Printable View
So true. I am a skeptic, actually. I am skeptical until I experience it for myself. I did not believe in shared dreaming until I did it. So, I understand if anyone else feels that way. But, in my egocentrism, I do not understand why people waste energy trying to get others to prove it, instead of trying it out for themselves if they think it be true. If you don't believe in it at all, then why would you ever want someone to prove it? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Aeolar
Perhaps during the course of proving something, you will find a way to share how that something is done, or you might even unearth some truths related to your search, but that you were never looking for in the first place. In other words, the struggle to prove yourself to others (even those who want to know) might open up new doors that you never knew existed. The "proof" I'm looking for is literal; I want to see how you did it, so that I can work from that proof and do it myself. I'd rather get the how-to from an expert than start from scratch on my own -- and run the risk of fooling myself into believing that a thing I just experienced was something other than just a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
Skepticism is not a case of not "believing" in something at all, it is more a real interest in bringing the reality of something into your life experience. The act of questioning is a very powerful tool; to dismiss it out of hand is not terribly wise.
Also, Wakingnomad, I'm sure you have absolute proof to yourself that you've experienced shared dreaming, even if that proof cannot be shared with others. And let's say I give you that. But what about everyone else? If a kid has a dream that is just a dream -- or perhaps something worse, like a psychotic event -- but believes, is totally sure, he just visited an astral plane, should we take him at his word that it is true? Is that fair even to him? Plus, how many people will "try it out for themselves," fail, and then convince themselves they succeeded? Is that okay too?
Things simply are not true because we believe they are, or because someone told us they are. Your "LOL" at such an attitude is very telling.
I agree :) but the same applies and to plants. As you said in further post the problem is the overproduction and raising meat. If a person has to hunt for the meat then that person will learn to respect the animal and the life which is providing. Now people think meat and other products grow in the store and that brings no respect for life at all. I think we do not have to restrict ourselves from trying different types of food it doesnt matter how we were brought up but we have to be thought how to respect that food. To live in balance with the nature. Thats all.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
One final thought about plants. They are the true buddhists on the planet if i may say so. The best creatures. So i have a great respect for them. Btw i watched some video on youtube where one guy said similar thing. He said the plants/trees are the biggest teachers on the planet and we have to learn from them.
This is your everyone else. Stop wasting your time ranting on how you need proof and how we are all crazy because of what we choose to believe in , and just DO IT! You want to see how shared dreaming is done, go to this forum. That's why I designed this project, to say "enough pointless debate about the existence of shared dreaming, lets just FUCKING DO IT!" And that's what we're doing. Over 70 people decided to stop debating and just do it, and although we're still in the infancy of this project, we've had more than enough results to prove that shared dreaming is real. And how could you say we have no interest in the truth? It's really makes me angry to hear you say that because that's what everyone on this site is trying to find, is the truth. Just because we believe in something doesn't mean we aren't interested in the truth. But we are discovering the truth right now, and I suggest you become more aware and pay attention before criticizing us. Theres nothing wrong with being a skeptic, it's not a dirty word and your completely entitled to want proof, but to critisize Nomad and all of us for believing in "unprovable 60's crap" is doing exactly what you are critisizing us for. You yourself are making "belief" sound like a dirty word. But it's not just belief, most of us have proved it to ourselves, and we are trying to prove it to everyone else right now. But shared dreaming is not the easiest thing to prove, BUT WE ARE TRYING, and we are working our asses off trying to prove it. I don't care if your a skeptic, I just wish you would respect other peoples beliefs, no matter how outrageous they seem to you. And do the proper research of this site before accusing us of having no proof. If everyone was tolerant of other peoples beliefs, the world would be so much more peaceful. Lets be tolerant, and lets practice what we preach. You don't believe in it and want proof, I do believe in it and so does a lot of people on this site, and we are trying to give you proof. If you don't like the proof then thats your opinion, but please respect ours as well. Peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
@Sageous: Interesting. But :) the truth is a thing which is different for everyone. Fact known for ages, true? On these forum people post experiences and thoughts about them. One can read, try out and see the 'truth' for oneself. What others believe or not is not of importance. But the believe that smth is possible makes it possible, at least to the degree of freedom we currently have. So proving that something is possible/'true' to others makes no sense when they just deny it from the beginning. Its also waste of time/power for the person who is trying to prove it. You cant help people who dont want to help themselves. I dont want to do that here but i will. Religious people believe in god's existence even though theres no proof for that. And some of them never even saw wild forest,mountain where one can find the proof or try to look into themselves and find there more proofs. Looking inside though is 'dangerous' thing, one can see what one does not want to.
Im sorry if i sounded a bit rude. That was not my idea.
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own common sense." - Buddha
Forgot to put this link here. I find it important because it shows very important things about language and reality, personal realities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
I'm allergic to coconut nomad well i will one of those days try other milks but what cult of taurus are you talking about what horoscope thing is this ?
To waking nomad: for the record there are certain things I believe about this post and certain things I don't. But assuming this is all happening and murder is apparently a very possible thing to do, don't you think this is a little dangerous? I mean this website Is the first thing that pops when you type "lucid dreaming forum", isn't it risky to tell this many people about this? These CIA sects surely have seen this thread by now, assuming they are looking for threats.... Cause that's what we are right now right?Anybody here who takes an interest in shared dreaming is slowly becoming threatening to them no? I mean correct me if i just misread something (cause I DO misread things) but you said templars are currently trying this, surely by now at least once they have succeeded right? I guess I just fear for the worse.
When skeptics want to see proof of how you did something like dream share, it is like they are expecting you to write a post on how to catch a wave and surf. Then they go try it and fall off and get a wave crashing on them. Then they come back and say that your proof didn't work. Because of the skeptical position from the beginning they are committed to proving something false rather than learning a cool new skill.
... And that's with something that you can see other people doing!! When it's something that happens "inside your head" where people can't see, it's even that much harder to convince somebody.
It strikes me as very odd that someone who seems to be a complete Rational Materialist who demands empirical scientific proof would even look into something like shared dreaming or related ideas.
The cows bleed when they are hooked up to the suction milking machines and they put the chocolate into the milk to cover up the blood. Better to make your own chocolate milk, like they said, out of coconut or almond milk, Yum!Quote:
Originally Posted by wana
You guys are completely off-base. I went into shared dreaming with a scientific, skeptical mindset, doing all I could to disprove the phenomena through a bastardized version of the scientific method. In the end, I ended up proving it to myself, but my conclusions and hypotheses on how dream sharing is possible vary greatly from those who simply "believe" in the phenomena. This is likely because I was able to accumulate bits of interesting data along the way, since I was actually paying attention to what was going on, instead of jumping in blindly.
I take this approach for pretty much everything and it's been more than rewarding. My subjective knowledge is stronger and more grounded than most can claim, and I don't need to worry about belief or believing in anything, really, as I can consider any possibility and test freely for the truth.
Some "real" benefits of this approach to the "unreal" include obtaining mastery over my dream-state, emotions, and thoughts. I can bend the dreamworld according to my will and feel whatever I desire whilst awake.
Need proof? I've taught the seemingly wilder methods to others with immediate results, 'cause I payed attention, did my research, and learned how all these things worked well enough to show someone else the process. Doing something is one thing, but understanding what you're doing is a different matter entirely, and vastly more important IMO.
As it is, blind belief leaves little room for true understanding.
tl;dr Belief hurts more than it helps, and isn't really needed. Open-minded skepticism and consideration allows one to find truth and greater understanding. U jelly?
Okay, I'll bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenietz
"Truth", capital-T Truth, is not subjective. Perception is subjective. Opinion is subjective. A small-t truth like "Hastur is an asshole" is subjective, but the laws of physics? Not subjective at all. If something violates those laws, then it can't be done, no matter how much you believe they can. People have jumped from roofs, believing they could fly. Could they? No.
Yes, some people just refuse to be convinced. When Galileo unveiled his telescope and map of the solar system, many people refused to look through because they'd convinced themselves there was nothing to see. But Sageous isn't saying "Herp derp silly rabbit shared dreaming is for kids", He's asking for more "practical" information, and recommending that you set out without any preconceptions about shared dreaming's reality, rather than just without negative preconceptions. I myself consider shared dreaming perfectly plausible - there's still a lot we don't know, and quantum physics is painting an exciting picture of the universe(quantum entanglement, for example), so when I develop my dream control and stability more I'll certainly give it a damn good try, but I won't expect it to work or not to work. I approached hypnotism(a surprisingly similar subject, with regards to the arguments about it) with a similar mindset, and am now both convinced of it's reality and an occasional practitioner.
In summary: Relax, it's not an attack, and Mzzkc is right.
Can we stop this endless debate about shared dreaming. If you don't believe in it and want proof then try it yourself. Its that simple. We are all wasting brain cells by constantly debating about "what is a skeptic" "what is truth" " what is proof" " your all crazy because you believe insomethong" blah blah blah. If you don't believe in it and want proof then TRY it. If your too lazy to try it then you have no evidence that it does t exist. If you do believe in it and don't have proof, try if. An if you do believe in it and have proof, great. The end, that's all there is too it. This thread is about discussing the secrets of the dream plane, not going in endless circles about whether its real or what a skeptic is or what truth really is. If you want the truth try it, If not then stop inciting endless, pointless debate where know one can really win. You can't convince the believers that what theyve experienced is wrong and they can't convince you that shared dreaming is real. So lets stop. Let's be mature about this and accept that we all have different beliefs, and that is OK. Now let this thread return it's original purpose which was discussing the secrets of the dream plane, and if you really so desire to go into endless debate regarding truth and skepticism shared dream, create a new thread for it. Seriously, there's nothing wrong with being a skeptic but neither side will ever win, just accept that were different and move on.
Okay, I went to bed promising myself that I would not respond to the inevitable “replies” to my post yesterday. Then, after yet another dream whose main DC was a stranger who knew me well and was trying to get me to understand something that I couldn’t/wouldn’t grasp, I awoke figuring I should at least see if my words were understood. And they mostly were. A few responses, though, and then, to echo Atras’ very sensible request, I’ll let my dissent fade so we can all go back to discussing the Secrets of the Dream Plane:
First, Atras, I was speaking to this particular thread, not the entire site; sorry I used the wrong word in my post. Next, I am aware, and was not criticizing you or your effort in any way shape or form -- please don’t take offense at something that was not directed at you. I do respect other people’s beliefs -- in fact, if you reread my post, you’ll see that my rant was directed at those who choose to ignore others (ie, but not limited to, skeptics) who might say or ask something they do not wish to hear; as I said before, if that is okay here, I will step back and question it no more.Quote:
From Atras: This is your everyone else. Stop wasting your time ranting on how you need proof and how we are all crazy because of what we choose to believe in , and just DO IT!... I suggest you become more aware and pay attention before criticizing us….I just wish you would respect other peoples beliefs, no matter how outrageous they seem to you. And do the proper research of this site before accusing us of having no proof. If everyone was tolerant of other peoples beliefs, the world would be so much more peaceful. Lets be tolerant, and lets practice what we preach. You don't believe in it and want proof, I do believe in it and so does a lot of people on this site, and we are trying to give you proof. If you don't like the proof then thats your opinion, but please respect ours as well. Peace.
Atras, I’ve been doing the “proper research” probably since before you were born, please don’t patronize me. I was not talking about research; I was talking about specific sophomoric “blinders on tight” attitudes expressed on this thread, not all the research existent on this site.
Atras, who said I don’t “believe?” Not me. A person with questions is usually someone who wants to believe, and not the opposite. Indeed, if you review your own thread, you’ll see that I made a few posts that I felt were positive, and written in an attempt to help you. Indeed, I must admit that I’ve already paid a couple of LD visits to your pyramid, and though I saw lots of forms gathered around it, I can’t say I met or shared with anyone (if it matters, I likely would have appeared as a flash or ball of energy in the northern sky); is that a thing someone who “doesn’t believe” might do? I don’t think so. In fact, the only thread I tried to start on this site was about shared dreaming. Why would that be, if I didn’t believe, or at the very least wish to believe?
Did you think for one moment that perhaps I already do believe, and that my annoyance is that the self-serving emptiness of this thread is aiming its users -- and the non-posting readers I honestly care more about -- in exactly the wrong direction, leading not to psychic growth and improved shared dreaming skills, but to self delusion and destructive self-importance? Probably not. Seriously, a true skeptic would have spent fifteen seconds on this thread; I was trying to making a point about something much bigger.
Finally, Atras, tolerance is a two-way street. Period.
Though Hastur has already said exactly what I would have in response to your entire post, I’d like to add just one comment: No, the belief that something is possible does not make it possible, else I would have long ago become an immortal energy being at best, or at least have won the Lotto a couple of times, and I haven’t.Quote:
From Kenietz: …But the believe that smth is possible makes it possible, at least to the degree of freedom we currently have. So proving that something is possible/'true' to others makes no sense when they just deny it from the beginning. Its also waste of time/power for the person who is trying to prove it. You cant help people who dont want to help themselves…
The act of proving something to someone else makes a lot of sense, because it forces the prover to really examine what he’s got, and, especially when trying to prove something to someone who refuses to get it, the prover might see some flaws in his own theories or beliefs that can be improved upon. Is there anything more valuable than that? And on a personal note: when exactly did I say I don’t want to help myself? I didn’t, even once.
It is sad that someone who asks a question must be judged a Rational Materialist -- not that there’s anything wrong with that! -- who demands scientific empirical proof; I don’t remember asking for any of that. Look at the LD count in my little profile over there to the left - do you really think a Rational Materialist would dip consciously into the Dreaming that many times? I don’t. Please don’t accuse me, or others who dare to ask questions, of being things we obviously are not.Quote:
From Darkmatters: ...It strikes me as very odd that someone who seems to be a complete Rational Materialist who demands empirical scientific proof would even look into something like shared dreaming or related ideas.
Nice post Mzzkc! Wish we were seeing more of you around here!
So that’s it for me. I made my points, my defenses, and likely said more than I ever wanted to, and that usually means it’s high time to stop.
Now it’s time to follow Atras sound advice, and let the conversation unwind on its own. I will try not to interrupt again.
I know Sageous said he'd stop, but I'm not Sageous, and I read the following and was seriously questioning if Atras even read half the posts he's talking about.
First of all, none of us was going in circles. There have been excellent points made in these dissenting posts the likes of which are rarely, if ever pushed here on BD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atras
Second: what beliefs? If you recall my post, you'll remember I try not to have any at all.
And thirdly, no one was asking for proof. We're not retarded enough to think that someone can "prove" this to us. (Though there are some convincing case studies out there, as far as shared dreaming goes, anyways.)
All of us were simply suggesting that by approaching all these subjects with no preconceived notions you learn a helluva lot more than you do if you jump into things going "Lol, let's dream share on the dream plane gaiz!"
But you're right. No side will ever "win" because those who are hard-set in their beliefs refuse to look at and consider new points that may shake the way they view things, as you have already proven to us. Because of this, no progress can ever be made in these discussions, which I hope you'll agree is a real shame.
Now I'll stop, let all these points stand, and wait to see if anyone comes up with a reply that actually addresses any of them.
What I meant by going in circles, is this discussion is not new, you all make the same points that so many have made before you. But no side can ever win because we can never give you sufficient enough proof, and you can never convince us what we experienced was false. And we're not saying "he gaiz lets go dream share." We're saying "he guys lets attempt to share dreams because we are tired of just discussing it and debating it, we want to see if its actually true." The only possible way to prove shared dreaming is to do it, and thats why we're doing it. And how can you be against that. We are in the process of a giant experiment to prove to all of you guys that its real. We're doing exactly what you've asked us to do, give you proof. So why don't you just sit back and relax, enjoy the show and watch as we give you proof. And why wouldn't you be hardset in your beliefs, if you've actually experienced shared dreaming. I will never consider that its not real because I've experienced it. It would be illogical for me to even consider that. That's all we are trying to get across to all of you skeptics. That its ok that you are a skeptic, we don't mind, all opinions are allowed, but we're all tired of endless debate of something that can only be proved with action. So lets get to action, lets actually prove it. Enough theory and no action. Lets take our theory and start doing action. How could anyone complain about that?
Yep. You didn't read/understand any of these posts.
I'm done.
That made no sense at all but ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
Holy fuck, those were the simplest three sentences I wrote in this entire thread. I'm laughing my ass off right now. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Atras
Ok tell me. What point are you trying to get it? What do you want? What do you want us to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
You yourself said you proved it to yourself, so why are you arguing?
The points have already been made, not just by myself, but by Sageous and Hastur.
I've tried to help you understand them. I really have. But you're too caught up in preconceived notions to see what we're saying.
This might help: No one is contesting the existence of shared dreaming.
Understand that, read through the posts again, and this time, keep that in mind.
As for what I want: A response that addresses the points we've made instead of stagnating in the same crap you see on the rest of BD. New thought. Maybe even a counter point that will force me to reconsider my stance. In one word: progress.
I will leave it at this. If its true that no one is debating shared dreaming, and that no one is asking for proof, and that no one is saying that we don't have enough plausible proof. then I have no need to be in this conversation.
Yay willful ignorance!
DV is just the best.
Again you make no sense. I changed my mind, I will not leave it at this, I'm not done. I wan't you to tell me exactly what your stance is. Don't tell me to read the other posts, I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
This is the last time I will repeat myself. My language will be simple. If you cannot understand my point after this, there is nothing I can do to help you.
Learning, understanding, is more important than doing. It allows you to teach. It allows you to grow.
You cannot learn or understand if you do something blindly. Belief, preconceived notions, lead to blind doing.
You do not question, so you do not learn.
Therefore, you cannot teach. You cannot grow.