So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?
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So if I see a being and get a feeling that he's not an extension of my subconscious and that I dont have control over it the way I over other DCs it's not just me being crazy? Should I trust the feeling?
I'll PM you when I have more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Frapo
I am not sure what you are referring to by "it" here. Anyway, thoughts are energy. Energy can never be diluted because everything is energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebrah
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Originally Posted by Stryke
Yes. And dreamers really are interdimensional beings. But, I use those labels to mean a Dreamer is someone in the physical plane of earth, and Interdimensional Being is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jervilan
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryke
Trust me, when you get the feeling that this isn't just another DC, you will not have any doubt, at least i don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryke
Please understand that any answer you get to this question is susceptible to bias, misinterpretation or irrationality (whether the answer is in favor of the paranormal or not). When asking such a huge question as this - which will have implications on whether you either believe in a non-existent phenomenon or disbelieve in completely true phenomenon - do not hinge such crucial beliefs on the words of any one person, and take some time to actually research whatever answers you are given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryke
I have to ask how you both know this? This completely ignores the fact that we can't always get our subconscious to do what we want. (For instance; failing reality checks, while obviously dreaming.) So I would like to know how you are so sure that just requesting "all thought forms to disappear" or simply ignoring DC's means that anyone left over is an actual conscious entity, outside of yourself (a bold claim, in and of itself).Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain FrapoI mentioned earlier that if you shout to the dream "all thought forms must now disappear" everything in the dream created from your mind (DCs included) will vanish, just leaving any other Dreamers or various beings.
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Originally Posted by Man of Shred
How easy is it to ignore a fly that's buzzing around you? You can try and try, but you are still going to be aware of that fly (consciously or subconsciously), so not being able to completely ignore something (even when trying) is not indicative of anything other than that you haven't been able to completely ignore it. It is the same as a song that gets stuck in your head, even after you've tried to forget it.
If all DC's/thought forms are manifestations of your mind, then they must require your attention to exist. Instead of ignoring, we should focus on something else, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
For example, if you replace a recurring thought in your head, like an annoying catchy song, like
IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL!
IT'S A SMALL, SMALL WORLD!
with another song, it will make the first one go away.
Now, take your fly example. Flies are entities separate from yourself. Ignoring a fly stuck in the same room with you will not make it go away, because it's not one of your thoughts, it's real.
Not true. Conscious thought requires your attention to exist. Subconscious thought does not. The dream is an amalgamation of subconscious thoughts, and even if you are not paying attention to them, they are just as able to appear and/or persist. How do you think dream content even shows up, in the first place? If I was dreaming that I sitting on a curb, just minding my own business, and a ball rolls by me, does it mean that I was consciously aware of the ball, before it rolled by? No. It means that, somewhere in my subconscious, that ball was being related to this scene, and it made itself visible. To know anything about mental schemas (as Stephen LaBerge would tell you, himself) is to know that schemas for other things/events/concepts exist in your subconscious, even when your mind is on something else. Much like LaBerge, I believe that individual dream concepts have more to do with unconscious schemas than they do with conscious thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
If I say the word "Taxi," you think about a taxi. But, unknowingly, you also think about other related concepts to "Taxi" such as the color yellow; rubber (wheels), gasoline (fuel), glass (windows); roads; passengers; etc. The mind does this, so that you can be more able to use/recall such related concepts quickly. In the context of a dream, seeing a Taxi is likely to make so many other things happen in the dream. You might loose your wallet (relating Taxi to having to pay/loose money). You might find your next scene change to be to New York (relating Taxi to a place that you know is abundant with them, like NYC). This, in my opinion - and others - is how dreams progress, and how seemingly unrelated items and scenarios are thrown into the mix with each other.
Just "not thinking" consciously about something is no guarantee that the thing will disappear. Sure, it may fall out of sight, momentarily, but any stray thought (even about something that you don't realize is related) could bring it back within seconds. It doesn't "go" anywhere.
I wish it were that simple, but it's not. The act of replacing a song in your head (or, should I say, "my" head) is much less conscious than that. I can't just 'think about another song' and have the first song just automatically goes away. I have to be so immersed in something else that even my subconscious has completely moved on (or, as Dr. LaBerge would say; until the schemas have been deactivated), which doesn't usually happen when I'm trying to ignore it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I'm not talking about making the actual fly go away. I'm talking about making your awareness of the fly go away. If it's something that is truly bothering you, to the point where you wish it would just go away, then ignoring it isn't going to just make you unaware that the fly is there. Since a fly is so harmless, let me use another example: If you have to share a cell with someone you really don't like - to the point where their mere presence fills you with disgust, or you perceive them as some sort of personal threat - then just 'trying to ignore them' isn't going to make you completely and totally unaware that they are there, even if you turn your back to them and try to forget. You can act like they aren't there, but you can't actually, down the depths of your mind, believe that they are not there.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
Now, again, I'm not saying that some of the DC's won't disappear, if you try to ignore them, but I'm saying that it is in no way guaranteed. I'm also saying that a few lingering DC's is no reason to adopt the bold belief that "this means that they are conscious entities, which exist outside of your mind" as if it is a fact. How about reality checks? If I'm ignoring the solidity of my palm, why would I not be able to push my finger through it? The easy answer is that there are many different variables that determine whether or not we can manipulate our subconscious. This is true for defying gravity, phasing through solid objects, or trying to get annoying DC's to leave us alone.
Yes. That is why I said try focusing on something else rather than ignoring the DC or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Try this in a dream:
Find a DC who says they are real, and command them to prove it to you.
dreamics
What type(s) of responses from said DC would you accept as proof that it is a real entity?Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I'm really interested in this topic and would like as much info as i can get. If there are any other sites id appreciate a link.
And id also appreciate if you guys would chime in on my Recurring nigtmare thread, it kinda explains why im so interested
What I would accept as proof is unimportant. What you accept as proof is what matters. But, what made me think other people in my dream were not DC's was firstly having confirmed shared dreams with Raven. I obviously had to accept the fact that she is real. This is how I proved shared dreaming to myself: we made plans to meet in dreams. We would write our dreams before speaking to the other or reading their DJ. The dreams are sometimes similar, and sometimes exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
After meeting Raven Knight on DV and so many confirmed shared dreams, I could not deny the existence of mutual dreaming.
I met other characters in dreams who I assumed were dream characters, but they stood out, as a real person would amongst a thousand cardboard cut outs.
Then, I met Selene.
She kept coming into my dreams, and would persist even when I would focus on something else, or tell her she is a dream character, go away. She attacked me, and with every clash of our weapons, she said, 'I'M REAL I'M REAL I'M REAL."
I had conversations with her, and she told me things I would've never thought of.
Also, there was another entity, Spike, that Raven and I kept dreaming with. He's not my DC, and he's not Raven's. He is sentient and makes his own decisions.
You can't try to ignore a thought. Thats like saying don't think about an elephant. What do you think about? An elephant. The thought will chase all over hell and back. You have to focus on something else to make it go away. Like when you meditate you focus on something like your breathing or a mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
A very interesting post. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I felt so proud knowing that I had been in the astral plane, as you called it, since i had known it wasn't normal.
I also like how you said that attention is a form of energy, I've never thought about it like that. But i guess it is possible to steal energy from things, even if that's attention.
And, according to that post, I like a push/pull method of fighting. Basically, using a small portion of your energy to change your direction and cause the energy you just used to move towards me to be redirected to my advantage. Reading that over, it seems so obvious what I'm doing, yet I'm doing it without even noticing...
Not true. When you are telling people what to think about the boundaries of reality (as far as whether or not an imaginary entity is an actual, conscious being), it is very important. I understand your idea of "well, if it's true enough to you, then maybe you should treat it as an actual thing." Hell, I would even agree with an "In my opinion, these are conscious beings, and you should treat them as such." But, when newbies come to this site, and ask questions about dreaming and the dream state, I find it kind of...what's the word...'indulgent' (I suppose) to be telling them such things as if they were factually sound. I strongly believe that there is a disconnect between the "well, if it's real to you, then maybe you should run with it" ideology that you seem to believe, and the "yes, these phenomena are objectively real (and quantifiable as actual, conscious interactions between beings)" way that you are promoting it. The fact that you don't even take the care to let newbies know that this is your opinion, and your interpretation of your own experiences is, I think, dangerous. That is why I asked you the question; because I believe my "are you a conscious entity?" test would be a little harder to pass than yours. I was (am) genuinely curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
As I asked you in your dream journal, what exactly are you allowed to discuss with the other dreamer, beforehand? I've learned to notice patterns in my own dreams, that they often have something to do with recent dreams of my own, or dream journal entries that I have recently read. Not that there is really any way to prohibit the two of you (or others) from talking to each other before writing your journals, but I would think it really interesting if the two of you sent your dream journals entries to an impartial 3rd party, before posting them to your online journals.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
'Stood out' how? In my dreams, no two DCs really ever "feel" alike, unless they are just vague strangers, whom I don't really interact with. So, in a sense, they each "stand out", for their own reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
After even one encounter, her being so vehement about telling you that she was real is a very likely reason why she continued to do so, in subsequent dreams. This is how recurring dreams work. Once an idea gains steam, it often manifests itself, in that image, over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
The mind does this often, does it not? There is a large difference between our conscious train of thought and our subconscious train of thought. Our subconscious mind takes in stimuli in its "rawest" state. Our conscious minds filter it through our biases, our latent perceptions and our ignorance. The fact that a DC told something you "never would have thought of" is more accurately stated as the DC telling you something you "never would have consciously thought of," and then you are still left making the call of whether this was because you just consciously didn't see it from that perspective (which is, by basic psychology, both possible and common), or because this DC is another conscious entity, which you are communicating through metaphysical means (which, while considerable, has very little empirical backing).Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
I believe that people should be very careful when making these sort of judgments, as it has a fundamental bearing on whether that person is mentally able to separate fact from fiction.
How do you know this? A staple of dreaming is that our subconscious mind is controlling the DC's, not our conscious ones. So of course they are going to often show their own personalities, and make their own decisions. The brain is aware of many other possible decisions you could make, and one of these is likely to manifest itself in the DC's behavior, even if it's not something that you would have consciously thought of. Sure, sometimes it is possible to control them, just like sometimes it's possible to fly with perfect control. And, of course, sometimes it's not. The ability not to be able to control a DC is (unless proven otherwise) no different than having difficulty flying in one dream and not in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
That's pretty much what I said. I guess you got hung up on it because I said "trying to forget?" I said that because it was being presented as a way to make a DC go away. Even if you are trying to focus on something else, you are still 'trying' to forget that other thing, if you are using it as a tactic for ridding yourself of a troublesome DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by saltyseedog
Thanks for taking the time to write all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I don't have time for a complete response, but as far as your question about what we discuss beforehand. (Sorry I missed your comment in my DJ.)
Sometimes we discuss simply a place to meet. Sometimes we decide something specific to do. Many times we discuss nothing, and have shared dreams anyway. I agree sending our DJ's to a third party is a good idea. The problem with that is this: it would still be unscientific, based on the honor system. Who is to say, for example if Raven and I sent our DJ entries to you, that we did not collude upon waking?
The only way to really make this scientific would be to isolate the dreamers in a sleep lab, and not let them communicate in waking life, then have a third party scientist assign them to meet up in dreams.
Raven and I have both interacted with Spike in dreams, and he does the same thing in both our dreams.
Please ask your DC's if they are a conscious entity, and to prove it to you, especially ones that seem more intelligent or independent than others.
Nice info.
I'd have to agree that there is an inner and outer world and your description about the planes and types of entities seems mostly accurate. However, I'm not sure I agree with your concept of stealing energy. No matter who I'm fighting I never lose any energy, unless they are trying to steal my life force directly. If thoughts are energy, how can you lose energy, you would be losing thoughts? thoughts are continuous unless you are good at stopping them which means a continuous supply of energy does it not?
Thoughts are energy, but so is everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonnn
As far as stealing energy, here is an example. Someone starts arguing with you out of the blue. You argue back. They use circular logic and ad hominem attacks, yet you still try to be logical and rational. After a while, you start to get really pissed off. After the argument, you feel depleted and grouchy, but you were just in a good mood ten minutes ago.
That's good that you don't get tired from dream battling.
The only way to prove shared dreaming to Oneironaut is to enter Oneironaut's dream and tell him what happened before he posts his dream journal. He's the only one who would know that you didn't collude beforehand and he would know for sure that you weren't just influenced and had coincidentally similar dreams. Maybe shared dreaming will have to be proven individually to each separate person.
I don't know about separate entities, as they can't be empirically proven and there's no way to really know for sure. But with shared dreaming, it can be proven and should be, if it's real.
Oneironaut's a really intelligent guy and one of, if not the most rational poster on the forum. I think proving SDing to him would be a huge shot in the arm for shared dreaming and really, the only way to prove it to him for sure would be to send him his dreams before he posts them. Fair enough? Nomad, I really think you should share a dream with him to back up what you're saying. If he experiences it for himself over a large enough sample period (maybe 10 dreams would be enough to eliminate any chance of coincidence?) I'm sure he'll become a supporter of it and search for rational explanations.
I'd do it myself, but I still don't know how to LD yet.
PS: I'm trying this experiment with a few other dreamers on the forum. I'll let you guys know my results, as I'm having four people try to enter my dreams and see if any of them match up with mine.
As for ignoring dream characters to see if they are real, it's obviously not a foolproof method. Because after you ignore, you have check to see if they're still there, which is the opposite of ignoring them. (Well, you don't have to check, and it's best if you don't, but to verify a suspect dreamer, it's hard not to) But ignoring annoying DCs is an invaluable tool for lucid dreamers. It lets you avoid unnecessary distractions and get on with what you really want to do. Once you get the hang of doing this, you know how it works and what to expect. Having knowledge of how this works, when you encounter a DC that won't go away despite your efforts, then you have to admit that's some suspect behavior. Not definite proof, but you have to start somewhere.
I don't like the energy analogy for dream combat. That term gets thrown around too loosely. It's more like each dreamer has a finite amount of attention, and dream combat involves tying to tie up as much of the other person's attention as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonnn
When I was encountering Gimpy, who Nomad calls Tooth, I was running away a lot. At one point I ran and jumped into some crazy white water rapids, and Gimpy said "Nice one!". He followed me in and I lost him after that. It wasn't until later that I understood that the intense white water and currents overwhelmed his senses. So much that he wasn't able to focus on me anymore.
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Originally Posted by The Cusp
Exactly... being lucid is like a mushroom trip almost... in that it's easy to get lost in detail and forget everything instead of staying focused. Staying focused takes true awareness.
I have to agree with that too. In dreams, I never get tired in or after a fight like Eonnn. Landing a blow causes an opponent to pay attention to the pain, and the more you stagger and attack the them, the more attention goes to their pain. After a while, the can't pay attention to anything else except for the pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
That may not be the only way to convince him. I agree that Oneironaut is a very rational intelligent person, though. On the other hand, I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. I state my ideas and opinions, and if people are interested, we discuss, if not, we don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by GMoney
The best way for people to be convinced of shared dreaming is for them to do it themselves. Shared dreams are often confirmed randomly through two non-lucid dreamers initially without setting intent.
One dreamer going into another's dream to make them lucid, to make them remember their dreams, or to convince them of shared dreaming doesn't work very well.
***
When Raven and I first started doing confirmed shared dreaming, someone asked us to go into his dream and make him lucid. (About 30 or 40 people have asked us to do this since then.) It didn't work. Raven and I both remembered the dream, but he did not remember anything. In the dream, he kept insisting it was waking life, and asking for a drink of water. Even Walms, who has amazing dream recall, did not remember our first shared dream. I battled him while Raven watched. Raven and I both remembered the dream. It's in the first shared dreaming DJ. Walms did not, even though his recall is excellent, and he remembers many dreams every night, often being lucid.
Walms and I have never really sync'ed up really well so that the dreams match as well as they do with Raven and I, or others. So, just because Oneironaut and I are both proficient lucid dreamers, it does not mean that we could easily have a confirmed shared dream. The most important dream skill is Recall, then Lucidity, then Control.
If anyone wants to find out for themselves if shared dreaming is real, they should pick a partner (or partners) who's DJ they love reading, and try to meet up with that person at a certain place in dreams.
That being said.... I had a dream of Oneironaut.
Hey, I had a dream once, after my kitten died, that she visited me and told me that she was always with me. Was it really her, or just a thing in my mind? It was in such detail. I remember it all. (It's in my Dream Journal) What do you think?
Why not?? If what you're saying is true, it's incredibly radical and a major breakthrough in modern science. If you don't want to become famous/rich for discovering something potentially useful and universal, I'm not sure what to say. If you really can share dreams, why don't you do it with the people who don't believe you? Why would you rather argue over theories than actually go into their dreams and prove them wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
Why is that? There's absolutely no reason why that should be the case. So you're trying to tell me that if you try to have a shared dream you can't, but if you don't try it will happen naturally? That makes no sense whatsoever. Why can Raven remember your shared dreams but Walms/Hukif can't? If shared dreaming is real it has to be universal. You can't share dreams with some people but not others - it's everyone or no one.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
You consistently decline challenges to prove your point and avoid actually providing evidence for what you're claiming. If you were arguing something impossible or invisible, I would understand why. But you're advocating a viewpoint that can be easily proven!! Why are you hiding and evading any rational explanations? If you're not going to back up your statements when you (supposedly) have the ability to, you need to stop trying to get others to believe what you're saying. Provide evidence or stop talking about it.
I like the conflicting ideas presented in this thread :D. Was the dream character the subconscious or another entity? How could you ever possibly know if it is another entity? If it isn't, what does it mean if your own subconscious attacks you without you even expecting any form of attack? Why would the subconscious seem to be against the dreamer?
Either way, I find any conscious dream character *whether the manifestation of your subconscious or not* really interesting!
And GMoney, Nomad doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. On this forum, we like to share our subjective experiences and encourage others to experience the same.