Thread: Practicing Mindfulness wrong. Active vs passive awareness.

Maybe I should have specified. By mindfulness I meant lucid living/ADA. >.< This is all really great info though and will help regardless.

Originally Posted by Brite

Maybe I should have specified. By mindfulness I meant lucid living/ADA. >.< This is all really great info though and will help regardless.

Too late

Memm, you show a solid understanding of the nature of mind, as explained by tibetan buddhism. I liked the examples you gave.

Originally Posted by Memm

I prefer the term effortless action rather than skilful effort, I think we're talking about the same thing but "effort" has a fairly negative connotation in english in my opinion and by that definition includes stress and strain and all the other things that are unnecessary.

Interesting, not once have I ever associated any negative connotations with the word effort.

The phrase "effortless action" is a bit contradictory in literal terms, as action necessitates effort to some degree.

Let's check out the definition of effort for clarity:

: work done by the mind or body : energy used to do something

: a serious attempt to do something

: something produced by work

See, nothing inherently negative about it, and nothing necessitating a harmful degree stress or strain.

Please explain what you mean by "letting go requires effort", I don't understand, to me letting go only requires the openness to let go, I don't see how effort is relevant.

Letting go is the result of volitional mental action. It first requires the intention to let go, and then it requires the mental action of letting go, even if it is simply the thought "letting go." That is mental action, that is mental effort. Of course, we are speaking in terms of the actual definition of effort and not the connotations you have assigned it. Anytime we use the mind, we are exerting mental effort. When we use the mind in ways which lead to stress and suffering, that is unskillful effort. When we use the mind in ways which lead to wholesome and pure states of being, that is skillful effort.

It also requires ardency and will if the meditator wants to make the most of his/her meditation time, which is likewise in the definition of effort, "a serious attempt to do something." I for one am certainly serious about my practice and make it a point to focus on the task at hand as completely as possible.

<edit> I thought of an analogy: if you're carrying a heavy bag with you does this require effort or no effort? If you were to let go of the bag and let it fall to the ground would this require effort or no effort?

Releasing the bag requires a degree of effort to use the muscles needed to drop the bag, not to mention the mental effort of deciding to do so. It's not much effort, but it exists nonetheless. In the case of "letting go" in meditation, it requires far greater effort because the mind is naturally giving rise to thoughts and distractions, and so the meditator is constantly having to refocus on the intention and mental activity of letting go every time a hinderance pops up in the mind. It's not as if one can just think "let go" one time and then expect to be completely free of their unruly defiled mind for the rest of the meditation. Letting go is a skill that must be developed, and over time one becomes better at releasing the arisings of the mind and remaining in a state of mental stillness, so the effort required reduces. But again, even setting one tiny intention or thinking one tiny thought requires a degree of mental effort. And again, we are using the real definition of effort and not your projection of what it entails. It's true that effort does come with a degree of stress, but when the effort is skillfully directed and it leads to wholesome states of mind and progression on the path, that is right effort.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Memm, you show a solid understanding of the nature of mind, as explained by tibetan buddhism. I liked the examples you gave.

The ideas I presented actually come directly from Theravada Buddhist teachings. I have never come across a Tibetan Buddhist teaching that effort is not used in practice, although I am a Theravada practitioner and my Tibetan practices are limited to dream yoga (I'm not much of a Mahayana man, a bit too esoteric for my taste). But to illustrate my point, here is a teaching by Tibetan Buddhist tulku Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo explaining the importance of effort in practice:

You practice Right Effort by preventing unarisen unwholesome states from arising, abandoning unwholesome states that have already arisen, arousing wholesome states that have not yet arisen, and maintaining and perfecting wholesome states that have already arisen.

This is a perfect description of the core of what "letting go" is.

http://www.tibetanbuddhistaltar.org/right-effort/

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Memm, you show a solid understanding of the nature of mind, as explained by tibetan buddhism. I liked the examples you gave.

I don't actually know that much about Tibetan Buddhism, I've read lots on Theravada and I sometimes go to a Mahayana temple, although to me while some practices might be a little different the teachings are all really the same, also after watching a lot of the teachings by Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche I've come to really like the Bon approach to certain things. Everything is the same to me, just different traditions have their own added quirks.



@VinceField

I think both our definitions of effort are equally valid because they seem to be used interchangeably. For example from your definition of effort:

Effort - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

1
: conscious exertion of power : hard work <a job requiring time and effort>
2
: a serious attempt : try <making an effort to reduce costs>
3
: something produced by exertion or trying <the novel was her most ambitious effort>
4
: effective force as distinguished from the possible resistance called into action by such a force
5
: the total work done to achieve a particular end <the war effort>


Examples of EFFORT

He put a lot of effort into finishing the project on time.
It wasn't easy, but it was worth the effort.
We need to expend more effort.
The job will require a great deal of time and effort.
Our success is due to the combined efforts of many people.
Her efforts were rewarded with a new contract.
He lost the campaign despite the best efforts of his supporters.
Even though they didn't win, the team made a good effort.
Her early efforts at writing a novel were awkward.
Despite my best efforts, I never found out who she was.

Some of these are obviously more negative and others are more neutral or positive.


Here is my understanding of Right Effort:

This is a famous story about effort

Sona Sutta: About Sona

From this you can see that simply meditating until you bleed doesn't produce results, even though a lot of effort might be put in.


Also

Right Effort: samma vayamo

"And what, monks, is right effort?

[i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

[ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.

[iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

[iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."

You can see from this that the first step is to generate desire and endeavour to do something, activating persistence for something you already want to do is easy and afterwards you may exert this intent and energy, you might sweat physically or bleed but you do it happily and without forcing any sort of self control, rather you do it because you want to.

Like even playing games requires effort, but if you ask someone if their game requires effort and work they'll tell you no because they just enjoy doing it, this is what I mean by effortless action.

Maybe we can combine the two and say that there is effort physically but no effort mentally; mental effort is replaced by intent, desire and energy.

So there is effort but there also isn't effort.

Originally Posted by Memm

@VinceField

I think both our definitions of effort are equally valid because they seem to be used interchangeably. For example from your definition of effort:

Effort - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Some of these are obviously more negative and others are more neutral or positive.

While the sentences as a whole may have a particular tone leaning towards positive or negative depending on the situation they are describing, the word effort itself remains neutral in all of them.

From this you can see that simply meditating until you bleed doesn't produce results, even though a lot of effort might be put in.

That it is why it is important to distinguish between right and wrong effort. Meditating until you bleed is probably wrong effort. Right effort can appear effortless because there is no mental resistance involved.

You can see from this that the first step is to generate desire and endeavour to do something, activating persistence for something you already want to do is easy and afterwards you may exert this intent and energy, you might sweat physically or bleed but you do it happily and without forcing any sort of self control, rather you do it because you want to.

Like even playing games requires effort, but if you ask someone if their game requires effort and work they'll tell you no because they just enjoy doing it, this is what I mean by effortless action.

Right effort is generally joyful and stressless because by definition it requires the generation of the desire and intention to rid the mind of unwholesome states and cultivate wholesome states, and the actions lead to further purification of the mind. Thus there is joy in the activity because desire and intention are aligned with what one is doing, and the activity itself results in the development further joy and other wholesome qualities of mind.

I understand what you mean by effortless action and I see no real problem using that phrase metaphorically. But I believe it is important to understand the role of effort in the path so that one does not become complacent or passive in their approach.

Maybe we can combine the two and say that there is effort physically but no effort mentally; mental effort is replaced by intent, desire and energy.

So there is effort but there also isn't effort.

In the case of meditation, there is generally more mental effort than physical effort, as one is simply sitting and not moving. The work of meditation is done in the mind, not the body. Intent, desire, and energy are the result of mental effort, and the maintenance of these likewise require effort, although when it is right effort then it may appear effortless. A case of physical effort with little or no mental effort is doing physical labor requiring little thought.

Originally Posted by Brite

Maybe I should have specified. By mindfulness I meant lucid living/ADA. >.< This is all really great info though and will help regardless.

Sooo, you were asking about mindfulness in the context of LDing?!

I guess that makes sense, doesn't it? Well, it is your thread, so howsabout a stab at derailing the hijacking and getting back on topic? Advance apologies if I happen to repeat anything said already:

Originally Posted by Brite

You shouldn't force your mind to be aware, you should allow it to right? I read somewhere that people most mistake paying attention for being aware. Maybe that's what I'm doing.

Ideally, force would be a strong term for anything you do with your mind, or your thoughts, but a gentle coaxing or relaxed invitation to self-awareness is definitely required, because mindfulness is not the default setting for how we navigate our world. You really must take a moment, or more, and take a considerate look at your interaction with your local reality.

Paying attention is a component of awareness, but self-awareness requires more than just attention... mice, for instance, are masters at paying attention, but I don't think anyone other than Walt Disney has ever accused them of having self-awareness, of being mindful. In other words, paying attention is the first step. Yes, you can look at an object, or react to a person's presence (aka, pay attention), but to determine your relationship with that object/person, or the impact of your presence upon it, and it upon you, takes a bit more than just basic attention.

Also, as an aside, I would say that passive awareness is what you practice during a NLD, if that helps you see the difference better (yes, you are aware during NLD's; just not self-aware).

I look around myself, in a room, outside or wherever I may be, and get a sense of the space that I'm in. A feeling comes to me. I don't really think any thoughts. I don't ask myself if I'm dreaming, or a bunch of other questions, because that distracts me from the feeling. The same feeling I get when I realize I am dreaming. I feel...the emptiness in the room or the vastness of the field, wherever I may be. This is what awareness is, to me. Is that forcing it?

I don't think that is forcing it at all; indeed, you might not be pushing quite enough. There is no need to ask yourself if this is a dream (save that for the RC's you should also be doing), but there is a need, I think, to really wonder about that, say, emptiness, and about your presence in it, your impact on it (and its on yours). Natural awareness is just an extension of attention, and that is what you were doing. Mindfulness/self-awareness, though, is much different, in that it includes you in that attention you are paying. This is an important difference that I probably didn't explain well, but I'll bet one of the experts will clarify.

Problem is, the more I do this, the less easier it gets and the more I have to focus and concentrate in order to summon this feeling.

This is probably a good thing, because it implies that you are attaching real meaning to your efforts with each exercise. I would keep at it, and eventually I would bet that the effort required to summon the feeling will diminish as you become more accustomed to the feeling itself.

tl;dr: Yes, mindfulness requires an active sort of awareness/attention that raises the presence of your Self in your local reality to one of active participant, rather than just observer... which matters a lot in a LD, where your local reality is you, so active participation of your waking-life presence is most helpful.

I hope that helped, or at least maybe I said enough academically incorrect things that folks will fix what I said, but hopefully this time in the context of mindfulness as a tool for LD'ing -- since that is what you were asking in the first place.

This actually clarified things up for me. Putting my actual "self" into the awareness, that is something I neglect. Thanks for addressing my issue