bit without paying $200 an hour to a priestly intermediary.
Dilbert - Search Results for dream analysis
My point isn't that psychologists don't help people, of course they do. I'm just saying that their doctrines are biased a little bit by their self interest and self importance, just like nearly everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
First, thanks for the kind comments. It's nice to see how willing you are to allow others in your process. I'm sure this is a gift well earned, and a quality that can only benefit you as well as us. As for your response - yes, I tend to agree with you in thinking that memory failure is least likely explanation. I offered that more for the patently scientific among us, as I always imagine them lurking from the rafters, although I'm not sure why I do that. The more experience I accumulate, both in my personal dreaming and in my dream work with others (Shadowofwind... don't judge me, please), the more I realize how little science actually matters in light of the transformation process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
The "shock" I was refering to was more reflexive, or a reaction of the dreaming mechanism reflecting an image that's consistent with its failures. I know you know dreaming is both functional and transcendent, but it seems at the boundaries -which reflect our unresolved emotional content or unexplored emotional terrain- there's images or an experience of these images that reflect this complicated state. This "state" can be rooted in a range of emotions, a few of which could be related to what you're experiencing now and could be heightened by your repeated lucidity, i.e. feelings of unfamiliarity, discomfort, dis-ease... To me this fits right in with Jungian complex theory, which I'm probably more at ease with than others here. Now, that's coming from somewhat established psychoanalytic theory. On the esoteric end, I'm not sure where this "unexplored emotional terrain" begins and ends, and I tend to be open about that. There's a whole lot of territory to cover there, and I tend to think the stuff we encounter at the boundaries evokes experiences like you had -whether you're tiptoeing into the transpersonal or possibly moving through the illusion of (s)elf to (S)elf, or perhaps heading into the objective unconscious, or at the woo-woo end -pockets of past life material, shared reality space, who knows. But there's a lot of room for interpretation there. The fact that you're there is important, however, and a good learning opportunity for both you and us all. I'd suggest trying some waking exercises to increase confluence between your sleeping and waking states, or 'dreambodies.' You may be waaay ahead of me already and doing that. In any case, if you're interested in decoding what I'm talking about, I'd be glad to try to clarify. In shortform, I tend to think that even though we're able to transcend a lot of our interior boundaries and accelerate our process exponentially through lucidity and OBE's, we still have to contend with the functional end of dreaming -which means addressing its place in transforming our personal process. I look at that as work that shrinks the distance between our waking and dreaming states, emotionally, psychologically, and "spiritually." That's what I try to do in the waking world -but its kind of a learning while on the job thing.Quote:
Also, please keep in mind that in my case there was no shock of which I was aware; unless you're implying that the "other peoples' dreams" themselves were a somehow a manifestation of shock, which is fascinating -- especially when paired with your theory that I may be "taxing the system," which I've also considered many times and have yet to fully dismiss or reluctantly accept ... I like to think that the "system" is dramatically bigger than my meager consciousness, and taxing it ought to be far beyond my capacities or abilities, but I could be wrong, and perhaps all the LD miles I put in have brought me to some unpaved roads, the passage over which might simply feel different now.
I don't know if that was any help whatsoever, but there it is.
Thanks again, Sageous, for posting about your amazing journeys! I've learned quite a bit parsing through your offerings. I can only imagine how much more the faithful here have benefited from your doing so.
yes, i experience that once. in my dream I have another dream and the other one is I am in the dream of my husband who's in my dreams too. Weird isn't it?
In my experience. Regular dream characters will often spaz out if I ask them if they are real or imagined, or I tell them it is a dream. With people who I THINK are real, they usually have a lasting presence with you, often will shrug, looked confused for a second and then carry on whatever they were doing previously. I recall one dream of standing in a room and panning my vision around where a few people were standing and staring at me. every time i looked there were a different numbers of DCs but there was ONE that always remained. I forget what happened after.
Today I visited what I could only call an “Other Peoples’ Dreams convention.” My lucidity level was high, though control was (understandably?) negligible.
The dream took place on a mile-or-so-long loop that connected hundreds of representations of what I assumed were peoples’ hobbies: model railroads, slot cars, quilts, piles of books, whittling, a small group of men talking politics at a bar, and many, many more. None of these hobbies were mine, and none of the hundreds of people attending the displays (but not visiting others) were remotely familiar to me, even as recurring DC’s.
By my second lap around the place, I came to call it PALM, which I assumed to be an acronym for something, though what, I couldn’t guess.
And yes, I know I'm necro-ing my own thread, but I felt this tidbit was worth sharing here, but not worth a new thread...
Amazing! Very interesting.
Id like to share one i'm not quite sure of. My friend has had a lot of nightmares. Unresolved traumas etc.
In my dream, she was there with me and pointed me to a man outside the window. After one hour this man was still there, and she freaked out completely. The terror was IMMENSE. Way more than i have ever had in a nightmare.
Well, i got a good look at the man outside the window. When i woke up i experienced some mild imagery. I made it my goal to follow this "man" as i suspected "demon". Well i followed it into another abstract world.
The waking experience was all rather vague so i'm quite uncertain. I told her about it, and as far as i know she doesn't have a lot of nightmares anymore.
What strikes me the most about these experiences (non-lucid) is that i have so little say in this. I was not a tad bit afraid, not a sign of my own emotions here. in this dream she was an external source causing a havoc in my dream.