Practicing Mindfulness wrong. Active vs passive awareness.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That actually seems like a decent idea...maybe if the thread is scrubbed clean of all this recent crap (much of it mine), it'll find on-topic life again sometime.

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Who cares? Some may care but when a horse is dead you will not be able to kill it further... lol.

Besides for the fact that Sageous is probably saddened by the state of affairs on topics such as meditation and ada in relationship to dreaming and the general talk that threads like these attract. I for one am joyfully thrilled about the nature of these kinds of conversations. And I certainly applaud more discussion on this topic. I never quite understood Sageous' teachings on the topics and ADA. But I do understand zen-buddhism when I am actively engaged in it. Being able to merge the two seems like a yummie prospect.

I believe Vincefield was actually exactly on point. If you read deeply enough into his actual sentences you understand that his choice of words is academic. We can certainly NOT blame someone for being well-studied. But stayed in the topic of Effort and Passive vs Active awareness in relation to mindfullness. That lucidity was not mentioned is not his fould. He was not speaking of dreaming but on the topic at hand which contain in them keywords such as "Practice, Active, Passive and Awareness".

He continued to stay on topic throughout this thread demonstrated by talk of Lucid Living and Mindfull Awareness. Which in essence has no direct relationship to Lucid Dreaming. And every relationship with Mindfulness. I am grateful that someone well-versed actually elevated the discussion to a higher level. Not that I would be even more thankful if Sageous was able to tie that knot right back into lucid dreaming. But I do not think that I personally would have the capacity to understand, at this moment. Which is what the OP was hoping for (But we don't always get what we want. I think we get what we need).

Not that Sageous did not mention the word LDing. And someone could have picked up on it and expanded on it. This was actually a small word directed at the OPs effort and quite frankly, quite easy to miss for anyone else reading.

And threads are community-based forums. Talk is very engaging to the community as a whole and not necessarily relates to the OP alone. (i.e) I for one was very intrigued by the posts on mindfullness and has equipped me with better linguistic models to translate to OP (and myself) how concepts such as Right Effort and Right Meditation have everything to do with awareness. Both in dreaming and in non-dreaming. It all has it's place.

However, I admit, It was sageous effort and energy that was put in to this thread that spurred me to re-read more deeply into Vincefield's words which have quite honestly eluded me the first time. But when you actually look at the matter and this is my opinion, you see that Vince is respectfully to his point and also very quick to concede, or rather gracefully deflects any misconceptions that has arisen in the small side-track that him and Memm got involved in. I think this is likely the fruitful results of Right effort and Mindfullnes that is practiced in the context of emotions and rationality (self). If so, I certainly want a piece of that pie and learn how to achieve this! (I think we could all benefit a little bit from this ;) )

I believe everything is on course, is it not? I for one am thankful and enjoyed this thread thoroughly. What spurred my interest more deeply was mention of the Jhana. I would like to know more about this. But if it has no relevance to Lucid Dreaming then I think we would best make a thread in the Meditation forum or in Extended Discussion. I personally prefer meditation.

^^ Well said, and good points all.

In my own defense, I want to mention why I spoke up here, because you (and VinceField) are correct in saying that you ought to be able to say whatever the hell you want to say, on-topic or not, and it really does fall upon the thread's creator (and Mods, when things really get bad) to try to keep things on topic.

First, on a personal note, "Saddened" was a poor choice of words. Things written on the internet by strangers with whom I will never have personal investment do not make me sad. I did not post because I was sad. Disappointed is a better word. Anyway:

I think I made a fuss here for two reasons. First was the callous disregard for the OP and the general theme of his intended thread: when he posted the single time he did with a polite confirmation that this exchange was interesting and helpful in its own right, but not what he had intended, the only response he got was this:

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Too late :cackle:

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I thought that kind of disrespect deserved a little attention (and yes, Mods, it would have been nice if you had spoken up here -- Brite has not come back here since that post).

But that wasn't the main reason. My main reason for making myself appear the jackass was that I had noticed that all but one of the new threads in this forum were heading down the road/drain that I believe you, Dthoughts, predicted, and that route, though certainly interesting to an extreme minority of DV members, had nothing to do with attaining lucidity. I was hoping that by making a point that this forum (not just this thread, BTW) was meant to heighten the relationship between lucid dreaming and meditation, and that to altogether ignore that relationship from the get-go would likely mean doom for meditation becoming an integral topic in the attaining lucidity category. And no, I'm sorry, but an academic exchange on the meaning of effort in Tibetan Buddhist practice was a distant shadow of the practical requests of the OP, no matter how well you can semantically connect the two (a good logician can make apples and oranges seem the exact same thing -- apples are still not oranges).

I guess I was hoping to keep the concept of this forum from becoming a stillbirth. Silly me.

So, both because of this and because everything you and VinceField have said probably reflect the reality of forum communities and their innate protocols (I will likely never understand either, and I somehow do not have a problem with that), and also because I know when I am simply banging my head against an unyielding wall, I will follow VinceField out of here, and let the chips fall where they may for this forum, and for DV members' chances to better understand the relationship between meditation, mindfulness, and lucid dreaming.

P.S. And no, I won't be lured into another conversation about why ADA as a solitary practice is bad for lucidity -- I ain't goin' there again! ;)

But why sageous why :cackle: don't say something first without elaborating :D

This actually clarified things up for me. :) Putting my actual "self" into the awareness, that is something I neglect. Thanks for addressing my issue :D

I suppose everything has derailed a bit, and the topic was...not what I originally intended lol but I think everyone's intentions were in the right place :) Next time we should make an attemp to steer back to the original topic lol And good information was given anyways, but I'll hopefully be more specific the next time I post haha

It's really not your fault, this is the first time I've seen a thread flare up like this, Dreamviews is normally not so scary. Unless I just hang around in the wrong subforums. :paranoid:

Lol I just realized that this thread is NOT in the meditation subforum. We were worried over nothing :P

^^ Ohfergodssake!

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

But why sageous why :cackle: don't say something first without elaborating :D

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I have no idea what you mean here. It was a paste from another post, including the cackle smiley, and I was pretty clear about what it was from.

Wait. You know what? Never mind. I don't want to know, and I doubt anyone else does either. I'll just quietly not get your comment, just as I will quietly forget I was ever on this thread... just a few more hours of my life I'll never get back.

I've noticed one thing: You tend to not dream about things that stress you out. Many times you'll find yourself dreaming about relaxing situations. Even action packed dreams count towards this, and they tend to be enjoyable at their roots. Personally, I use passive awareness. I won't be focusing on being 100% aware 24/7, but I will be on the look out for ANYTHING odd or out of the usual. I switch back to active whenever something odd does happen. Passive is too keep me on the lookout, while active is activated right after I notice the odd happening. I even created a technique for this: CSSA. I believe you may have come across it a while back Brite.
In the beginning, I feel that all awareness is mentally exhausting. However, once you've been with the technique for around 2 weeks or a month, it starts to become a part of you as long as the act of mindfulness itself is not stressful. Some may be able to adjust quicker, others adapt slower.

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Originally Posted by OneUp

I've noticed one thing: You tend to not dream about things that stress you out. Many times you'll find yourself dreaming about relaxing situations. Even action packed dreams count towards this, and they tend to be enjoyable at their roots. Personally, I use passive awareness. I won't be focusing on being 100% aware 24/7, but I will be on the look out for ANYTHING odd or out of the usual. I switch back to active whenever something odd does happen. Passive is too keep me on the lookout, while active is activated right after I notice the odd happening. I even created a technique for this: CSSA. I believe you may have come across it a while back Brite.
In the beginning, I feel that all awareness is mentally exhausting. However, once you've been with the technique for around 2 weeks or a month, it starts to become a part of you as long as the act of mindfulness itself is not stressful. Some may be able to adjust quicker, others adapt slower.

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Ok this makes a lot of sense. I need to just stick with it for longer. I always kind of forget about it around week 2 because I can't keep up.. And I actually haven't come across your technique, but it sounds interesting! I'll definitely read into it.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I have no idea what you mean here. It was a paste from another post, including the cackle smiley, and I was pretty clear about what it was from.

Wait. You know what? Never mind. I don't want to know, and I doubt anyone else does either. I'll just quietly not get your comment, just as I will quietly forget I was ever on this thread... just a few more hours of my life I'll never get back.

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I feel a little anxious interfering here but I can't help but clear up the misunderstanding here... I think Dthoughts was referring to your closing line on ADA's negative effect on lucidity. You said "I won't be lured into another conversation about why ADA as a solitary practice is bad for lucidity". I think Dthoughts just made a joking comment to lighten things up... Of course I could've misunderstood this as well, if so just ignore me haha.

EDIT: To the OP, in my opinion forcing awareness is never really a good thing. I find that strong, forced and tense concentration leads to tunnel vision (either literally or in the mind). I experience this myself when I am nervous/stressed; I can focus very well on one thing but I lose every kind of overview. This is a bad thing for lucid dreaming; think about your most unaware dreams. I, at least, find myself doing linear stuff, utterly oblivious to my surroundings. Awareness, at least in relation to LD'ing, should be relaxed, natural and 'broad' if you know what I mean.

You are all taking this too serious. This is wrong effort guys ;-)

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Originally Posted by InnerVision

EDIT: To the OP, in my opinion forcing awareness is never really a good thing. I find that strong, forced and tense concentration leads to tunnel vision (either literally or in the mind). I experience this myself when I am nervous/stressed; I can focus very well on one thing but I lose every kind of overview. This is a bad thing for lucid dreaming; think about your most unaware dreams. I, at least, find myself doing linear stuff, utterly oblivious to my surroundings. Awareness, at least in relation to LD'ing, should be relaxed, natural and 'broad' if you know what I mean.

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Yes this is my problem. I keep getting that mental tunnel vision effect. What is your thought process when you are doing awareness? (Ok maybe not your literal thoughts, but can you explain how you feel?) Every time I try to be aware while actually doing something (like brushing my teeth, writing, or reading) I become mentally exhausted, because I end up forcing it. As opposed to relaxed awareness, when I feel that burst of wonder when I enter a room or a big space. Times like these I usually don't become exhausted but I can never quite trigger that feeling without walking into a large spacial area (like the mall or a parking lot).

Also, as mentioned above in an earlier post, I wasn't really thinking about my "self". I think that's a big part that I missed out on. I never really had a strong concept of "me". I look around and see my surroundings, but never thought about me occupying the space as an actual person. Hopefully this makes at least a little bit of sense. :lol:

I saw what you needed. Edit: I saw what I was capable of teaching. I think I have had similar hick-ups. I have brain fog a lot. But not right now to be honest.

Actual focus and intense concentration is very useful when you can adept in it. I am intensely focused on these words (innervision) and I interprate them. It takes effort. Yet, i am also aware of my surroundings at the same time. I have an inner knowing that I can make a switch to another point in space. Other websites LOL. I do not get tunnel vision!!!!

However, I get tunnel vision in other internal experience. My attention goes from the screen (surroundings) goes right back in the heart and then I am lost. And I get fear. Because I do not know what to do with this awareness. Take me outside in a public space and there is so much going on that my focus is effortlessly absorbed in my surroundings. However, I am too shy and fearful to actually insert myself into surroundings most of the time. But I am. Just not optimally. A good example is talking to girls ;) or guys. Even though I want to, directing my focus inwards gives me the ability to exert an effort without any gain. Because I can not at times find inside (quickly enough) what I want to express into my surroundings. I think a lot of the times I find mostly fear.

I don't intend to divert this thread to a discussion on meditation, but I think it useful to use as an example because in essence it's identical. So I'm sitting and attending sensations of breath. My awareness wanders and latches onto something else. Thinking, an emotion, a sound, whatever. The trick is to simply note it without criticism or judgment and gently shift awareness back to the breath. However many times it occurs. That is all.

Now let's apply that to something like mindfulness of walking. I might attend the sensation of my leg muscles throughout my stride, or the sound of my feet hitting the ground, or how my arms sway in rhythm with my stride, or how the breeze or sun feels on my face, or some scent that comes to my nose, or some combination simultaneously. Sensation(s) directly connected to my walk. The here and now of what I'm doing. If my attention is pulled away I simply do exactly what I do while meditating. Note it without criticism or judgment and gently shift awareness back to attending walking.

Just like in sitting practice, it feels like a lot of effort in the beginning, however repetition and time familiarizes the mind with the territory. By the way, awareness has no thought process. Thoughts move into and out of awareness. Thoughts are filters. Try not to overthink it. Do it. Feel it. Become familiar with it. It's a process. It's a journey. Don't worry about the destination.

@Brite
Well I got to be honest here... Even though I have some knowledge on the matter I am not good at it myself. The reason I could point out the problem was because I run into the same thing :P I know what I should do but I'm not really able to do it so far. I wish I could help you but I'm sorry :S

I just watched a Science Presentation the other day and it talked about how stress inhibits the growth of anything in us. Once stress becomes a factor; your body and its cells go into "Protection mode" which completely halts any progress or adaptation. This goes for everything in your body, as well as reality. If an activity is stressing you out, you won't make any progress. This is why you pick up things and learn alot faster when something isn't stressful. The presentation continued on to talk about how perception changes our genes and also that it rewrites our genes. It's some pretty detailed stuff. Here's a link to the video if anyone wants to watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzAGSJbZidQ

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Originally Posted by OneUp

I just watched a Science Presentation the other day and it talked about how stress inhibits the growth of anything in us. Once stress becomes a factor; your body and its cells go into "Protection mode" which completely halts any progress or adaptation. This goes for everything in your body, as well as reality. If an activity is stressing you out, you won't make any progress. This is why you pick up things and learn alot faster when something isn't stressful. The presentation continued on to talk about how perception changes our genes and also that it rewrites our genes. It's some pretty detailed stuff. Here's a link to the video if anyone wants to watch it:

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Thanks and I'll definitely check out that video. @InnerVision, don't sweat it!