Laws of the Dream Plane, Dream Battle Theory

If you think this is ridiculous, please test out these laws in your lucid dream battles to see if they work or not. I challenge you to disprove these laws through your dreams.

To understand dream Battling, you must understand the Laws of the Dream Plane. Just as there are physical laws, physics, there are dreamical laws, dreamics.

First some laws of the dream plane:

1) The dream plane is made of pure energy.

2) Thoughts are pure energy.

3) There are different types of beings in dreams: DC's, dreamers, interdimensional beings, non-sentient beings, and semi-sentient beings.

a) DC's: Dream Characters. Manifestations of a dreamer's mind. They will disappear as soon as the dream stops thinking about them.
b) Dreamers: Other dreamers from Earth, the physical plane.
c) Inter-dimensional Beings: Sentient beings not from earth.
d) non-sentient beings: these creatures are alive, yet have the mind of a simple organism such as a clam.
e) semi-sentient: these are creatures that are partially aware of themselves, such as many animals.

4) We all have an Inner World. Our Inner World is an infinite world of our subconscious mind's creation. "My" dream is a dream in my Inner World.

5) The Outer World is the dream plane beyond a meeting of minds. The Outer World is another total plane of existence.

6) Each Dimension is made of three planes: the dream plane, the physical plane, the astral plane.

The Physical Plane
The physical plane is where the physical waking world is.

The Astral Plane
The astral plane is between the dream plane and the physical. The astral plane is the real of remote viewing and astral projection. In the astral plane, you perceive some of the physical plane, and some of the dream plane simultaneously. Remote viewers are taught to filter out the dream plane, and focus on the physical by keeping their eyes open. Astral projection is more spiritually focused, and intentional AP'ers (which is inducing and out-of-body-experience), will be more aware of the dream plane. People astral project in their sleep all the time.

The Dream Plane
The dream plane is a plane of pure energy. Thought appears instantly on the dream plane. Intelligent and creative people can be very powerful on the dream plane no matter what state their physical body is in.

Different types of Battle scenarios:

Dreamer vs. DC's:
If you are fighting your own DC's, you can instantly kill them all, love them all, or ignore them, and they will be instantly defeated. If you are battling another person's DC's, you are indirectly fighting that person, so see the rules of dreamer vs. dreamer, and dreamer vs. sentient being.

Dreamer vs. Dreamer:
- In this scenario archetype, attention, and energy are all key.

Dreamer vs. Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being
- The rules are basically the same for fighting dreamer vs. dreamer, but generally inter-dimensional beings are more aware of the dream plane, especially whether they are in someone else's dream, their dream, a mix of the two, or in the Outer World. They may or may not have a physical body in their home dimension. They may have been living on the dream plane for centuries, or untold millennia, therefore can be extremely powerful.

Archetypes
Archetype means our frame of reference. Here's an example: You are into magic, so you shoot fireballs at an enemy. He becomes a water elemental, and puts out your fireballs. Another person fires a gun instead. The opponent becomes a block of granite. These are examples of a countering defense based on archetype. A good example of this is the wizard vs. witch battle at the end of The Sword in the Stone. Other examples of dream battling: Dragon Ball Z, Avatar, D&D.

- Even if you ignore a dreamer's attack, you will still get attacked, because the other dreamer is sending antagonistic energy toward you which will not disappear just because you ignore the dreamer, since the dreamer is more than a manifestation of your thought.

- There is always a weakness in every attack that can be exploited for a defensive counterattack. The weakness is based on the originator's archetypes. For example: The weakness of fire is water.

Attention
Attention is focusing energy. If you give another dreamer too much attention, they can actually steal your energy.

Example: Tooth moves to attack me in slow motion, with a giant zombie fist. I am fascinated yet disgusted with the detail of the zombie fist. I can see the rotting flesh, and even maggots crawling in it. I want to puke. BAM! He socks me right in the forehead.

So, in the example, I gave so much attention to his fist, it consumed my thoughts for a split second, and he was able to get a hit in. In other words, he stole my energy for a second by stealing my attention.

Energy can be pulled using attention in any way. Using Cuteness, Beauty, Sexiness, Disgustingness, Size, Ugliness, Hilarity, Sympathy, Fear are some techniques to name a few.

Solution: Learn how to be aware of everything. Do not allow any one thing to draw your focus for too long. This can be likened to Perseus using a shield as a mirror so as not to look into the face of Medusa.

Energy

The entire dream plane is energy. Therefore ignoring another dreamer's attack is not effective. Energy gives us strength and endurance. There are basically two types of attacks, a pull attack, and a push attack. A pull attack is taking the opponent's energy away.

Dreamer vs. Non-sentient beings

Non-sentient beings that will attack you are parasites. The benign non-sentient beings draw energy from the ambient energy. There are also non-sentient beings that draw energy from these, like animals, and so on. These parasites attach to you, or infect your dream body and feed off of your energy.

Dreamer vs. Semi-Sentient Beings

These may be beings evolving toward sentience. They are like many of the animals, such as dogs, which have a level of sentience, but not to the level of elephants, dolphins, or humans. These may be simple minded, but they may have been living on the dream plane for a long time. They may attack in packs or swarms.

Wow,,, this is really good.

You really broke it down WakingNomad. Good Job :goodidea::bravo::goodjob::breakitdown:

I want to mention, I think it's awesome that other people can have Dream Characters, DC's of you. Now, I'm curious about this, and about what kinda cosmic laws are involved in this, but, I had a lucid dream once, one of those alpha lucids if you will, one that sticks with you for years and years. I was aware when both my mother and my girl friend had created DC's that were me. Now, this is the wierd part, being awake and knowing I was dreaming I could instantly manifest myself, seamlessly into the DC of the me in their dreams, now knowing everything the DC of the me in their dreams had been doing. Now, that is freaking wierd to me.

For example, my mom was having a nightmare of being attacked by two burglers, I felt her , I then decided to go to her, and upon showing up saw the distressfull situation she had created. I killed the two burglers for her, and left it at that. Now, by killing the two burglers (her DC's) something the me as a DC in her dream wasn't going to do, I felt finished with the situation and left.

My girl freind was having a dream of me at a Rave. I showed up and instantly knew everything the DC of me in her dream had been doing and saying.
I really wanted my girlfriend to know we were dreaming and told her so. She said she knew we were dreaming, but I wanted to illustrate it more.
I asked her to touch her finger to mine. When she did, we could push our fingers through eachothers fingers. I know that sounds trippy, but it wasn't, it was like we were each pushing our fingers into water, there was even ripples expanding away from our fingers in the middle of the air between us. Anyway, regardless of the fact that I felt absolutely sure we were dreaming together, the next day she remembered none of it. Kinda bummed me out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkoMarco

Wow,,, this is really good.

You really broke it down WakingNomad. Good Job :goodidea::bravo::goodjob::breakitdown:

I want to mention, I think it's awesome that other people can have Dream Characters, DC's of you. Now, I'm curious about this, and about what kinda cosmic laws are involved in this, but, I had a lucid dream once, one of those alpha lucids if you will, one that sticks with you for years and years. I was aware when both my mother and my girl friend had created DC's that were me. Now, this is the wierd part, being awake and knowing I was dreaming I could instantly manifest myself, seamlessly into the DC of the me in their dreams, now knowing everything the DC of the me in their dreams had been doing. Now, that is freaking wierd to me.

For example, my mom was having a nightmare of being attacked by two burglers, I felt her , I then decided to go to her, and upon showing up saw the distressfull situation she had created. I killed the two burglers for her, and left it at that. Now, by killing the two burglers (her DC's) something the me as a DC in her dream wasn't going to do, I felt finished with the situation and left.

My girl freind was having a dream of me at a Rave. I showed up and instantly knew everything the DC of me in her dream had been doing and saying.
I really wanted my girlfriend to know we were dreaming and told her so. She said she knew we were dreaming, but I wanted to illustrate it more.
I asked her to touch her finger to mine. When she did, we could push our fingers through eachothers fingers. I know that sounds trippy, but it wasn't, it was like we were each pushing our fingers into water, there was even ripples expanding away from our fingers in the middle of the air between us. Anyway, regardless of the fact that I felt absolutely sure we were dreaming together, the next day she remembered none of it. Kinda bummed me out.

---

Congratulations on being the first one to reply on over 200+ views. I think a lot of people think it's too long or just too foreign. Anyway, going into a DC of you is a trippy idea. Touching your girlfriend's fingers like that sounds amazing. It happens a lot that people don't remember their dreams in general. Recall is the most important skill in dreaming, for it is the foundation of all.

Attention
Attention is focusing energy. If you give another dreamer too much attention, they can actually steal your energy.
Example: Tooth moves to attack me in slow motion, with a giant zombie fist. I am fascinated yet disgusted with the detail of the zombie fist. I can see the rotting flesh, and even maggots crawling in it. I want to puke. BAM! He socks me right in the forehead.
So, in the example, I gave so much attention to his fist, it consumed my thoughts for a split second, and he was able to get a hit in. In other words, he stole my energy for a second by stealing my attention.
Energy can be pulled using attention in any way. Using Cuteness, Beauty, Sexiness, Disgustingness, Size, Ugliness, Hilarity, Sympathy, Fear are some techniques to name a few.
Solution: Learn how to be aware of everything. Do not allow any one thing to draw your focus for too long. This can be likened to Perseus using a shield as a mirror so as not to look into the face of Medusa.
Energy
The entire dream plane is energy. Therefore ignoring another dreamer's attack is not effective. Energy gives us strength and endurance. There are basically two types of attacks, a pull attack, and a push attack. A pull attack is taking the opponent's energy away.
Dreamer vs. Non-sentient beings
Non-sentient beings that will attack you are parasites. The benign non-sentient beings draw energy from the ambient energy. There are also non-sentient beings that draw energy from these, like animals, and so on. These parasites attach to you, or infect your dream body and feed off of your energy.
Dreamer vs. Semi-Sentient Beings
These may be beings evolving toward sentience. They are like many of the animals, such as dogs, which have a level of sentience, but not to the level of elephants, dolphins, or humans. These may be simple minded, but they may have been living on the dream plane for a long time. They may attack in packs or swarms.



Okay, I didn't even touch on this stuff before, because, I was too self aware by what the first stuff you said was making me think of.
Basically, this is the real stuff right here. This is the money shot so to speak. This is the meat and potatoes of what your getting at.
This is basically taking the idea of the "Small Fry Petty Tyrant" and the idea of "not indulging" in our tendencies to give away or be tricked into giving away our energy as penned by Carlos Castaneda, then, you kinda candy cane swirled in some Celestine Prophecy ideas as far as "control dramas" (the sympathy card gets me a lot) are concerned. Very nice. This is basically why Carlos says to focus on your hands when you feel your losing your lucidity, so that you keep your energy.
I'm impressed, I mean, this stuff is hard to practice in the waking world, I have no idea how you do it in the dream world. Nice stuff though.
I'll be working on my dream memory.
Maybe working one aspect of your dream memory will enhance the other.
By remembering your dreams when your awake, maybe the dreaming memory will be enhanced enough to remember your waking self information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkoMarco

Attention
Attention is focusing energy. If you give another dreamer too much attention, they can actually steal your energy.
Example: Tooth moves to attack me in slow motion, with a giant zombie fist. I am fascinated yet disgusted with the detail of the zombie fist. I can see the rotting flesh, and even maggots crawling in it. I want to puke. BAM! He socks me right in the forehead.
So, in the example, I gave so much attention to his fist, it consumed my thoughts for a split second, and he was able to get a hit in. In other words, he stole my energy for a second by stealing my attention.
Energy can be pulled using attention in any way. Using Cuteness, Beauty, Sexiness, Disgustingness, Size, Ugliness, Hilarity, Sympathy, Fear are some techniques to name a few.
Solution: Learn how to be aware of everything. Do not allow any one thing to draw your focus for too long. This can be likened to Perseus using a shield as a mirror so as not to look into the face of Medusa.
Energy
The entire dream plane is energy. Therefore ignoring another dreamer's attack is not effective. Energy gives us strength and endurance. There are basically two types of attacks, a pull attack, and a push attack. A pull attack is taking the opponent's energy away.
Dreamer vs. Non-sentient beings
Non-sentient beings that will attack you are parasites. The benign non-sentient beings draw energy from the ambient energy. There are also non-sentient beings that draw energy from these, like animals, and so on. These parasites attach to you, or infect your dream body and feed off of your energy.
Dreamer vs. Semi-Sentient Beings
These may be beings evolving toward sentience. They are like many of the animals, such as dogs, which have a level of sentience, but not to the level of elephants, dolphins, or humans. These may be simple minded, but they may have been living on the dream plane for a long time. They may attack in packs or swarms.



Okay, I didn't even touch on this stuff before, because, I was too self aware by what the first stuff you said was making me think of.
Basically, this is the real stuff right here. This is the money shot so to speak. This is the meat and potatoes of what your getting at.
This is basically taking the idea of the "Small Fry Petty Tyrant" and the idea of "not indulging" in our tendencies to give away or be tricked into giving away our energy as penned by Carlos Castaneda, then, you kinda candy cane swirled in some Celestine Prophecy ideas as far as "control dramas" (the sympathy card gets me a lot) are concerned. Very nice. This is basically why Carlos says to focus on your hands when you feel your losing your lucidity, so that you keep your energy.
I'm impressed, I mean, this stuff is hard to practice in the waking world, I have no idea how you do it in the dream world. Nice stuff though.
I'll be working on my dream memory.
Maybe working one aspect of your dream memory will enhance the other.
By remembering your dreams when your awake, maybe the dreaming memory will be enhanced enough to remember your waking self information.

---

Thanks for posting.

Check this out: apply dream battle principles to waking life. You can see how some people try to steal energy, others share it, others give too much away, some draw it from nature, some from other people.

Everyone wants your attention, especially when you have a lot of energy.

So far, no one has attempted to disprove this.

Quote:

---

Dreamer vs. Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being
- The rules are basically the same for fighting dreamer vs. dreamer, but generally inter-dimensional beings are more aware of the dream plane, especially whether they are in someone else's dream, their dream, a mix of the two, or in the Outer World. They may or may not have a physical body in their home dimension. They may have been living on the dream plane for centuries, or untold millennia, therefore can be extremely powerful.

---

Cool, I finally figuired out the quote tags. And holy moly, there is a spell checker in the advanced part, man, I am glad to find that thing. LOL




My uncle was always a rather,,,, impatient man. A couple of months after he passed he showed up in my dream, doing all sorts of things so as to make me aware I was dreaming. I wasn't catching on.

So, he upped the ante a bit. He turned into a giant Easter Island head, sprouted arms and legs, picked me up, and at this point, I knew I was dreaming, was lucid, and still couldn't get outta those giant stone hands of his.

I continued to struggle, and I began to panic, he increased my unease by bringing me close to his giant stone Easter Island face. He told me to remember to tell his spouse and my mother that he was okay now, and not to worry about him anymore he told me to repeat what he had said, I did.

I told my mom and his spouse what he said. That was for dang sure, I don't particularly wanna be visited by my uncle again.

Great post! A lot of what you have said echoes my own personal sentiments. I've found that the attention thing when fighting something which isn't a DC is particularly true. I think this is where being a fan of cartoon style violence comes into play for me. I mean, if you're going into a fight, the last thing you're going to expect to see is an anvil dropping on your head Wile Coyote style.

And the weaknesses thing really resounded with me. I was once fighting something which was throwing fireballs at me, when it occurred to me that ice would cancel out fire. So I started putting up sheets of ice in front of me and stopping the fireballs dead.

I think anyone interested in being able to fight well in the dream world would be well advised to read this post! Nice work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkoMarco

Cool, I finally figuired out the quote tags. And holy moly, there is a spell checker in the advanced part, man, I am glad to find that thing. LOL




My uncle was always a rather,,,, impatient man. A couple of months after he passed he showed up in my dream, doing all sorts of things so as to make me aware I was dreaming. I wasn't catching on.

So, he upped the ante a bit. He turned into a giant Easter Island head, sprouted arms and legs, picked me up, and at this point, I knew I was dreaming, was lucid, and still couldn't get outta those giant stone hands of his.

I continued to struggle, and I began to panic, he increased my unease by bringing me close to his giant stone Easter Island face. He told me to remember to tell his spouse and my mother that he was okay now, and not to worry about him anymore he told me to repeat what he had said, I did.

I told my mom and his spouse what he said. That was for dang sure, I don't particularly wanna be visited by my uncle again.

---

He probably morphed to make you remember the dream more. I have giant stone Easter Island sculptures embedded in the wall of the City of Nowhere on the other side of the Moon. They shoot lasers out of their eye sockets at enemies. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterHyde

Great post! A lot of what you have said echoes my own personal sentiments. I've found that the attention thing when fighting something which isn't a DC is particularly true. I think this is where being a fan of cartoon style violence comes into play for me. I mean, if you're going into a fight, the last thing you're going to expect to see is an anvil dropping on your head Wile Coyote style.

And the weaknesses thing really resounded with me. I was once fighting something which was throwing fireballs at me, when it occurred to me that ice would cancel out fire. So I started putting up sheets of ice in front of me and stopping the fireballs dead.

I think anyone interested in being able to fight well in the dream world would be well advised to read this post! Nice work.

---

Thanks man. Archetypes such as fire water, whatever are actually elementary, and advanced dream warriors can go beyond this. But, this is beyond my current skill. Vegeta told me that in a dream, but I haven't posted it it yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Archetypes such as fire water, whatever are actually elementary, and advanced dream warriors can go beyond this. But, this is beyond my current skill. Vegeta told me that in a dream, but I haven't posted it it yet.

---

I've never actually fought in a dream, but could you please give some examples? You seem to be quite the experienced dreamer, but yet you said that is beyond your current skill?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

[xample: Tooth moves to attack me in slow motion, with a giant zombie fist. I am fascinated yet disgusted with the detail of the zombie fist. I can see the rotting flesh, and even maggots crawling in it. I want to puke. BAM! He socks me right in the forehead.

---

Really? Cause, to me it just looks like he distracted you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Und3rP4rr

I've never actually fought in a dream, but could you please give some examples? You seem to be quite the experienced dreamer, but yet you said that is beyond your current skill?

---

Instead I will give you the names of people who like to battle in dreams, and you can read their DJ's: Raven Knight, Tigress AKA WarriorTiger, Loaf, Mzzkc, Oneironaut

You will begin to see patterns after awhile.

Moving beyond the elemental archetypes to perceiving and battling with only pure energy is beyond my current skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supernova

Really? Cause, to me it just looks like he distracted you.

---

In this scenario, he did distract me, yes. So, I am not really sure what your question is.

Do you actually get attacked that often in dreams? I have had lots of lucid dreams and have never met anything that I didn't think was myself, never mind being attacked by it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Instead I will give you the names of people who like to battle in dreams, and you can read their DJ's: Raven Knight, Tigress AKA WarriorTiger, Loaf, Mzzkc, Oneironaut

You will begin to see patterns after awhile.

Moving beyond the elemental archetypes to perceiving and battling with only pure energy is beyond my current skill.

---

Wow. I know what I am going to do next time I'm lucid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tranquil Toad

Do you actually get attacked that often in dreams? I have had lots of lucid dreams and have never met anything that I didn't think was myself, never mind being attacked by it.

---

I have been attacked in dreams ever since I was a child. I was forced to fight. I had nightmares 2 or 3 times a week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Und3rP4rr

Wow. I know what I am going to do next time I'm lucid.

---

Man, if you can battle perceiving pure energy, that would be awesome. Good luck.

Great! I recognize lots of what you say in my own experience. And lately I have also been frequently attacked. When I saw Inception I thought this whole story of the other dreamer's DC's attacking you was just bulshit because in my dreams the only demons I encountered were my own. But lately I've been attacked a lot and I start feeling it's not coming from myself but really from others. Our own demons are our egos fighting back - because we're aware and mindful in a dream, this is a direct attack to the ego, so he sends out his armies. Now the same happens with others ego's, because I am entering their dreams with a more clear intent and their ego, subconsciously reacts like an immune system. Not always, it depends how open the dreamer is to my presence, if it is a 50/50 shared dream or his/her own dream and how much fear or love is feeling on that moment, but it happens, so it's good to have some skills to fight back. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I have been attacked in dreams ever since I was a child. I was forced to fight. I had nightmares 2 or 3 times a week.

---

Yee, and i was having lots of fights during my dreams when i was a child and teeny but not anymore. I fought mainly aliens and daemons :) My last fight in a dream i can recall was a fight against some bad vampires who wanted to steal my powers :) That was fun. No remorse for such suckers hahahahaha Ive cut them to pieces with razor blade.

Thanks for finally answering my question!!:D I read a book called conversations with god that blew my mind. It talks about how all thought is energy and matter is actually just slowed down energy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by immaia

Great! I recognize lots of what you say in my own experience. And lately I have also been frequently attacked. When I saw Inception I thought this whole story of the other dreamer's DC's attacking you was just bulshit because in my dreams the only demons I encountered were my own. But lately I've been attacked a lot and I start feeling it's not coming from myself but really from others. Our own demons are our egos fighting back - because we're aware and mindful in a dream, this is a direct attack to the ego, so he sends out his armies. Now the same happens with others ego's, because I am entering their dreams with a more clear intent and their ego, subconsciously reacts like an immune system. Not always, it depends how open the dreamer is to my presence, if it is a 50/50 shared dream or his/her own dream and how much fear or love is feeling on that moment, but it happens, so it's good to have some skills to fight back. Thanks.

---

I tried to like "inception", I just felt like there was way too much shooting and not enough philosophy. And if they were going to have violence,,,,why the retarded shooting scenes???? Why not some WakingNomad fighting dream sequences:goodidea:

I know the DC is a main culprit in dreams, but, I also think that interaction with "other" beings, those we might deam entities is a common occurance.

Well, I'm still digesting this whole story of beings in the dream plane that are not from our our minds and egos. I obviously accept the possibility, it's just that I never really thought about it and am still exploring it.

Thank you. I've been looking for information like this recently, and have been having some difficulties. My dream experiences have echoed some of the "fringe-ier" aspects of Lucid Dreaming Theory, and what I've discovered is that there is just a small fraction of LD'ers consciously train in their dream abilities and actively search out battles with negative energies and malicious inter dimensional beings. They're often in our dreams and in hiding, only preferring to reveal themselves only when necessary... This is also why those who might have a higher lucid awareness, or can attain lucidity on a consistent nightly basis are attacked... which is a fear-mongering mechanism. Those that are more prone to recognize those invasions are also more prone to be fucked with by said malicious beings. The key here is distractions and wasted time. Misfocused energy. Like always having sex when you become lucid instead of actively learning or achieving something.

I feel like I've been having a SECOND awakening to LDing... at first I was just blown away by what I thought to be the sheer power of own mind, but I've been experiencing what I can only describe as the dream space as a shared reality, with actual viable threats to it. There are lots of dreamers, fewer LD'ers, and then fewer that are Dream Warriors who harness their powers for the good of the dreaming.

A good rule of thumb to expose the invasive beings vs. your created DC's is to shout "all thought forms must now disappear" which would leave those masquerading shape shifting bastards for you to dispose of.

Are there any other threads or internet sites that reflect the types of ideas in this thread? I've awoken to my Warrior Life and need all the support I can get.

So Nomad? This may be the reason you can't do it but, how would pure energy be possible. Wouldnt you dilute the energy with you own thoughts? And very good post.

How can you for sure know the difference between a DC, Dreamer, and Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

How can you for sure know the difference between a DC, Dreamer, and Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being?

---

Becuase every being has a different "feel" to them kinda like the force in star wars. So when you meet a dreamer, you can feel that he/she is a dreamer, and not just a DC.

I mentioned earlier that if you shout to the dream "all thought forms must now disappear" everything in the dream created from your mind (DCs included) will vanish, just leaving any other Dreamers or various beings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Frapo

I mentioned earlier that if you shout to the dream "all thought forms must now disappear" everything in the dream created from your mind (DCs included) will vanish, just leaving any other Dreamers or various beings.

---

Another trick is to ignore Dcs... the ones that vanish are the projection from your mind. Most DCs talk gibberish anyway

So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Frapo

Thank you. I've been looking for information like this recently, and have been having some difficulties. My dream experiences have echoed some of the "fringe-ier" aspects of Lucid Dreaming Theory, and what I've discovered is that there is just a small fraction of LD'ers consciously train in their dream abilities and actively search out battles with negative energies and malicious inter dimensional beings. They're often in our dreams and in hiding, only preferring to reveal themselves only when necessary... This is also why those who might have a higher lucid awareness, or can attain lucidity on a consistent nightly basis are attacked... which is a fear-mongering mechanism. Those that are more prone to recognize those invasions are also more prone to be fucked with by said malicious beings. The key here is distractions and wasted time. Misfocused energy. Like always having sex when you become lucid instead of actively learning or achieving something.

I feel like I've been having a SECOND awakening to LDing... at first I was just blown away by what I thought to be the sheer power of own mind, but I've been experiencing what I can only describe as the dream space as a shared reality, with actual viable threats to it. There are lots of dreamers, fewer LD'ers, and then fewer that are Dream Warriors who harness their powers for the good of the dreaming.

A good rule of thumb to expose the invasive beings vs. your created DC's is to shout "all thought forms must now disappear" which would leave those masquerading shape shifting bastards for you to dispose of.

Are there any other threads or internet sites that reflect the types of ideas in this thread? I've awoken to my Warrior Life and need all the support I can get.

---

I'll PM you when I have more time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebrah

So Nomad? This may be the reason you can't do it but, how would pure energy be possible. Wouldnt you dilute the energy with you own thoughts? And very good post.

---

I am not sure what you are referring to by "it" here. Anyway, thoughts are energy. Energy can never be diluted because everything is energy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

How can you for sure know the difference between a DC, Dreamer, and Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jervilan

Becuase every being has a different "feel" to them kinda like the force in star wars. So when you meet a dreamer, you can feel that he/she is a dreamer, and not just a DC.

---

Yes. And dreamers really are interdimensional beings. But, I use those labels to mean a Dreamer is someone in the physical plane of earth, and Interdimensional Being is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?

---

Trust me, when you get the feeling that this isn't just another DC, you will not have any doubt, at least i don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?

---

Please understand that any answer you get to this question is susceptible to bias, misinterpretation or irrationality (whether the answer is in favor of the paranormal or not). When asking such a huge question as this - which will have implications on whether you either believe in a non-existent phenomenon or disbelieve in completely true phenomenon - do not hinge such crucial beliefs on the words of any one person, and take some time to actually research whatever answers you are given.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain Frapo

I mentioned earlier that if you shout to the dream "all thought forms must now disappear" everything in the dream created from your mind (DCs included) will vanish, just leaving any other Dreamers or various beings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Man of Shred

Another trick is to ignore Dcs... the ones that vanish are the projection from your mind. Most DCs talk gibberish anyway

---

---

I have to ask how you both know this? This completely ignores the fact that we can't always get our subconscious to do what we want. (For instance; failing reality checks, while obviously dreaming.) So I would like to know how you are so sure that just requesting "all thought forms to disappear" or simply ignoring DC's means that anyone left over is an actual conscious entity, outside of yourself (a bold claim, in and of itself).

How easy is it to ignore a fly that's buzzing around you? You can try and try, but you are still going to be aware of that fly (consciously or subconsciously), so not being able to completely ignore something (even when trying) is not indicative of anything other than that you haven't been able to completely ignore it. It is the same as a song that gets stuck in your head, even after you've tried to forget it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Please understand that any answer you get to this question is susceptible to bias, misinterpretation or irrationality (whether the answer is in favor of the paranormal or not). When asking such a huge question as this - which will have implications on whether you either believe in a non-existent phenomenon or disbelieve in completely true phenomenon - do not hinge such crucial beliefs on the words of any one person, and take some time to actually research whatever answers you are given.



I have to ask how you both know this? This completely ignores the fact that we can't always get our subconscious to do what we want. (For instance; failing reality checks, while obviously dreaming.) So I would like to know how you are so sure that just requesting "all thought forms to disappear" or simply ignoring DC's means that anyone left over is an actual conscious entity, outside of yourself (a bold claim, in and of itself).

How easy is it to ignore a fly that's buzzing around you? You can try and try, but you are still going to be aware of that fly (consciously or subconsciously), so not being able to completely ignore something (even when trying) is not indicative of anything other than that you haven't been able to completely ignore it. It is the same as a song that gets stuck in your head, even after you've tried to forget it.

---

If all DC's/thought forms are manifestations of your mind, then they must require your attention to exist. Instead of ignoring, we should focus on something else, really.

For example, if you replace a recurring thought in your head, like an annoying catchy song, like

IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL, SMALL WORLD!

with another song, it will make the first one go away.

Now, take your fly example. Flies are entities separate from yourself. Ignoring a fly stuck in the same room with you will not make it go away, because it's not one of your thoughts, it's real.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

If all DC's/thought forms are manifestations of your mind, then they must require your attention to exist. Instead of ignoring, we should focus on something else, really.

---

Not true. Conscious thought requires your attention to exist. Subconscious thought does not. The dream is an amalgamation of subconscious thoughts, and even if you are not paying attention to them, they are just as able to appear and/or persist. How do you think dream content even shows up, in the first place? If I was dreaming that I sitting on a curb, just minding my own business, and a ball rolls by me, does it mean that I was consciously aware of the ball, before it rolled by? No. It means that, somewhere in my subconscious, that ball was being related to this scene, and it made itself visible. To know anything about mental schemas (as Stephen LaBerge would tell you, himself) is to know that schemas for other things/events/concepts exist in your subconscious, even when your mind is on something else. Much like LaBerge, I believe that individual dream concepts have more to do with unconscious schemas than they do with conscious thought.

If I say the word "Taxi," you think about a taxi. But, unknowingly, you also think about other related concepts to "Taxi" such as the color yellow; rubber (wheels), gasoline (fuel), glass (windows); roads; passengers; etc. The mind does this, so that you can be more able to use/recall such related concepts quickly. In the context of a dream, seeing a Taxi is likely to make so many other things happen in the dream. You might loose your wallet (relating Taxi to having to pay/loose money). You might find your next scene change to be to New York (relating Taxi to a place that you know is abundant with them, like NYC). This, in my opinion - and others - is how dreams progress, and how seemingly unrelated items and scenarios are thrown into the mix with each other.

Just "not thinking" consciously about something is no guarantee that the thing will disappear. Sure, it may fall out of sight, momentarily, but any stray thought (even about something that you don't realize is related) could bring it back within seconds. It doesn't "go" anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

For example, if you replace a recurring thought in your head, like an annoying catchy song, like

IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL, SMALL WORLD!

with another song, it will make the first one go away.

---

I wish it were that simple, but it's not. The act of replacing a song in your head (or, should I say, "my" head) is much less conscious than that. I can't just 'think about another song' and have the first song just automatically goes away. I have to be so immersed in something else that even my subconscious has completely moved on (or, as Dr. LaBerge would say; until the schemas have been deactivated), which doesn't usually happen when I'm trying to ignore it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Now, take your fly example. Flies are entities separate from yourself. Ignoring a fly stuck in the same room with you will not make it go away, because it's not one of your thoughts, it's real.

---

I'm not talking about making the actual fly go away. I'm talking about making your awareness of the fly go away. If it's something that is truly bothering you, to the point where you wish it would just go away, then ignoring it isn't going to just make you unaware that the fly is there. Since a fly is so harmless, let me use another example: If you have to share a cell with someone you really don't like - to the point where their mere presence fills you with disgust, or you perceive them as some sort of personal threat - then just 'trying to ignore them' isn't going to make you completely and totally unaware that they are there, even if you turn your back to them and try to forget. You can act like they aren't there, but you can't actually, down the depths of your mind, believe that they are not there.

Now, again, I'm not saying that some of the DC's won't disappear, if you try to ignore them, but I'm saying that it is in no way guaranteed. I'm also saying that a few lingering DC's is no reason to adopt the bold belief that "this means that they are conscious entities, which exist outside of your mind" as if it is a fact. How about reality checks? If I'm ignoring the solidity of my palm, why would I not be able to push my finger through it? The easy answer is that there are many different variables that determine whether or not we can manipulate our subconscious. This is true for defying gravity, phasing through solid objects, or trying to get annoying DC's to leave us alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Not true. Conscious thought requires your attention to exist. Subconscious thought does not. The dream is an amalgamation of subconscious thoughts, and even if you are not paying attention to them, they are just as able to appear and/or persist. How do you think dream content even shows up, in the first place? If I was dreaming that I sitting on a curb, just minding my own business, and a ball rolls by me, does it mean that I was consciously aware of the ball, before it rolled by? No. It means that, somewhere in my subconscious, that ball was being related to this scene, and it made itself visible. To know anything about mental schemas (as Stephen LaBerge would tell you, himself) is to know that schemas for other things/events/concepts exist in your subconscious, even when your mind is on something else.

If I say the word "Taxi," you think about a taxi. But, unknowingly, you also think about other related concepts to "Taxi" such as the color yellow; rubber (wheels), gasoline (fuel), glass (windows); roads; passengers; etc. The mind does this, so that you can be more able to use/recall such related concepts quickly. In the context of a dream, seeing a Taxi is likely to make so many other things happen in the dream. You might loose your wallet (relating Taxi to having to pay/loose money). You might find your next scene change to be to New York (relating Taxi to a place that you know is abundant with them, like NYC). This, in my opinion - and others - is how dreams progress, and how seemingly unrelated items and scenarios are thrown into the mix with each other.

Just "not thinking" consciously about something is no guarantee that the thing will disappear. Sure, it may fall out of sight, momentarily, but any stray thought (even about something that you don't realize is related) could bring it back within seconds. It doesn't "go" anywhere.



I wish it were that simple, but it's not. The act of replacing a song in your head (or, should I say, "my" head) is much less conscious than that. I can't just 'think about another song' and have the first song just automatically goes away. I have to be so immersed in something else that even my subconscious has completely moved on (or, as Dr. LaBerge would say; until the schemas have been deactivated), which doesn't usually happen when I'm trying to ignore it.



I'm not talking about making the actual fly go away. I'm talking about making your awareness of the fly go away. If it's something that is truly bothering you, to the point where you wish it would just go away, then ignoring it isn't going to just make you unaware that the fly is there. Since a fly is so harmless, let me use another example: If you have to share a cell with someone you really don't like - to the point where their mere presence fills you with disgust - then just 'trying to ignore them' isn't going to make you completely and totally unaware that they are there. You can act like they aren't there, but you can't actually, down the depths of your mind, believe that they are not there.

---

Yes. That is why I said try focusing on something else rather than ignoring the DC or whatever.

Try this in a dream:

Find a DC who says they are real, and command them to prove it to you.

dreamics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Try this in a dream:

Find a DC who says they are real, and command them to prove it to you.

---

What type(s) of responses from said DC would you accept as proof that it is a real entity?

I'm really interested in this topic and would like as much info as i can get. If there are any other sites id appreciate a link.

And id also appreciate if you guys would chime in on my Recurring nigtmare thread, it kinda explains why im so interested

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

What type(s) of responses from said DC would you accept as proof that it is a real entity?

---

What I would accept as proof is unimportant. What you accept as proof is what matters. But, what made me think other people in my dream were not DC's was firstly having confirmed shared dreams with Raven. I obviously had to accept the fact that she is real. This is how I proved shared dreaming to myself: we made plans to meet in dreams. We would write our dreams before speaking to the other or reading their DJ. The dreams are sometimes similar, and sometimes exactly the same.

After meeting Raven Knight on DV and so many confirmed shared dreams, I could not deny the existence of mutual dreaming.

I met other characters in dreams who I assumed were dream characters, but they stood out, as a real person would amongst a thousand cardboard cut outs.

Then, I met Selene.

She kept coming into my dreams, and would persist even when I would focus on something else, or tell her she is a dream character, go away. She attacked me, and with every clash of our weapons, she said, 'I'M REAL I'M REAL I'M REAL."

I had conversations with her, and she told me things I would've never thought of.

Also, there was another entity, Spike, that Raven and I kept dreaming with. He's not my DC, and he's not Raven's. He is sentient and makes his own decisions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I wish it were that simple, but it's not. The act of replacing a song in your head (or, should I say, "my" head) is much less conscious than that. I can't just 'think about another song' and have the first song just automatically goes away. I have to be so immersed in something else that even my subconscious has completely moved on (or, as Dr. LaBerge would say; until the schemas have been deactivated), which doesn't usually happen when I'm trying to ignore it.

---

You can't try to ignore a thought. Thats like saying don't think about an elephant. What do you think about? An elephant. The thought will chase all over hell and back. You have to focus on something else to make it go away. Like when you meditate you focus on something like your breathing or a mantra.

A very interesting post. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I felt so proud knowing that I had been in the astral plane, as you called it, since i had known it wasn't normal.

I also like how you said that attention is a form of energy, I've never thought about it like that. But i guess it is possible to steal energy from things, even if that's attention.

And, according to that post, I like a push/pull method of fighting. Basically, using a small portion of your energy to change your direction and cause the energy you just used to move towards me to be redirected to my advantage. Reading that over, it seems so obvious what I'm doing, yet I'm doing it without even noticing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

What I would accept as proof is unimportant. What you accept as proof is what matters.

---

Not true. When you are telling people what to think about the boundaries of reality (as far as whether or not an imaginary entity is an actual, conscious being), it is very important. I understand your idea of "well, if it's true enough to you, then maybe you should treat it as an actual thing." Hell, I would even agree with an "In my opinion, these are conscious beings, and you should treat them as such." But, when newbies come to this site, and ask questions about dreaming and the dream state, I find it kind of...what's the word...'indulgent' (I suppose) to be telling them such things as if they were factually sound. I strongly believe that there is a disconnect between the "well, if it's real to you, then maybe you should run with it" ideology that you seem to believe, and the "yes, these phenomena are objectively real (and quantifiable as actual, conscious interactions between beings)" way that you are promoting it. The fact that you don't even take the care to let newbies know that this is your opinion, and your interpretation of your own experiences is, I think, dangerous. That is why I asked you the question; because I believe my "are you a conscious entity?" test would be a little harder to pass than yours. I was (am) genuinely curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

But, what made me think other people in my dream were not DC's was firstly having confirmed shared dreams with Raven. I obviously had to accept the fact that she is real. This is how I proved shared dreaming to myself: we made plans to meet in dreams. We would write our dreams before speaking to the other or reading their DJ. The dreams are sometimes similar, and sometimes exactly the same.

---

As I asked you in your dream journal, what exactly are you allowed to discuss with the other dreamer, beforehand? I've learned to notice patterns in my own dreams, that they often have something to do with recent dreams of my own, or dream journal entries that I have recently read. Not that there is really any way to prohibit the two of you (or others) from talking to each other before writing your journals, but I would think it really interesting if the two of you sent your dream journals entries to an impartial 3rd party, before posting them to your online journals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I met other characters in dreams who I assumed were dream characters, but they stood out, as a real person would amongst a thousand cardboard cut outs.

---

'Stood out' how? In my dreams, no two DCs really ever "feel" alike, unless they are just vague strangers, whom I don't really interact with. So, in a sense, they each "stand out", for their own reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Then, I met Selene.

She kept coming into my dreams, and would persist even when I would focus on something else, or tell her she is a dream character, go away. She attacked me, and with every clash of our weapons, she said, 'I'M REAL I'M REAL I'M REAL."

---

After even one encounter, her being so vehement about telling you that she was real is a very likely reason why she continued to do so, in subsequent dreams. This is how recurring dreams work. Once an idea gains steam, it often manifests itself, in that image, over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I had conversations with her, and she told me things I would've never thought of.

---

The mind does this often, does it not? There is a large difference between our conscious train of thought and our subconscious train of thought. Our subconscious mind takes in stimuli in its "rawest" state. Our conscious minds filter it through our biases, our latent perceptions and our ignorance. The fact that a DC told something you "never would have thought of" is more accurately stated as the DC telling you something you "never would have consciously thought of," and then you are still left making the call of whether this was because you just consciously didn't see it from that perspective (which is, by basic psychology, both possible and common), or because this DC is another conscious entity, which you are communicating through metaphysical means (which, while considerable, has very little empirical backing).

I believe that people should be very careful when making these sort of judgments, as it has a fundamental bearing on whether that person is mentally able to separate fact from fiction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Also, there was another entity, Spike, that Raven and I kept dreaming with. He's not my DC, and he's not Raven's. He is sentient and makes his own decisions.

---

How do you know this? A staple of dreaming is that our subconscious mind is controlling the DC's, not our conscious ones. So of course they are going to often show their own personalities, and make their own decisions. The brain is aware of many other possible decisions you could make, and one of these is likely to manifest itself in the DC's behavior, even if it's not something that you would have consciously thought of. Sure, sometimes it is possible to control them, just like sometimes it's possible to fly with perfect control. And, of course, sometimes it's not. The ability not to be able to control a DC is (unless proven otherwise) no different than having difficulty flying in one dream and not in another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saltyseedog

You can't try to ignore a thought. Thats like saying don't think about an elephant. What do you think about? An elephant. The thought will chase all over hell and back. You have to focus on something else to make it go away. Like when you meditate you focus on something like your breathing or a mantra.

---

That's pretty much what I said. I guess you got hung up on it because I said "trying to forget?" I said that because it was being presented as a way to make a DC go away. Even if you are trying to focus on something else, you are still 'trying' to forget that other thing, if you are using it as a tactic for ridding yourself of a troublesome DC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Not true. When you are telling people what to think about the boundaries of reality (as far as whether or not an imaginary entity is an actual, conscious being), it is very important. I understand your idea of "well, if it's true enough to you, then maybe you should treat it as an actual thing." Hell, I would even agree with an "In my opinion, these are conscious beings, and you should treat them as such." But, when newbies come to this site, and ask questions about dreaming and the dream state, I find it kind of...what's the word...'indulgent' (I suppose) to be telling them such things as if they were factually sound. I strongly believe that there is a disconnect between the "well, if it's real to you, then maybe you should run with it" ideology that you seem to believe, and the "yes, these phenomena are objectively real (and quantifiable as actual, conscious interactions between beings)" way that you are promoting it. The fact that you don't even take the care to let newbies know that this is your opinion, and your interpretation of your own experiences is, I think, dangerous. That is why I asked you the question; because I believe my "are you a conscious entity?" test would be a little harder to pass than yours. I was (am) genuinely curious.




As I asked you in your dream journal, what exactly are you allowed to discuss with the other dreamer, beforehand? I've learned to notice patterns in my own dreams, that they often have something to do with recent dreams of my own, or dream journal entries that I have recently read. Not that there is really any way to prohibit the two of you (or others) from talking to each other before writing your journals, but I would think it really interesting if the two of you sent your dream journals entries to an impartial 3rd party, before posting them to your online journals.




'Stood out' how? In my dreams, no two DCs really ever "feel" alike, unless they are just vague strangers, whom I don't really interact with. So, in a sense, they each "stand out", for their own reasons.



After even one encounter, her being so vehement about telling you that she was real is a very likely reason why she continued to do so, in subsequent dreams. This is how recurring dreams work. Once an idea gains steam, it often manifests itself, in that image, over and over.


The mind does this often, does it not? There is a large difference between our conscious train of thought and our subconscious train of thought. Our subconscious mind takes in stimuli in its "rawest" state. Our conscious minds filter it through our biases, our latent perceptions and our ignorance. The fact that a DC told something you "never would have thought of" is more accurately stated as the DC telling you something you "never would have consciously thought of," and then you are still left making the call of whether this was because you just consciously didn't see it from that perspective (which is, by basic psychology, both possible and common), or because this DC is another conscious entity, which you are communicating through metaphysical means (which, while considerable, has very little empirical backing).

I believe that people should be very careful when making these sort of judgments, as it has a fundamental bearing on whether that person is mentally able to separate fact from fiction.



How do you know this? A staple of dreaming is that our subconscious mind is controlling the DC's, not our conscious ones. So of course they are going to often show their own personalities, and make their own decisions. The brain is aware of many other possible decisions you could make, and one of these is likely to manifest itself in the DC's behavior, even if it's not something that you would have consciously thought of. Sure, sometimes it is possible to control them, just like sometimes it's possible to fly with perfect control. And, of course, sometimes it's not. The ability not to be able to control a DC is (unless proven otherwise) no different than having difficulty flying in one dream and not in another.



That's pretty much what I said. I guess you got hung up on it because I said "trying to forget?" I said that because it was being presented as a way to make a DC go away. Even if you are trying to focus on something else, you are still 'trying' to forget that other thing, if you are using it as a tactic for ridding yourself of a troublesome DC.

---

Thanks for taking the time to write all this.

I don't have time for a complete response, but as far as your question about what we discuss beforehand. (Sorry I missed your comment in my DJ.)

Sometimes we discuss simply a place to meet. Sometimes we decide something specific to do. Many times we discuss nothing, and have shared dreams anyway. I agree sending our DJ's to a third party is a good idea. The problem with that is this: it would still be unscientific, based on the honor system. Who is to say, for example if Raven and I sent our DJ entries to you, that we did not collude upon waking?

The only way to really make this scientific would be to isolate the dreamers in a sleep lab, and not let them communicate in waking life, then have a third party scientist assign them to meet up in dreams.

Raven and I have both interacted with Spike in dreams, and he does the same thing in both our dreams.

Please ask your DC's if they are a conscious entity, and to prove it to you, especially ones that seem more intelligent or independent than others.

Nice info.

I'd have to agree that there is an inner and outer world and your description about the planes and types of entities seems mostly accurate. However, I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eonnn

Nice info.

I'd have to agree that there is an inner and outer world and your description about the planes and types of entities seems mostly accurate. However, I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

---

Thoughts are energy, but so is everything.

As far as stealing energy, here is an example. Someone starts arguing with you out of the blue. You argue back. They use circular logic and ad hominem attacks, yet you still try to be logical and rational. After a while, you start to get really pissed off. After the argument, you feel depleted and grouchy, but you were just in a good mood ten minutes ago.

That's good that you don't get tired from dream battling.

The only way to prove shared dreaming to Oneironaut is to enter Oneironaut's dream and tell him what happened before he posts his dream journal. He's the only one who would know that you didn't collude beforehand and he would know for sure that you weren't just influenced and had coincidentally similar dreams. Maybe shared dreaming will have to be proven individually to each separate person.

I don't know about separate entities, as they can't be empirically proven and there's no way to really know for sure. But with shared dreaming, it can be proven and should be, if it's real.

Oneironaut's a really intelligent guy and one of, if not the most rational poster on the forum. I think proving SDing to him would be a huge shot in the arm for shared dreaming and really, the only way to prove it to him for sure would be to send him his dreams before he posts them. Fair enough? Nomad, I really think you should share a dream with him to back up what you're saying. If he experiences it for himself over a large enough sample period (maybe 10 dreams would be enough to eliminate any chance of coincidence?) I'm sure he'll become a supporter of it and search for rational explanations.

I'd do it myself, but I still don't know how to LD yet.

PS: I'm trying this experiment with a few other dreamers on the forum. I'll let you guys know my results, as I'm having four people try to enter my dreams and see if any of them match up with mine.

As for ignoring dream characters to see if they are real, it's obviously not a foolproof method. Because after you ignore, you have check to see if they're still there, which is the opposite of ignoring them. (Well, you don't have to check, and it's best if you don't, but to verify a suspect dreamer, it's hard not to) But ignoring annoying DCs is an invaluable tool for lucid dreamers. It lets you avoid unnecessary distractions and get on with what you really want to do. Once you get the hang of doing this, you know how it works and what to expect. Having knowledge of how this works, when you encounter a DC that won't go away despite your efforts, then you have to admit that's some suspect behavior. Not definite proof, but you have to start somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eonnn

I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?

---

I don't like the energy analogy for dream combat. That term gets thrown around too loosely. It's more like each dreamer has a finite amount of attention, and dream combat involves tying to tie up as much of the other person's attention as possible.

When I was encountering Gimpy, who Nomad calls Tooth, I was running away a lot. At one point I ran and jumped into some crazy white water rapids, and Gimpy said "Nice one!". He followed me in and I lost him after that. It wasn't until later that I understood that the intense white water and currents overwhelmed his senses. So much that he wasn't able to focus on me anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Cusp

When I was encountering Gimpy, who Nomad calls Tooth, I was running away a lot. At one point I ran and jumped into some crazy white water rapids, and Gimpy said "Nice one!". He followed me in and I lost him after that. It wasn't until later that I understood that the intense white water and currents overwhelmed his senses. So much that he wasn't able to focus on me anymore.

---

Exactly... being lucid is like a mushroom trip almost... in that it's easy to get lost in detail and forget everything instead of staying focused. Staying focused takes true awareness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I don't like the energy analogy for dream combat. That term gets thrown around too loosely. It's more like each dreamer has a finite amount of attention, and dream combat involves tying to tie up as much of the other person's attention as possible.

---

I have to agree with that too. In dreams, I never get tired in or after a fight like Eonnn. Landing a blow causes an opponent to pay attention to the pain, and the more you stagger and attack the them, the more attention goes to their pain. After a while, the can't pay attention to anything else except for the pain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GMoney

The only way to prove shared dreaming to Oneironaut is to enter Oneironaut's dream and tell him what happened before he posts his dream journal. He's the only one who would know that you didn't collude beforehand and he would know for sure that you weren't just influenced and had coincidentally similar dreams. Maybe shared dreaming will have to be proven individually to each separate person.

I don't know about separate entities, as they can't be empirically proven and there's no way to really know for sure. But with shared dreaming, it can be proven and should be, if it's real.

Oneironaut's a really intelligent guy and one of, if not the most rational poster on the forum. I think proving SDing to him would be a huge shot in the arm for shared dreaming and really, the only way to prove it to him for sure would be to send him his dreams before he posts them. Fair enough? Nomad, I really think you should share a dream with him to back up what you're saying. If he experiences it for himself over a large enough sample period (maybe 10 dreams would be enough to eliminate any chance of coincidence?) I'm sure he'll become a supporter of it and search for rational explanations.

I'd do it myself, but I still don't know how to LD yet.

PS: I'm trying this experiment with a few other dreamers on the forum. I'll let you guys know my results, as I'm having four people try to enter my dreams and see if any of them match up with mine.

---

That may not be the only way to convince him. I agree that Oneironaut is a very rational intelligent person, though. On the other hand, I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

The best way for people to be convinced of shared dreaming is for them to do it themselves. Shared dreams are often confirmed randomly through two non-lucid dreamers initially without setting intent.

One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

***

When Raven and I first started doing confirmed shared dreaming, someone asked us to go into his dream and make him lucid. (About 30 or 40 people have asked us to do this since then.) It didn't work. Raven and I both remembered the dream, but he did not remember anything. In the dream, he kept insisting it was waking life, and asking for a drink of water. Even Walms, who has amazing dream recall, did not remember our first shared dream. I battled him while Raven watched. Raven and I both remembered the dream. It's in the first shared dreaming DJ. Walms did not, even though his recall is excellent, and he remembers many dreams every night, often being lucid.

Walms and I have never really sync'ed up really well so that the dreams match as well as they do with Raven and I, or others. So, just because Oneironaut and I are both proficient lucid dreamers, it does not mean that we could easily have a confirmed shared dream. The most important dream skill is Recall, then Lucidity, then Control.

If anyone wants to find out for themselves if shared dreaming is real, they should pick a partner (or partners) who's DJ they love reading, and try to meet up with that person at a certain place in dreams.

That being said.... I had a dream of Oneironaut.

Hey, I had a dream once, after my kitten died, that she visited me and told me that she was always with me. Was it really her, or just a thing in my mind? It was in such detail. I remember it all. (It's in my Dream Journal) What do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

---

Why not?? If what you're saying is true, it's incredibly radical and a major breakthrough in modern science. If you don't want to become famous/rich for discovering something potentially useful and universal, I'm not sure what to say. If you really can share dreams, why don't you do it with the people who don't believe you? Why would you rather argue over theories than actually go into their dreams and prove them wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

---

Why is that? There's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. So you're trying to tell me that if you try to have a shared dream you can't, but if you don't try it will happen naturally? That makes no sense whatsoever. Why can Raven remember your shared dreams but Walms/Hukif can't? If shared dreaming is real it has to be universal. You can't share dreams with some people but not others - it's everyone or no one.

You consistently decline challenges to prove your point and avoid actually providing evidence for what you're claiming. If you were arguing something impossible or invisible, I would understand why. But you're advocating a viewpoint that can be easily proven!! Why are you hiding and evading any rational explanations? If you're not going to back up your statements when you (supposedly) have the ability to, you need to stop trying to get others to believe what you're saying. Provide evidence or stop talking about it.

I like the conflicting ideas presented in this thread :D. Was the dream character the subconscious or another entity? How could you ever possibly know if it is another entity? If it isn't, what does it mean if your own subconscious attacks you without you even expecting any form of attack? Why would the subconscious seem to be against the dreamer?

Either way, I find any conscious dream character *whether the manifestation of your subconscious or not* really interesting!

And GMoney, Nomad doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. On this forum, we like to share our subjective experiences and encourage others to experience the same.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.

GMoney
Why not??
Because it's impossible to convince someone. They have to experience it for themselves.
If what you're saying is true, it's incredibly radical and a major breakthrough in modern science. If you don't want to become famous/rich for discovering something potentially useful and universal, I'm not sure what to say.
I am not interested in riches and fame.

If you really can share dreams, why don't you do it with the people who don't believe you?
I have. They don't remember.

Why would you rather argue over theories than actually go into their dreams and prove them wrong?
see above.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad
One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.

GMoney
Why is that?
I don't know. I have tried many times. It's nearly impossible for Raven to make me lucid when I don't want to be. Apparently Dream Recall and Lucidity are two skills people must do for themselves.

There's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. So you're trying to tell me that if you try to have a shared dream you can't, but if you don't try it will happen naturally?
No. I am saying under optimal conditions, both dreamers have some degree of mastery of the two most important dream skills.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why can Raven remember your shared dreams but Walms/Hukif can't?

I don't know. Walms and I remember each other, but not too well. I don't know who Hukif is. Raven and I shared dreams as kids, so that's one reason why it's easy for us.

If shared dreaming is real it has to be universal. You can't share dreams with some people but not others - it's everyone or no one.
Correct.

You consistently decline challenges to prove your point and avoid actually providing evidence for what you're claiming. If you were arguing something impossible or invisible, I would understand why. But you're advocating a viewpoint that can be easily proven!!

No, it can't easily be proven. You are suggesting I enter the dreams of skeptics to convince them shared dreaming is real. Raven and I tried that. I am not going to do it again. It's a waste of energy. 1) They may not remember the dream. 2) They may not recognize me. 3) I may not remember the dream. The only way to prove scientifically that shared dreaming is real, is for two shared dreamers to go into a sleep lab where they are isolated from each other. Then, they can be given a place to meet up in dreams by a third party, and write their dreams down the next morning.

However, there are only about six sleep labs on the continent of North America. I actually have tried to contact Stephen Laberge, and various sleep and dream scientists. They are all either flaky, or don't return my calls or emails. Mainstream Western science is uninterested in shared dreaming.

Why are you hiding and evading any rational explanations?
Rational explanation for what? Shared dreaming? Here's the explanation. The Dream Plane is another plane of existence, greater than the meeting of minds. Our dream bodies go there when we dream.

If you're not going to back up your statements when you (supposedly) have the ability to, you need to stop trying to get others to believe what you're saying.

I am not trying to get others to believe what I am saying. People can believe whatever they want.

Provide evidence or stop talking about it.
No.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by guitardreamer

Hey, I had a dream once, after my kitten died, that she visited me and told me that she was always with me. Was it really her, or just a thing in my mind? It was in such detail. I remember it all. (It's in my Dream Journal) What do you think?

---

I saw Raven Knight holding a black cat in our dream. Then, it leapt from her arms and transformed into a winged black panther. Later, she told me she has a black cat named Shadow.

When I became a false god, a strange Druid appeared saying he was the best friend of my Higher Self. When I merged with my Higher Self, he followed my Higher Self to me. His name is Samuel, but I call him Sarnox. I then realized that he was my dog, Sam, the only dog I ever had.

So... yes, I think that was your cat. Cats sleep a lot because they like to dream.

Wow. Nomad just won the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GMoney

Wow. Nomad just won the game.

---

Reported.

Please be civil. There is no need to insult people because of thier beliefs.

damn can't take a joke

Hukif is Walm's new username.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebrah

Reported.

Please be civil. There is no need to insult people because of thier beliefs.

---

How is that not civil? I was congratulating him for countering every one of my criticisms with a relatively rational response. We have different perspectives and I don't believe a lot of what Nomad's saying, but he's consistent and he's doing a lot of things right. I appreciate his response to my criticisms and am somewhat speechless, as I have no proper response. I don't have any solid pieces of evidence to counter what he said, so in essence he won the argument. I was alluding to this by using a common phrase/meme.

If you would prefer, I could change the post to something with the exact same meaning: Congratulations Nomad, those are solid points and I hadn't considered those before. I don't have anything to disprove what you just said so I'm going to hve to take some time to think about it before launching any more criticisms. You win this round.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GMoney

How is that not civil? I was congratulating him for countering every one of my criticisms with a relatively rational response. We have different perspectives and I don't believe a lot of what Nomad's saying, but he's consistent and he's doing a lot of things right. I appreciate his response to my criticisms and am somewhat speechless, as I have no proper response. I don't have any solid pieces of evidence to counter what he said, so in essence he won the argument. I was alluding to this by using a common phrase/meme.

If you would prefer, I could change the post to something with the exact same meaning: Congratulations Nomad, those are solid points and I hadn't considered those before. I don't have anything to disprove what you just said so I'm going to hve to take some time to think about it before launching any more criticisms. You win this round.

---

I am twisting my giant handlebar mustache in evil triumph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I am twisting my giant handlebar mustache in evil triumph.

---

Reported.

I hope the guys saying "Reported" are just joking. I havent read a single post on this thread that is worth being reported

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stryke

I hope the guys saying "Reported" are just joking. I havent read a single post on this thread that is worth being reported

---

Zebrah actually did report me... :(

You know what would fix this? We should all dream share and then shake hands :shadewink:

Nah, I think all replies to this thread that are less than 2 lines long should be reported. That and people bite in dreams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juroara

You know what would fix this? We should all dream share and then shake hands :shadewink:

---

Sounds like a plan.

And to the user formerly know as Walms yes they probably should be.

Gmoney I'm sorry I reported you I miss read what you typed. Since you had been saying we all just made up dreams and what not I thought you were referring to that as "the game".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebrah

Gmoney I'm sorry I reported you I miss read what you typed. Since you had been saying we all just made up dreams and what not I thought you were referring to that as "the game".

---

Thanks, Zebrah. Now let's put this silly feud behind us and be friends, or at least treat each other with respect. :) *extends hand for a shake*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GMoney

Thanks, Zebrah. Now let's put this silly feud behind us and be friends, or at least treat each other with respect. :) *extends hand for a shake*

---

*Shakes hand*

Now back on topic. Has anyone checked out more of the stuff Nomad wrote about? I really want to become lucid again and test some of these laws that I haven't yet experienced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juroara

You know what would fix this? We should all dream share and then shake hands :shadewink:

---

I'm so down. We should do something cooler than shake hands though... like we could all meet on a plane then have a group hug sky diving

I didn't really report anybody I was just joking. But I reported myself for not taking things seriously.

I have personally proved shared dreaming...to myself. Firstly- you have to abandon your belief system on the subject and accept that you don't know everything about the universe. Once done, then begin the trials, and find a person interested, and keep on trying. Share dream journals. My friend Jeff, whenever he's pissed off cause I don't call him, Astral Projects, and jumps into my dreams. He then tells me about it afterwards lol. If you don't believe, then you prolly won't remember the dreams where you do share a dream, cause your ego will be protecting your minds integrity. You have to be open. With that said-NEXT

Battling with pure energy. I had a semi-lucid where this Inter-dimensional Entity was blocking my creation of a door to the Akashkic Records. I got REALLY PISSED OFFED. I could actually sense his energetic interference, and the way he was removing the energy thread of my energy creating the door. I rounded on him, and he said,"OK, dreams up", and then blasted pure energy at me. Nomad, the closest thing I can say is that you feel it more than see it, and the only thing you see is a clear energy wave. Once you work with pure energy, you focus on manipulating dimensions with it and even consider energy as a dimension, rather than doing archetypes, and thus can do anything. In any case, I reflected the pulse back to him, which made me realize he wasn't a DC( DC woulda been vaporized), and he had a shocked look on his face. He then ran out of the store. In any case, this was spontaneous energy control, coming from my initial energy awareness. So it seems to control pure energy, you have to be aware of the energy underlying the archetype, and how it functions. I do a lot of energy sensing IWL, which is most likely why I could do this type of dream control. I'll have to test it out again when I become lucid again.

Back to Shared Dreaming. It works, I'm focusing on recalling dreams instead, and lucidity, because otherwise, Ill share them and only remember a few. I wish to remember all of my dreams.

I have to disagree, not believing in shared dreaming has nothing to do with the experience, my first and confirmed ones were back when I didn't believe in it, and was an atheist

I don't see how what an atheist has to do anything with it. But very interesting...Perhaps you didn't have the subconscious construction of your perceptions that comes with disbelief as others do, or were open to more to the idea than others are. Then again, I'm still learning on the subject, so thank you for enlightening me. Perhaps I will go to Akashkic and find out...all though my dream guides don't like me going there cause I always learn a bit more than I should...lol.

Well, it has to do because at the time I didn't believe in anything "supernatural", was to make the point stronger only.

Reading this thread about battle has brought a question to my mind:

2 days ago when I was in my usual lucid dreaming session, I had just started my first lucid dream of the session, stabilized it, and as I was walking through this maze-ish (not really a maze that had to be conquered, just shrubs placed in an arrangement that made it appear to be a maze) area of shrubs towards the back of a building, and out of the bushes behind me about 30 yards away, this humanoid figure covered in soot and ash and shadow and other combinations of things pitch black, with a crazy look in his eyes started running towards me, arms flailing. He appeared to be rabid, if that's even the right term. I looked at him casually and said "Be gone" completely expecting him to disappear so I could be on my way. Nothing happened. This made me angry. I shouted this time "BE GONE!" and still, nothing happened. This in turn made me focus incredibly, but he was already within attacking range. I punched him in the forehead with full force (dunno why I punched him, I could have obliterated him in many other ways, but my instinct was a forceful shot to the forehead) and he fell backwards onto the ground with a very stunned look on his face and disintegrated into black dust that then disappeared. I stood there a little puzzled for a second at how my clear-cut intent for him to go away was not met, and that I had to actually strike him down in order to get rid of him. Any idea what kind of entity tried to attack me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Reading this thread about battle has brought a question to my mind:

2 days ago when I was in my usual lucid dreaming session, I had just started my first lucid dream of the session, stabilized it, and as I was walking through this maze-ish (not really a maze that had to be conquered, just shrubs placed in an arrangement that made it appear to be a maze) area of shrubs towards the back of a building, and out of the bushes behind me about 30 yards away, this humanoid figure covered in soot and ash and shadow and other combinations of things pitch black, with a crazy look in his eyes started running towards me, arms flailing. He appeared to be rabid, if that's even the right term. I looked at him casually and said "Be gone" completely expecting him to disappear so I could be on my way. Nothing happened. This made me angry. I shouted this time "BE GONE!" and still, nothing happened. This in turn made me focus incredibly, but he was already within attacking range. I punched him in the forehead with full force (dunno why I punched him, I could have obliterated him in many other ways, but my instinct was a forceful shot to the forehead) and he fell backwards onto the ground with a very stunned look on his face and disintegrated into black dust that then disappeared. I stood there a little puzzled for a second at how my clear-cut intent for him to go away was not met, and that I had to actually strike him down in order to get rid of him. Any idea what kind of entity tried to attack me?

---

Holy shit. this was probably a demon, or shadow. they steal peoples energy and stuff. I fight them all the fucking time. they attack me in dreams. I rip them to pieces and send them through portals. they sometimes will put some of their energy in my energy body and control me. I have to force it out with my power. They fuck up my energy body. ripping it into pieces.

Well damn, I will stay on my toes. O.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

I looked at him casually and said "Be gone" completely expecting him to disappear so I could be on my way. Nothing happened. This made me angry. I shouted this time "BE GONE!" and still, nothing happened.

---

The problem here is that everything requires your attention to exist. If you're looking at him, waiting for him to go away or disappear, you're actually doing the opposite of your intent. By focusing on your opponent, you're causing him to be real. If you want them to go away, you have to ignore them. Turn your back on them them and put them out of your mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

I punched him in the forehead with full force (dunno why I punched him, I could have obliterated him in many other ways, but my instinct was a forceful shot to the forehead) ... Any idea what kind of entity tried to attack me?

---

Actually, a good old punch is way more effective and reliable than the more intricate methods of dispatching foes. It's a tried and true archetype. The more complex a method you use, the more that can go wrong.

And it sounds like just a regular dream character, especially the way it charged at you when you saw it.

This is why I like WakingNomad. He's got all these crazy ideas and yet they somehow make sense.

What if someone fired a bolt of pure energy at you with no elemental properties? Apart from evading it and taking the hit, what're your options?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fOrceez

What if someone fired a bolt of pure energy at you with no elemental properties? Apart from evading it and taking the hit, what're your options?

---

There is no pure energy I don't think. Ummmm shit I don't know for sure if that makes sense. But basically different energies have different intent behind them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saltyseedog

There is no pure energy I don't think. Ummmm shit I don't know for sure if that makes sense. But basically different energies have different intent behind them.

---

Right, sorry.
Nomad explains about using the opposite elements to nullify an attack, what I meant was if they shot a bolt of energy at you with intent to harm, but no elemental properties. How do you counter that without evading and taking the hit? Would it just be fighting fire with fire, and the hottest would win ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fOrceez

Right, sorry.
Nomad explains about using the opposite elements to nullify an attack, what I meant was if they shot a bolt of energy at you with intent to harm, but no elemental properties. How do you counter that without evading and taking the hit? Would it just be fighting fire with fire, and the hottest would win ?

---

Absorb it, let it go through you, or reflect it.

This is amazing, and helpful.
Now I know how to deal with hostile people once I get to the dream plane.

But what happens when you get hit in the dream plane?
Do you feel the pain of it and sometimes lose focus and wake up, or does something else happen?

Sometimes you feel pain if you expect it, sometimes the impact makes you lose focus or wakes you up. Other times you will simply not want to get hit anymore and so you fight smarter. It's really your reaction to getting hit that determines if you stay dreaming or simply wake up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fOrceez

Right, sorry.
Nomad explains about using the opposite elements to nullify an attack, what I meant was if they shot a bolt of energy at you with intent to harm, but no elemental properties. How do you counter that without evading and taking the hit? Would it just be fighting fire with fire, and the hottest would win ?

---

another question that could be posed is it really possible to summon pure energy? Since we don't actually have any idea as to what "essence of energy" is how would we summon this pure energy? Wouldn't we just put it in the form of whatever our purest form of archetype is?( for example if we really like water elemental based attacks the pure energy would take the form of pure water.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alpha502

This is amazing, and helpful.
Now I know how to deal with hostile people once I get to the dream plane.

But what happens when you get hit in the dream plane?
Do you feel the pain of it and sometimes lose focus and wake up, or does something else happen?

---

Whenever you dream you are in the Dream Plane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by quassom

another question that could be posed is it really possible to summon pure energy? Since we don't actually have any idea as to what "essence of energy" is how would we summon this pure energy? Wouldn't we just put it in the form of whatever our purest form of archetype is?( for example if we really like water elemental based attacks the pure energy would take the form of pure water.)

---

I don't know! You tell me. Describe a pure energy attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Cusp

The problem here is that everything requires your attention to exist. If you're looking at him, waiting for him to go away or disappear, you're actually doing the opposite of your intent. By focusing on your opponent, you're causing him to be real. If you want them to go away, you have to ignore them. Turn your back on them them and put them out of your mind.

Actually, a good old punch is way more effective and reliable than the more intricate methods of dispatching foes. It's a tried and true archetype. The more complex a method you use, the more that can go wrong.

And it sounds like just a regular dream character, especially the way it charged at you when you saw it.

---

This is where I disagree with The Cusp, though I agree with about 85% of what he says about dreaming, and I learned a lot from him. In my experience DC's will disappear if you ignore them, but not sentient beings.

bumping for reference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baking Nomad

If you think this is ridiculous, please test out these laws in your lucid dream battles to see if they work or not. I challenge you to disprove these laws through your dreams.

To understand dream Battling, you must understand the Laws of the Dream Plane. Just as there are physical laws, physics, there are dreamical laws, dreamics.

First some laws of the dream plane:

1) The dream plane is made of pure energy.

2) Thoughts are pure energy.

3) There are different types of beings in dreams: DC's, dreamers, interdimensional beings, non-sentient beings, and semi-sentient beings.

a) DC's: Dream Characters. Manifestations of a dreamer's mind. They will disappear as soon as the dream stops thinking about them.
b) Dreamers: Other dreamers from Earth, the physical plane.
c) Inter-dimensional Beings: Sentient beings not from earth.
d) non-sentient beings: these creatures are alive, yet have the mind of a simple organism such as a clam.
e) semi-sentient: these are creatures that are partially aware of themselves, such as many animals.

4) We all have an Inner World. Our Inner World is an infinite world of our subconscious mind's creation. "My" dream is a dream in my Inner World.

5) The Outer World is the dream plane beyond a meeting of minds. The Outer World is another total plane of existence.

6) Each Dimension is made of three planes: the dream plane, the physical plane, the astral plane.

The Physical Plane
The physical plane is where the physical waking world is.

The Astral Plane
The astral plane is between the dream plane and the physical. The astral plane is the real of remote viewing and astral projection. In the astral plane, you perceive some of the physical plane, and some of the dream plane simultaneously. Remote viewers are taught to filter out the dream plane, and focus on the physical by keeping their eyes open. Astral projection is more spiritually focused, and intentional AP'ers (which is inducing and out-of-body-experience), will be more aware of the dream plane. People astral project in their sleep all the time.

The Dream Plane
The dream plane is a plane of pure energy. Thought appears instantly on the dream plane. Intelligent and creative people can be very powerful on the dream plane no matter what state their physical body is in.

Different types of Battle scenarios:

Dreamer vs. DC's:
If you are fighting your own DC's, you can instantly kill them all, love them all, or ignore them, and they will be instantly defeated. If you are battling another person's DC's, you are indirectly fighting that person, so see the rules of dreamer vs. dreamer, and dreamer vs. sentient being.

Dreamer vs. Dreamer:
- In this scenario archetype, attention, and energy are all key.

Dreamer vs. Inter-dimensional or Sentient Being
- The rules are basically the same for fighting dreamer vs. dreamer, but generally inter-dimensional beings are more aware of the dream plane, especially whether they are in someone else's dream, their dream, a mix of the two, or in the Outer World. They may or may not have a physical body in their home dimension. They may have been living on the dream plane for centuries, or untold millennia, therefore can be extremely powerful.

Archetypes
Archetype means our frame of reference. Here's an example: You are into magic, so you shoot fireballs at an enemy. He becomes a water elemental, and puts out your fireballs. Another person fires a gun instead. The opponent becomes a block of granite. These are examples of a countering defense based on archetype. A good example of this is the wizard vs. witch battle at the end of The Sword in the Stone. Other examples of dream battling: Dragon Ball Z, Avatar, D&D.

- Even if you ignore a dreamer's attack, you will still get attacked, because the other dreamer is sending antagonistic energy toward you which will not disappear just because you ignore the dreamer, since the dreamer is more than a manifestation of your thought.

- There is always a weakness in every attack that can be exploited for a defensive counterattack. The weakness is based on the originator's archetypes. For example: The weakness of fire is water.

Attention
Attention is focusing energy. If you give another dreamer too much attention, they can actually steal your energy.

Example: Tooth moves to attack me in slow motion, with a giant zombie fist. I am fascinated yet disgusted with the detail of the zombie fist. I can see the rotting flesh, and even maggots crawling in it. I want to puke. BAM! He socks me right in the forehead.

So, in the example, I gave so much attention to his fist, it consumed my thoughts for a split second, and he was able to get a hit in. In other words, he stole my energy for a second by stealing my attention.

Energy can be pulled using attention in any way. Using Cuteness, Beauty, Sexiness, Disgustingness, Size, Ugliness, Hilarity, Sympathy, Fear are some techniques to name a few.

Solution: Learn how to be aware of everything. Do not allow any one thing to draw your focus for too long. This can be likened to Perseus using a shield as a mirror so as not to look into the face of Medusa.

Energy

The entire dream plane is energy. Therefore ignoring another dreamer's attack is not effective. Energy gives us strength and endurance. There are basically two types of attacks, a pull attack, and a push attack. A pull attack is taking the opponent's energy away.

Dreamer vs. Non-sentient beings

Non-sentient beings that will attack you are parasites. The benign non-sentient beings draw energy from the ambient energy. There are also non-sentient beings that draw energy from these, like animals, and so on. These parasites attach to you, or infect your dream body and feed off of your energy.

Dreamer vs. Semi-Sentient Beings

These may be beings evolving toward sentience. They are like many of the animals, such as dogs, which have a level of sentience, but not to the level of elephants, dolphins, or humans. These may be simple minded, but they may have been living on the dream plane for a long time. They may attack in packs or swarms.

---

Hi Baking Nomad,

Interesting theory and good read. I enjoyed it.

I've read from a lot of books and websites. I've watched a lot of instructional videos as well as movies. I played AD&D every Sunday for 10 years. I've had various lucid experiences of my own. I'm familiar with this kind of thinking.

It's one of many possible general frameworks for a dream world. It may be helpful for anyone who is experiencing something similar during an LD.

However, I can't help to wonder how much of it is subjective vs. objective.

Everything we get exposed to makes an impression on our mind. The more you get exposed to something, the stronger the impression. The more you see it, hear it, or think about it, the stronger the impression. It's something to keep in mind.

Some people have predominantly pleasant inner experiences. Not everyone ends up battling someone every time or every other time.

Some people have a very high degree of control over what happens and over how safe they feel whether in AP or LD.

You're saying that the Dream Plane is significantly objective. You'd need to objectively test your theory. Only way to put that to the test is to meet someone else there. You would both have to remember the experience and you would both have to agree on many of the same details in regards to the landscape, characters, and dialogue to prove objectivity. Else you would have to admit that it was your own private and very subjective Dream Plane. Same would be true for an AP experience.

Cool system for you though. Handle it in whatever way you find most pleasing, comfortable and effective. Do whatever you need to do to feel safe. Good that you shared it so that people under attack at least have some means of defending themselves. I'm sure they will appreciate your teachings the most.

I do appreciate that you shared your philosophy and presented an intriguing framework. You clearly put some time into arranging it as food for thought and an enjoyable read.

~EnergyWorker~

Very concise. The part about countering defense based on archetype, I must say, however can work with the opposite approach as well. If enveloped in extreme cold I prefer to become the cold so that it doesn't affect me. After trying this the first time, I awoke with a short poem on the brain - I am the cold, I am the heat, I am whatever I need to be.