Thread: (N)REM barriers - the reason of not achieving lucidity

NREM barriers also explains WILDs with the small gap on the beggining of lucid dreaming which are actually DILDs with small NREM barrier.

I believe you're talking about what I call "start-of-dream DILDs". They usually happen when trying to WILD for me, and are characterized by becoming lucid while the dream forms, but have a sense of discontinuity of consciousness, and sometimes you start out not sure what you're looking at or how you got there.

If your general theory were true, we'd get lucid a lot more in the later morning, which I think is in fact in general true. But I don't always get lucid in the late morning dozing period.

What what about those talented long-time LDers who get lucid in their early sleep cycles? Do they have shorter NREM or do they just have such a developed sense of awareness that the NREM barrier is no barrier for them?

Nfri, thanks for this: I think you're right! I really appreciate you posting your theories, along with your graphs. It is very helpful to all of us on the forum.

People like you make lucid dreaming easier to understand and then easier to achieve, I appreciate your research!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

But I don't always get lucid in the late morning dozing period.

Me neither, maybe that we going through dreamlets and then fall to nrem barrier. As you can see on the picture, it's pretty normal to have deep sleep in the late morning as well. Or the induction technique was poorly executed...

What about those talented long-time LDers who get lucid in their early sleep cycles? Do they have shorter NREM or do they just have such a developed sense of awareness that the NREM barrier is no barrier for them?

I don't claim you can't have lucid dream after NREM barrier, I just think it significantly reduces the probability of having one. Few times, I manage to have lucid in the first rem period, but it's pretty rare occurrence. Sleep pattern is very moldy, maybe there was REM deficiency from the night before, or day nap can change your sleep pattern, I don't know.

Interesting and potentially valuable stuff, Nfri; thanks for sharing! I hope you'll let us know more as you solidify your NREM barrier theory!

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

What what about those talented long-time LDers who get lucid in their early sleep cycles? Do they have shorter NREM or do they just have such a developed sense of awareness that the NREM barrier is no barrier for them?

I think that becoming lucid early in the sleep cycle (for folks not affected by narcolepsy) tends to be more a matter of patience, or perhaps comfort, for advanced LD'ers; especially for those who WILD into the first REM period (difficult, yes, but by no means impossible, BTW). Yes, your self-awareness and focus must be particularly sharp during lucid dives into the early sleep cycles, but an added layer of calm patience must be included as well in order to navigate long stretches of NREM. By comfort I mean facing the long drift through the emptiness of NREM with a sense of peaceful acceptance, or perhaps quiet curiosity or wonder, rather than things like overzealous focus, fear, disinterest, or despair. Those early NREM/Delta periods can be difficult, but they only become insurmountable barriers if a dreamer considers them as such, and cannot find a place in their minds or their lucid plans for the quiet emptiness of NREM. Uh-oh, I'm rambling...

In short: NREM barrier really only exists if a dreamer chooses to consider it a barrier. Choosing to see NREM as just another place to be during sleep is not only a good way to clear the barriers, but also adds another dimension to LD'ing.

I guess I drifted a bit off topic, and may be running a bit contrary to the OP's important theme. I do understand that NREM can make LD'ing difficult, and mapping it as Nfri did (and will?) seems to illustrate the best ways to avoid it in general, but FryingMan asked an important question, one whose answer indicates that there are indeed times when barriers are not barriers at all, but simply undiscovered country.

Originally Posted by Sageous

In short: NREM barrier really only exists if a dreamer chooses to consider it a barrier. Choosing to see NREM as just another place to be during sleep is not only a good way to clear the barriers, but also adds another dimension to LD'ing.

an important question, one whose answer indicates that there are indeed times when barriers are not barriers at all, but simply undiscovered country.

We've already talked about it... For me NREM barrier is unconscious part of sleep and it's not possible to stay concious during it. Our mind is turned off I guess and the longer it's turned off, the worse conditions to preserve intention to have lucid dream or to preserve efficiency of induction technique.

Love those graphs! I was going to ask have you experimented with different lenghts of wbtb and measured if they have an impact on the lenght of the barrier? In my experience they do.

This can also be seen from your second and third graphs, where it took you longer to fall asleep, which could be considered similar to wbtb. It would be interesting to see if you can find more data that shows this.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Love those graphs! I was going to ask have you experimented with different lengths of wbtb and measured if they have an impact on the length of the barrier? In my experience they do.

Great question! I found that the length is not so important as a level of wakefulness. For example if I stay awake in the bed for ''long time'' and feeling groggy, I'm going to fall to NREM barrier quickly after asleep. On the other hand if I do some stretching and body excercise or little jogging, the NREM barrier is weak or not at all.

Another interesting stuff I've found from analyzing my dream journal is that when I was emotionally disturbed during wbtb (for example pissed off from hassle with somebody) it always led to lucid dream. Maybe emotional disturbance make you more alert and wake, maybe... I also advice myself to go out if possible during WBTB and talk to people, for example in shop or whatever because it wakes you up.

Next thing is caffeine or sulbutiamine or anything that makes you more alert, but there is hard to find balanced dosage to fall asleep again.

Originally Posted by Nfri

Great question! I found that the length is not so important as a level of wakefulness. For example if I stay awake in the bed for ''long time'' and feeling groggy, I'm going to fall to NREM barrier quickly after asleep. On the other hand if I do some stretching and body excercise or little jogging, the NREM barrier is weak or not at all.

Another interesting stuff I've found from analyzing my dream journal is that when I was emotionally disturbed during wbtb (for example pissed off from hassle with somebody) it always led to lucid dream. Maybe emotional disturbance make you more alert and wake, maybe... I also advice myself to go out if possible during WBTB and talk to people, for example in shop or whatever because it wakes you up.

That's a good point. Staying longer usually contributes to more wakefulness, but just lying in bed feeling groggy won't be as effective and might lead to falling back into NREM. I understand what you mean about those disturbing emotions, for me it's sometimes nagging thoughts about daytime activities that have a similar effect. Wish there were more pleasant ways to increase wakefulness and trigger lucidity.

Next thing is caffeine or sulbutiamine or anything that makes you more alert, but there is hard to find balanced dosage to fall asleep again.

Yes, caffeine could help achieve that wakeful state faster and pushes up the sleep stage to lighter sleep. The dosages will vary for every person and perhaps need to also vary according to one's sleepiness. I try to stay within the 20-60 mg band to avoid becoming hopelessly alert.

Looking forward to your future experiments with this!

Originally Posted by Nfri

We've already talked about it... For me NREM barrier is unconscious part of sleep and it's not possible to stay concious during it. Our mind is turned off I guess and the longer it's turned off, the worse conditions to preserve intention to have lucid dream or to preserve efficiency of induction technique.

Well never mind, then; sorry to repeat previous conversation.

For what it's worth, though:

It may be impossible for you to stay conscious during NREM, but that does not make it so for everyone; "our" minds are by no means all turned off during NREM (I have a feeling yours is not either, BTW). Consciousness is a fairly persistent condition, regardless of our state. I think that your theory may presuppose something that is simply not true, Nfri, and that thought is based on personal experience as well as the experiences told to me by others; all anecdotal, sure, but enough when combined to imply that there is evidence of consciousness during NREM, or at least its potential. It might be a good idea to keep that in mind as you do your research, since ignoring or summarily dismissing evidence that contradicts your hypotheses is never a good idea.

Since we seem to categorically disagree on this subject, I'll try not to post here anymore (though I will still follow your thread with interest).

I agree with Nfri that, for many of us (and especially those of us new to awareness during sleep) NREM certainly can feel like a barrier--especially when we are balancing on that edge between wakefulness and sleep, want to WILD, but just feel unconsciousness tugging at us. Very frustrating.

On the other hand, I also agree with Sageous that NREM does not have to be a barrier. Enough evidence (although, like Sageous says, anecdotal) abounds that NREM is a state of conscious awareness very similar to other forms of conscious awareness--waking awareness, meditative awareness, etc. Thoughts certainly arise and there is certainly a sense of self.

I think it comes down to a matter of practice in entering the dream state lucidly, and of course natural propensity--some people will end up working harder for the same results.

What is so exciting about this thread is that Nfri is perhaps in the stages of developing a method of thinning out NREM in the latter parts of the sleep block for the benefit of practitioners who are having trouble with lucid dreaming in general.

Nfri, you seem like you are on to something I would be very interested to see what your REM graph looks like on a night when you have taken melatonin, and on a night when you have taken Galantamine. Keep us updated!

Originally Posted by Sageous

It may be impossible for you to stay conscious during NREM, but that does not make it so for everyone; "our" minds are by no means all turned off during NREM (I have a feeling yours is not either, BTW). Consciousness is a fairly persistent condition, regardless of our state. I think that your theory may presuppose something that is simply not true, Nfri, and that thought is based on personal experience as well as the experiences told to me by others; all anecdotal, sure, but enough when combined to imply that there is evidence of consciousness during NREM, or at least its potential. It might be a good idea to keep that in mind as you do your research,

You know Sageous, I surely agree with you that light sleep and possibly deep sleep stages are accessible by conciousness exploration, but I don't simply know how to do it... And also I don't know anyone who reliably can.

For me and the rest of us NREM barrier seems like stage without thoughs, memories nor dreams, just nothing...

since ignoring or summarily dismissing evidence that contradicts your hypotheses is never a good idea.

I would NEVER do this! I don't care about my theory, I just care about the truth. And the truth seems like if you're having long unconscious light sleep or deep sleep before aimed REM period for lucid dreaming, it significantly reduces chances to achieve lucidity.

Since we seem to categorically disagree on this subject, I'll try not to post here anymore (though I will still follow your thread with interest).

On the contrary I categorically agree.

Thread bump. Do you have more data? I would love to hear more Nfri! I have had some experiments that turn out as if I am getting part way into NREM (edit: but with no ZEO or similar equipment, only notes and recollections) but most cases are seemingly exiting from REM if that is possible. This morning it was REM > void/darkness > simple images clumped in middle slowly forming into a scene I could air swim through (entering REM again assumed). This was at the end of my sleep cycle before getting up for the morning. I think we would all love Sageous' continued input even if you seemingly disagree.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

This morning it was REM > void/darkness > simple images clumped in middle slowly forming into a scene I could air swim through (entering REM again assumed). This was at the end of my sleep cycle before getting up for the morning.

I think you might held lucidity through short NREM stage, which is awesome experience.

:just my thoughs: If we could be lucid during wake state (to have activated the same brain mechanism asi if you were in lucid dream lucid) we could overcome easily the long NREM barriers. But how to be lucid in waking? I don't think that knowing that you are in reality and not dreaming is enough... My though is that the key could be in lucid vivid memories from episodic memory.

But how to be lucid in waking? I don't think that knowing that you are in reality and not dreaming is enough... My though is that the key could be in lucid vivid memories from episodic memory.

What occurs to me: gamma brain waves, which (if I'm not mistaken) are often experienced only during lucid dreaming and transcendent states of meditation. The only way we normally experience this is by being aware of our state during a dream, so to have this same experience during waking . . . I don't know. It would be something quite profound, I imagine.

^^ Perhaps this experience is equivalent to what's come to be called enlightenment?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Perhaps this experience is equivalent to what's come to be called enlightenment?

I think so. I didn't want to drop the E word. What amazes me is that this comes down to a matter of understanding; changing our experiential understanding of the dream state actually changes how our brain operates in a measurable way. What I am curious about is whether or not some of the masters of mahamudra or dzogchen are able to produce these waves from the waking state while not being in sitting meditation.

^^ Never be hesitant to use the E-word (or any word, for that matter, if it clarifies your thought). People who understand its meaning and potentials will understand its use here, and people who think enlightenment is some sort of faith-based religious thing that holds no meaning in reality will not care to follow this conversation anyway -- and if they do follow it, using the E-word in a context that is not centered on monks or some form of Buddhism might help them toward understanding that it is really just a word, and one that describes a transcendental state that can be achieved through LD'ing.

Speaking of monks :

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

What I am curious about is whether or not some of the masters of mahamudra or dzogchen are able to produce these waves from the waking state while not being in sitting meditation.

They probably do produce those waves. I'm far too inept (and I supposed personally uninterested) to do so myself, but would I bet that a search of the Web will find a scientific study or two observing meditating masters practicing their art, w/appropriate wiring attached, and that those studies will find that deep, transcendental-level meditation will produce those waves.

On a personal side note, I must mention that one of the reasons I started pursing advanced LD'ing decades ago was because I was sure that it would prove to be a route to enlightenment-type experiences. I knew nothing about brain waves and such at the time, but I did sense that the transcendental potentials of LD'ing matched those of extremely advanced meditation, and, since I was completely unable to properly meditate (still am, BTW). And yes, I believed (and still do) that once I achieved that transcendental state in dreams, I would be able to duplicate it in waking-live without having to live in a cave in the Himalayas for 50 yrs contemplating my navel. Of course, here I am, over 30 years into it and still pursuing the brass ring of an LD-based state that would invite things like enlightenment. Not much of a shortcut, I suppose -- the best things are never easy.

Running a bit off-topic, I think, so:

just my thoughts: If we could be lucid during wake state (to have activated the same brain mechanism asi if you were in lucid dream lucid) we could overcome easily the long NREM barriers. But how to be lucid in waking? I don't think that knowing that you are in reality and not dreaming is enough... My though is that the key could be in lucid vivid memories from episodic memory.

Agreed, Nfri. Indeed, I believe that that by nurturing that "lucid state" during waking-life is how the sleep yogis find their way through NREM... and their entire night's sleep, and, theoretically anyway, the death process.

Not much of a shortcut, I suppose -- the best things are never easy.

You have, however, "experienced things these people wouldn't believe" (really couldn't resist), and done it from the comfort of maintaining a life outside of your practice. You managed to avoid the cave in the Himalayas as well.

I think it is a shortcut (that is how it is perceived in the Vajrayana, anyway), but the proper view and goal must be kept in mind. Not saying you don't have these--there obviously isn't one path--but without that goal, LDing becomes more of an exercise in escaping waking life or simply returning to cyclic existence.

Concerning your response to Nfri: I'm reading a book that discusses a yogi named Swami Rama who was EEGed during yoga nidra. Not only did he stay conscious throughout all stages of sleep, but he also maintained awareness of his environment (could answer questions upon waking that he was asked while in delta). I think someone like this truly does not differentiate between states of consciousness, as they are always "awake."

I manage to get lucid through exhausting visualized intend in the first REM. This implies that I'm maybe right about nrem barrier. Lesser barrier = greater chance to get lucid.

Another proof that my theory NREM stages are barriers for lucidity.

Last night I raised my acethylcholine in my brain which should led to REM stages without NREM barriers and that's what exactly happened.

I laid down feeling sleepy and relax. Soon there are dreamlets/hypnagogic/unintended vizualization or whatever you like to call it. I believe that this is the phase when you losing your consciousness and when NREM hits, you have no consciousness left.

I had little awareness left in these dreamlets. I saw some trees in the forest. The dreamlets become more vivid, which indicated me that I'm in the middle of transition into REM phase and not into the NREM barrier. I focused on the visualization and then BOOOOOM, the REM hits! The forest become real and I'm in lucid dream.

Always interesting.

After how much time of sleep did you try it and how long did it take you to arrive to the REM WILD window?
Did you use Galantamine?