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And I completely agree. Now how is any of what I said contrary to that? I believe in learning that's why I created the IOSDP, so we can learn more about shared dreaming. How better to learn about it than to try it, see what works what doesnt, learn from our successes and failures. How is that contrary to what you said?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
EDIT: To learn about shared dreaming, someone has to try it, if no one tries it, then how can we learn about it?
It's different because you do not question. You simply do, record, and make conclusions.
You do not ask: How is this possible? What specific factors led to this result? Is this just coincidence? How can we know?
This is the difference between a believer and a skeptic. A believer believes without question. A skeptic asks the hard questions.
In the end, their goal is the same, but one takes away more than the other, because they dared to question.
I ask questions. But I do not ask questions if I already know the answer. Trust me, I just spent two hours asking waking nomad questions about the hollow earth theory in his forum. I definetly ask questions. But for shared dreaming, instead of asking questions I say "let me find the answers by trying it.". I think were both in agreement, just misunderstanding each other.
Don't get me wrong, doing things is necessary, but like I said, doing things without questioning what you're doing and the results of that action will limit you.
To further the idea, I take it all your current shared dreaming experiments are based around the assumption that there is a "dream plane" and so you meet at a specific location. But have you questioned that assumption? Considered the idea that, maybe, it's all been in your head the whole time?
Perhaps then you'd try a different experiment. For instance, instead of meeting in a place, have everyone do the same task with the intention of doing it together. Now what results do you get? How do they vary from meeting in a specified location? What's causing your results in each experiment? What are the common variables between each? Etc.
These are the hard questions you must ask if you are to truly learn from your experiments.
Saying "We do this, we have had results, so it exists as we say it does," isn't good enough. There needs to be real analysis if you want to take away something greater.
This is my driving point. Take it as you will.
Atras:
I'm a bit late to the current game, but let me stick my nose in one last time:
Here is your response to me/Mzzkc/Hastur:
About all I can gather from it is that you decided to ignore everything both of us wrote and continue saying the same thing you did when you misinterpreted/failed to read my first posts. Why are you doing that? NOBODY HAS CALLED ANYONE CRAZY HERE. Let me say it again, in case you blacked out or something: NOBODY HAS CALLED ANYBODY CRAZY HERE. Also, NOBODY IS QUESTIONING ANYONE'S BELIEFS HERE. Let me say it again: NOBODY IS QUESTIONING ANYBODY'S BELIEFS HERE.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Atras
My complaints were about other things altogether, which I am definitely not going into again, and I think Mzzkc's and Hastur's points were more about process than beliefs. That process is incredibly important, and for you to simply dismiss or ignore it is disingenuous at best.
I really, really, really wish you would take a moment and actually READ my posts, rather than look at them from afar, prejudgments already in hand. You might find I had some nice things to say about you, about your thread, about dreaming-sharing, about the whole damn thing. You might also notice that I'm more heavily involved in all this stuff than my posts apparently indicate; that I have tried it, and likely have succeeded (I cannot, of course, prove that, even to myself; hence my desire for deeper discussion). You also might discover that I was not doing one single thing you accuse me of, and neither were Hastur or Mzzkc. You also might feel a bit embarrassed for going so many rounds and still completely missing the point.
Please read the posts; your blind reaction only clarifies our point. If after you read the posts and still write the same things, then fine; you win. This is, after all, your world. Not mine.
* "Here" being specifically my posts, and Mzzkc's and Hastur's posts. If crazy-calling happened elsewhere, that's not what I was talking about, and shame on them for doing so.
Okay I'm done here. I am reading all of your posts and I am trying to understand what you guys are saying more, but its really hard when you keep accusing me of being blind and ignorant and not reading your posts when I am. You know, people can think differently and have different opinions without being blind or ignorant. I can't discuss anything with you people because you think if i don't approach things the way you do Im blind or ignorant or whatever. I do question, I dont follow things blindly, I am a skeptic myself. Please look at the hollow earth thread in nomads forum. I got him angry at me because I was questioning too much. But just because I believe there is a dream plane does not mean I follow blindly. The reason we choose to meet in a specified location is because we are trying to yield results, and looking at past results we find that meeting at a specified location yields the best results. But you know, most of the results actually come from not that location but just similarities in our dreams. I don't think you guys are wrong, I don't disagree for the most part, and I do read what you say. And I would really appreciate it if you wouldnt accuse me of being blind or ignorant. So if you want to have an intelligent discussion where we can discuss our opinions and ideas without having to accuse the other person of doing something wrong because of their specific opinion. Then Id be glad to discuss. If not, then lets leave it at this.
EDIT: and this is mainly directed at sageous who still is calling me blind
We aren't calling you blind. We are making it clear you have not understood us, and are asking you take the time to do so. You seem to be doing this, so I thank you for putting in the effort.
And I didn't call you ignorant. My exclamation was expressing frustration that you would willingly choose not to understand our points instead of digging deeper.
As for believing in the dream plane, do you ever question this notion, try to disprove it? If you don't, you're living in much the same way as life-long religious folk who never dare to question the doctrine of their faith. If you don't think there's anything wrong with this, I simply need to point you to the history of the Catholic Church.
I don't intend this to be a spiteful comparison. It's simply a logical parallel that I hope causes you to think about things more critically.
And no, before you accidentally misinterpret, I'm not dismissing or criticizing your beliefs. I'm simply asking you to look at them more critically and act on that criticism if you're interested in bettering yourself.
You seem like someone who wants to learn more, understand more. I'm just trying to help you, and anyone else paying attention, along that path. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ok point taken. And btw catholic church is completely different. they blindly believe in something without any evidence or proof whatsoever, and they only believe in it because it was passed down by their parents. Completely different than this. But I get your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
EDIT: and I don't have a solid belief in the dream plane, if I find evidence to the contrary, I would change my views in an instant.
Atras:Quote:
Originally Posted by Atras
For what it's worth (and I know that ain't much) I never called you blind or ignorant. Not once, even in jest. I would not do that. The blinders comment I did make way earlier referred specifically to the things other people, people who are not Atras, were saying on their posts (and even that comment was calling no one blind, just intentionally narrow-minded, as the term implies). If you were referring to my "blind reaction" comment, well, that could be seen as calling you blind, but I was simply pointing out your categoric dismissal of my thoughts, which really has nothing to do with being blind. I never expected it to be taken that way -- sorry, I suppose I should have!
I honestly have no idea where you got ignorant from, except that I did use the word "ignore" once, though I'm not sure how anyone of sound mind could convert that word to "ignorant."
I am sorry that you have chosen to take all this so personally, especially because it never had anything to do with you -- as you would have known, had you read my posts. I do hope you fulfill your promise and actually read those posts -- I did mean well, especially to you, and I do like to think my writing is easy to understand, even if I do have a nasty habit of using way too many words!
In any event, as promised, you win. This forum thing is your game, not mine, and I am still having trouble figuring out the rules. I am sorry on several levels to admit that, but your answers confirm that until I learn those rules, there is no chance of discussing this stuff intelligently with you, since you seem to be offended by something in my posts ... even though I have no idea what it might be. Hopefully I'll work it out for next time.
In any case, you win. I'm outta here.
Good luck in your efforts, and maybe I'll see you in your dreams...
No one wins, we all understand eachother now, maybe a little? Lets leave it at this. Peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I hope this whole ridiculous argument has blown over then. I came here to make a post concerning the original post. But had no clue I was clicking into a debate thread. Im not going to comment on the actual argument but I think this whole debate thing is off topic, yes it may have to do with the OP but these skeptic statements belong in a thread concerning debating this topic not this thread. Atras has already said this thread is dedicated to the "secrets of the dream plane" I also think this is a VERY profound (in a good way) topic what nomad has brought up. However it's these arguments that just start tearing us apart. And it's silly.
Fair enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by Atras
Best of Dreams,
Sageous
Right you are Quassom! Sorry for the interruption, and I promise I'll try to be good now.Quote:
Originally Posted by quassom
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming?
Couldn't agree more. Now what were you gonna originally post?Quote:
Originally Posted by quassom
I actually posted it on the previous page lol it's on page 17
Oh, no. You have not feared the worse. You could die from getting hit by a car, or die from cancer, or heart disease. You could also get arrested by the police for no reason. You could get beat by the cops, thrown in a cage for no good reason. There are lots more things to be afraid of, you just have to look around you. You can be afraid of anything. It's amazing. I once made myself afraid of a fence, then I actually made myself afraid of the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by quassom
Understanding is nice and good but doing is what is important. As we already know all we really have learned is from experience. Thats is why history repeats itself so many times. Further our parents were telling us many truths from life but we only managed to get then after we hit our heads in the wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
I agree that questioning is important though :)
I enjoy self-realization.
Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
Doing is worthless, if nothing is gained from it. In cases where the goal is to learn something, if you simply do, but do not understand, you've pretty much wasted your time. Case and point, sure you can do your homework by finding all the answers online, but if you don't understand the material, you're proper fucked when the test rolls around.
Understanding something on the other hand, is never a worthless endeavor. Even in seemingly mundane cases, like understanding the strengths and weaknesses of different Pokemon types, there is something to be gained.
I don't think many History Majors and Theoretical Physicists will agree with you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
This is a whole other topic of discussion from which no conclusion could be drawn. So I'm not even gonna bother; we're off topic enough as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
I learned life lessons just fine from my parents, books, and other mentors without the need for hitting walls. I'm sure there are many other well-developed young adults out there that didn't need to OD on crack to understand it was a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
That's cool. You'll understand why I had to question your points, and seek out flaws in them, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
On topic:
Nomad: I should try that sometime. I don't typically invoke fear, but that seems like it could be a cool experience to play around with.
I think one without the other is just as worthless. You can have all theory and no action, or all action and no theory, both don't do any good. Just a thought, not needing any discussion about, this should not have been brought up again we are making unecessary enemies of ourselves.
\Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
As I was going through a death/rebirth process a couple years ago, I was so miserable, and I was trying to make myself happy. I realized that I was also making myself depressed, because it felt comfortable. This made me angry at myself. Having all these emotions made me feel helpless and weak. I then realized a lot of these negative emotions were rooted in fear. So, I wondered if I could make myself afraid of things. If I could make myself depressed or angry, I could make myself afraid. If I could make myself afraid, I could make myself happy.
So, I decided to try to use my thoughts to alter my emotions. I was sitting on the back porch of my parents' place, and I tried to become afraid of the most ridiculous thing: a fence. I stared at the fence, and I though about what I could be afraid of regarding the fence. The fence could fall on me. The paint on it is poison. Something or someone could be hiding behind it.... I actually made myself feel afraid. My heart rate increased, and I began to sweat.
Then, I decided to make myself afraid of the sky, then the ground itself. It worked.
The entire time I was conscious and aware of what I was doing to myself. I knew it was was irrational and illogical to be afraid of a fence, of the sky of the ground, but yet, I was afraid. I have never been afraid of such common things, but yet here I was, ten minutes into my own personal mindfuck, mindfucking myself into sheer terror. I felt like I was on the verge of a massive anxiety attack.
I burst into laughter, I couldn't contain it.
I then realized fear can be so absurd.
The purpose of fear is a temporary warning of danger. But, if we are not in danger, then what's the point?
I realized I could make myself happy by altering my thoughts and my focus. I looked around at the flowers and plants, and thought about how beautiful they are. I touched the plants, and I walked out of the patio, and took a deep breath. I lied down on the grass, and stared up at the sky. To think, I was in mortal fear of these two massive things just a second ago. I laughed to myself again. Life is ridiculous.
Ok I actually really relate to this. Without going into a long explanation, I am highly empathetic and can sense energy of people, things, places, entities, etc- hence, I know things and cannot figure out *how* I know them, I just do.
On several instances I have had dreams where I meet up with people that I just *know* are people, real people, out in the world somewhere......alive today. Sometimes when I come across them, I am trying to convince them that I am just as real as they are and they are in my dream. Other times, they already know I am real and they are real. But for some reason, I never reach the point where I actually think to exchange personal information with them and I wake up frustrated by the missed opportunity. I mean, you would think if I am lucid and know these people are real I would be like, "Check it out, look me up on Facebook" LOL.
Funny you mention the wormholes because for the first time ever I had a dream several month ago about being in a parallel universe and was accidentally slipping from our dimension to another dimension. The "portal" or whatever you want to call it was invisible....like, you couldn't just walk up to it and step through, something had to take place in your body first, like you had to be of a certain mindset to enter. I was doing it unknowingly but I am sure someone could perfect it and enter at will. It was really REALLY odd and would take all night to explain.
All of these things I do in my dreams, I did on accident. I only found out about lucid dreaming because I didn't know if it was something everyone experienced or what, so I found out about it when I was like 17. As a matter of fact, I spent the better part of my life assuming everyone dreamed the same way I did but when I became a teenager I realized it wasn't "normal" when people were "amused" by my dreams. So while I haven't really heard of everything you are describing here I definitely wouldn't pass it off because like I said, the things I have done in my sleep all were totally by accident and now it seems like anything is possible......
What was that about the Collective Consciousness, Nomad? :P
I am the same way, able to alter my thoughts to make myself happy. I haven't been truly depressed in a while, ever since I started doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I know I'm almost a year late, but is it too late to join this group? I believe almost everything in the first post, like the Annunaki and the endless possibilities of the multiverse. I really hope this is still going on >.<